As more and more minors serve time in adult prisons, a growing number are placed in solitary confinement. Officials say it's to protect the minors from the adult prison population. Some of those who served time in solitary as teens and their advocates say it's a harmful practice and a dark secret of the criminal justice system. Rock Center Special Correspondent Ted Koppel reports.
By Elizabeth Chuck, NBC News, and Deirdre Cohen and Sarah Koch, Rock Center
Courtesy of the Stewart family
James Stewart, who was arrested after being charged with vehicular homicide when he was 17, is seen in an undated school photo.
James Stewart, a 17-year-old from Denver who committed suicide while in solitary confinement, had never been to jail before August of 2008. That was when, under the influence of alcohol and marijuana, Stewart had gotten into a head-on car collision, killing a 32-year-old man.
Because of the severity of his crime, Stewart was charged with vehicular homicide – and charged as an adult. His family couldn’t make bail, so Stewart was placed in the Denver County Jail while he awaited his sentence.
There was just one problem: Since he was a minor, Stewart was ordered to be put in protective custody, separate from the adult prisoners— and the best protection the jail had to offer was solitary confinement.
Weeks later, the psychological impact was too much. After a brief reprieve from solitary to be in a shared cell with another juvenile offender, Stewart was sent back to isolation after a minor argument with his cellmate. According to his older sister, Nicole Miera, Stewart took his own life after less than 10 minutes of being back in what inmates called "the hole."
"It was stated that that when he got in there, he was pretty upset," Miera told NBC's Ted Koppel, her eyes filling with tears. "He had taken a sheet and he had wrapped around his neck and just twisted until he couldn't twist anymore."
Stewart was one of many juveniles who are in adult jails and prisons across America. Not all of their stories end as tragically as his, but the increasingly blurry line between juvenile offenders and adult correctional facilities have made many wonder if better solutions are needed for this growing population.
James Stewart was 17 when he committed suicide after being placed in solitary confinement. He is part of a rising tide of juveniles who commit suicide while being locked away in solitary. Rock Center Special Correspondent Ted Koppel reports.
For each of the past five years, roughly 100,000 juveniles have been held in adult jails and prisons, according to data from the Department of Justice.
Defense attorney Bryan Stevenson, executive director of the Montgomery, Ala.-based Equal Justice Initiative, told NBC these youths are getting unfairly harsh treatment for the crimes they commit.
"Ninety-one percent of the children who are serving time in adult jails and prisons are serving time in jails and prisons for crimes that are not murder, crimes that are not sex crimes," he said. "Solitary confinement is pretty horrible for anybody, but it's especially horrible for a child. It is psychological torture."
‘The dark secret of the criminal justice system’
Data on how many of those young people nationwide are held in solitary confinement isn't available, but a report published this past October by Human Rights Watch and The American Civil Liberties Union said the New York City Department of Corrections, for example, reported that in fiscal year 2012, 14 percent of all detained adolescents were held in solitary at least once.
"I spoke to kids. They talked about being in a cell alone, the size of a parking space, the size of an elevator," said Ian Kysel, who authored the HRW/ACLU report. "This is sort of the dark secret of the criminal justice system. ... Jails and prisons don't make available their data on solitary confinement."
At New York City's Riker's Island, the average length of solitary confinement for youths last year was 43 long, 23-hour days, according to Kysel's report.
The catch-22 of being prosecuted as adults but segregated from the adult prison population because they are still minors is literally making young offenders go out of their minds — and many of them have mental health issues before they are put in isolation, according to the HRW/ACLU report.
Stuart Grassian, a Boston-based psychiatrist who is an expert on solitary confinement, cites CIA research done in the 1950s, which found solitary confinement made American prisoners of war in North Korea go psychotic.
"What was produced by that was a person who was so unhinged, he was confused, disoriented, disheveled," he told NBC News, "They wouldn't sometimes know who they were. They couldn't think."
Kysel, the author of the report on adolescents in adult prisons, has called for youth solitary confinement to be banned and for other punishments — such as taking away privileges — to be instituted instead. Grassian agrees that this is necessary.
"You have these kids getting more and more out of control, more and more impulsive, more and more emotionally out of control because they're in solitary. It's very likely that's going to be a permanent impairment in their lives," he said. "Well, guess what? Ninety-five percent of them are gonna get out back into your community. What do you want them to be like when they get out?"
Rock Center's Rima Abdelkader contributed to this report.
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I would not treat a dog like this. sad what people will do for your own good or to keep you from causing them trouble. Why not just "put him down" down like any other animal you don't care for.
You would not treat a dog like this? Really? How would you treat a dog if it accidentally killed someone? If it wildly bit some kids on your street? I'd have such a dog put to sleep. Looks to me like these kids are paying a stiff price for doing a stiff crime. At least they get to stay alive, which is more than I'd let a dog do.
Good one Ruppert. NOT! I fought in a war for this country but things like this only grow my hatred for this country these days.
Depends on who it killed? If it killed a televangelist, no problem.
what are we doing at home to raise kids who have these types of issues? maybe the parents have the issues and pass them on to the kids? untreated mental/emotional illnesses are the #1 issue in this country. And we are not doing a thing about it.
Well, that's good to know, Warrren. Dogs should NEVER be treated badly by humans. Humans and dogs are both sentient beings, except dogs are better.
Who are you people? "Time" isn't supposed to be solitary confinement... especially not for a juvenile. I swear, some people in this country are as cruel as they are stupid.
I wish every jail cell had some sunlight let in. I think nothing drives prisoners crazy like lack of sunlight and fresh air.
Rupert Jenkins,
"At least they get to stay alive, which is more than I'd let a dog do."
It doesn't look like James Stewart got to stay alive.
What's that got to do with it? Obviously many people do.
Are you mentally ill? Apparently this kid is.
None of these offenders would have been there in the first place had they not committed a CRIME. If a jail has nowhere to put them but in solitary, in they go. I'd much rather have these damaged and dangerous teens locked up than out in the public where they can create havoc with no penalty. If they commit suicide, one less punk reaches adulthood. Now cue all the bleeding-heart responses about how these innocent snowflake angels that made a teeny tiny boo-boo should be wrapped up in a warm blanket and hugged into goodness. Not all of us think your thuggy criminal children are so cute.
He was 17, almost an adult, doing drugs, drinking and driving, and then ends up killing another man all due to this 17 yo bad choices. He made his bed (choices) and he couldn't handle the consequences of his actions.
RIP, but kiddo, you did this all to yourself.
The American justice system is based on who you are, who you know and how much money you have. Lady Justice wears a blind fold for a reason, and it's not to weight the facts, she's ashamed of what people put on the scales and doesn't want to see who is tipping them. People that aren't somebody are treated like nobody, not even human.
I'm amazed that so many have sympathy for a guy who murdered another man with a vehicle. We put dogs down who either through accident or on purpose down. He paid the ultimate price for killing another man. He was under age, under the influence and on illegal drugs. It's his own fault.
Strike out in anger resulting in the death of another person, drive drunk and kill someone...stand up...own up...man up. He just gave up...and the "system" screwed up!
Maybe if we advertise these events some of these "juvies" will realise life requires you to be responsible for your actions, and maybe the "system" will become a little more attentive!
He killed someone; he went to prison; and then he killed himself, which is what born killers do . . .
If you can't take the heat, then don't light the fire!
The only "tragedy" is that the prison officials did not put him in the general population so that he could get in touch with his feminine side and discover first hand why they call prison the "slammer" . . .
If any tears are shed, they should be shed for the victim, not the perpetrator, really . . .
Really! :-o
Kids are kids, sometimes they make mistakes! Our Judicial System makes more mistakes than not & that's not surprising since it's made up of ignorant people like Anne Stewart & jake2247. They need to be rehabilitated not just locked up & dehumanized. Think about it people...they don't all stay locked up forever & jake, you're an @!$%#.
Do you put the 17 year old that killed the baby in Georgia on trial as an adult?
For the slower folks, the reason they put him in solitary confinement was to protect him from being sodomized by the older prisoners, not because it was some type of strange and bizarre punishment, but he apparently had a temper and when it became possible to share a cell with another teenager, he went ballistic, at which point it was back to solitary confinement, and apparently he could not tolerate being by himself, so he killed again, except this time he killed himself, since nobody else was available to kill . . .
Good riddance to bad news, really . . .
Really! :-o
@Ruppert Jenkins,
Learn what an accident actually is, Einstein.
No kidding! He was all but a man and he murdered someone. Not killed MURDERED! That's what you call it when you illegally take someone out. At least he won't be on the streets again, behind the wheel of a 1.5 ton deadly weapon.
Problem is they can't put the kids into juvenile detention until they turn 18 and then move them into the adult system. Because it is a one or the other situation, the kids have to go to adult jail. Now, the same people who are complaining about solitary confinement are the same ones who throw a fit if these kids are left in with the regular adult population. These aren't kids who got caught shoplifting or painting graffiti. These are kids who have killed someone or commited heinous crimes. The options seem to come down to 1) make it possible for these kids to go to juvenile detention until they turn 18. 2) Put them in the regular adult population and let the chips fall where they may; or, 3) Put them in solitary.
Do we really want killer kids in juvenile detention with the kid who was shoplifting?
yes, and then you execute the dirtbag
I always thought that if I had killed an innocent human due to my own bad choices, I would be suicidal. It's interesting that that fact didn't make him suicidal, only the solitary confinement.
First of all, marijuana probably had very little to do with the accident. It was the alcohol. Period.
Secondly, No sympathy for killers. We can talk about "rehabilitation" when you figure out how to rehabilitate the dead victim. Bleeding heart libtards make me sick.
@Robin. Then you take all the loser punks to YOUR house and rehabilitate them with your own money. Oh, and Robin, you're a @!$%#.
I have no sympathy for self-inflicted wounds. The kid made a conscious choice to get drunk and high and then proceeded to kill someone. He got the sentence he deserved. That he couldn't deal with it is not our problem.
I hope Rupert has no children, we have too many heartless nazi's in this country already.
Our society has to find an alternative to Prison for everything. We must have options for therapy, treatment or rehabilitation in conjunction with punishment. These teens Will get out and they will be worse off after having endured the torture of prison and our society will reap the results of who they have become. Has America lost it's ability to think outside the feel good bubble? Yes, it feels good to lock them up and forget about them and why they ended up there but at the end of the day does it really solve the problem or exacerbate it?
Condolences to the family and friends of young James. This is truly a tragedy.
Our thoughts and prayers are with you.
Hmmmmm, I wonder how horrible it was for the family of the 32 year old man that was killed in the head-on collision? I wonder how much psychological torture they have been going through for 5 years after his life was snuffed out by an irresponsible kid high on drugs and drunk?
Of course our society forgets the victims of these criminals and then when something like this happens, the pity party begins. We even have those who advocate legalizing more drugs to lessen the problem. I'm sure more people will be more responsible, like this kid was when it was totally illegal for him to drink OR do drugs, when it's all legalized. The rationale is always that marijuana isn't a gateway drug. Perhaps. But when you mix pot and alcohol, THIS is what often happens.
Society has become irrational. We refuse people be responsible. We condone disrespect for elders, authority and the rule of law. We make excuses for everything and then hope that things will change. We have an ever-growing omnipotent government who tells us it can take care of all our needs. In the meantime our children are graduating illiterate. Our streets are filled with drugs, violence and murders. We have spent tens of trillions of dollars on social engineering experiments that just multiply the problems. Crime, drugs, poverty, illiteracy, illegal aliens and other problems have consumed our cities. Sanctuary cities ignore the force of law and then we scratch our heads and wonder why it's not safe to walk around Detroit, Flint, Camden, Compton, St. Louis and dozens of other cities after dark.
NO!!!!!
It's not what happened to them in solitary, it was already happening. It's what got them into prison and solitary in the first place. When we have lax social order, chaos is the results. Children being raised by single parents with little or no guidance. Our education system is a disgrace. Poverty consumes tens of millions of Americans. Drugs change, or end, lives daily. Violence in communities is not corrected, instead we reward it with awards such as "Murder Capital", or "Most Dangerous City".
Our social programs don't promote ambition, pride and independence, they encourage self-pity, dependence and apathy. A criminal government that can't even understand the simplicity of a balanced-budget promotes irresponsibility in the populace. We are told to spend whatever money we have to "stimulate the economy" and then we wring our hands when senior citizen's don't have enough money to support themselves for a year in retirement. Our sacrosanct "entitlements" and "safety nets" overflow with waste, fraud, abuse and corruption. And we wonder why things are so bad.
Is this story about young James Stewart a tragedy? Of course it is. The greater tragedy is our society doesn't have any solutions except for more of the same.
Einstein defined insanity as "doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results".
Insanity, meet society.
So - What would you suggest doing with him? Lil' Johnny is screwed, literaly, no matter what option he is given.
Head line -This kid killed someone by driving drunk, vehicular homicide is not the same as a "fender bender", driving without a license, hot wiring a car, joy-riding, or taking Mom 'n Dad's car without permission. Nope, this kid hit the big time, first time out he killed, someone - an adult, bread winner, possibly with kids of his own, a wife, a job, relatives who loved him... all who are now left bereft of his company, experience - his own kids left without a Father, like it said its not just a case of bad parking.
So, you put him in general population, with "possible" gang members, who would enjoy "punking him out" over a pack of cigarettes or just for the fun of it.
Police cannot afford to have him put in a Juvenile facilitie - not with a murder charge hanging over his head. Most Juvenile facilities are un locked facilities. and any way - even Juvenile facilities can have inmates as old as 20 - 23 years old in some states.
I pity the kid, but prison, by public pressure, is not meant to coddle prisoners, or educate them or worry about mental health issues... we have forced our government to be lean and mean when it comes to prisons, prisoners and the incarceration Industry. Hell, now with all the private party prison industry out sourcing.... many times the abuse of prisoners is done by staff.
The question still stands: where do you want to put the kid? Send him home? With a murder charge sentence waiting for him? If pressure is a problem. just think what kind of pressure Lil' Johnny would suffer under - knowing he was likely going to go to jail (with a charge as an Adult), the best he could hope for is to have time to shoot up so steroids, bulk up and may be make friends with some of the local gangsters ... see if Mom 'n Pop can afford to by him some protection before he goes into the Big leagues. If he goes in GP; without backup - he'll be passed around like a pipe of weed at a '60's commune.
From the article:
Wow! Are they treating American kids the same way North Korea treated American prisoners of war in the 50s???? I seriously doubt it. But that is the main issue, here, the info without which it's impossible to truly debate this topic. Is solitary confinement the equivalent of grounding these kids to a small space or is there something else they are doing to these kids that we need to know about? To be frank, I didn't know the kids were hog-tied. Perhaps they need to stop doing that. Personally, I'm too afraid of prison to ever do anything that could land me there, but if I ever did wind up there (falsely accused?), I can only pray they put me in solitary confinement. That's where I'd want to be, and I'd beg the judge to put me there. I don't want to be surrounded by hardened criminals. They're dangerous! And I can handle bunking in a small space. I've been camping before. I'll admit, however, that it would get kinda boring.
What a total crock of s**t this entire article is. It is like it was written for the citizens of San Francisco. Everything about it is wrong. It is disgusting that they are trying to draw similarity's to Korean War POW's and what they had to endure at the hands of the North Koreans. And they try also at one point to try to tell us that children are in solitary confinement for lesser crimes. Then they rattle of a list of serious crimes. But unless I am mistaken, juveniles don't end up in adult prisons for stealing candy or skipping school. But the writer doesn't expect us to actually think about such things for ourselves. This article was clearly written for people that don't know how to think for themselves, and simply read stories like this and have an immediate knee jerk reaction in the direction that the writer wants you to go.
And it is quickly glossed over that in New York state only 14 percent of juveniles spent any time at all in solitary confinement. And there is of course no mention of the possibility that the juveniles behavior is what landed them in solitary confinement. Because of course we all know that all children that end up killing someone, or gang raping a girl or other things like that are perfectly well adjusted members of society BEFORE they got to prison.
So now I wonder what the author would suggest we do in the future. Maybe when a 17 year old and a preteen rob a woman on the street and tell her to give them all her money or they will shoot her baby in the head, and then shoot the baby in the head and kill her because the woman had no money, we should just give them a nice cold can of pepsi and send them home with a promise to be good boys. Because we just could not put two young innocent children like that in prison for what they planed to do, and then did it. It's not their fault. It HAS TO BE someone else's fault.
Some people belong back in the dark ages...not the 21st century.......no compassion, no understanding. I guess they never made mistakes and are perfect. They had to be raised by wolves to write the evil things they write on posts such as this.
No sympathy from me. He took a life then took his own. Sounds like justice served to me.
GA Girl,
I would say that his death solved the problem of having to "rehabilitate" him. Unfortunately, the death penalty is not used often enough or imposed in enough circumstances. If you kill someone through willfull negligence then that should be enough to earn a death sentence.
@ Ruppert Jenkins post 1.1,
You are absolutely right these kids wouldn't be where they are if they hadn't done something to deserve it. Besides it may be the safest place for them! At least they won't be in general public around hardened criminals that would be abusing these kids. It amazes me how some of you can be so sympathetic to these kids and then expect us to keep your kids safe. Would you want a child that stole your car to be locked up with a child that killed his parents? We are doing what needs to be done to keep everyone as safe as possible. If you want to see a change in how we do things teach your kids this is what will happen to them if they do what these kids did. It may be the best deterrent we have. I'm glad this story came out it shows the rest of us what the punishment might be and most likely will be!
I notice it said that he was 'under the influence' of marijuana and alcohol.
The alcohol is certainly impairing, and sobriety tests and BAC tests measure CURRENT levels of alcohol.
Such is NOT the case with marijuana. The tests they use to detect marijuana are testing the METABOLITE, not the actual THC. So you will test positive LONG after the drug 'high' has passed. In fact, it usually takes 20-30 days before the metabolite gets to levels where it's not detected.
There is no reason this kid had to be put in solitary confinement 'for his own good'. They did that to free up cell space for other ADULT prisoners -- whom they could then pack in 2 or 3 or 4 to a cell. For these guys, it's simple math -- if we put the juvenile in his own cell, we lose the ability to put 2-3 more guys into that cell with him. So they threw him into solitary, to conserve bed space.
They should be sued. This kids civil rights were denied to him -- he was tortured (psychologically) just so the prison system can keep costs down.
Parents should be aware of what could happen to their little discipline problems behind the wheel of a car. It should be no surprise to anyone. Jail is not a summer camp or a holiday. It is punishment and it should feel like punishment. Perhaps if effective punishment had been administered at home, Little Jimmy would be free and enjoying life.
Incapable of doing the time? Then use your freaking brain and don't.
Right-wingers like yourself don't see the contradiction in being gung-ho for the death penalty all the while proclaiming to be pro-life.
You're not pro-life. You like death. And you want more of it. It amuses you like sports... You'd probably be in favor of carrying it out in the public square -- not unlike the beheadings your brothers-in-arms in the Taliban perform. In fact, you have much in common with your Islamic Brothers-in-Arms. You're a religious nutjob.
It's easier to STAY out of jail than it is to GET out of jail.
While I feel badly for this young mans family, he brought it all on himself.
He killed a person, and got punished for it.
I wonder how many of the posters above (and probably below - I haven't read all the following ones yet) consider themselves "Christian". I guess that whole forgiveness thing goes right out the window when talking about stuff like this. And yes, I DO understand that there has to be some form of punishment for this young man's "crime" (mistake, accident, etc), but solitary confinement for someone not even old enough to vote for those making the laws he was convicted of seems a little over the top. (I'll wait for the whole "oh you bleeding heart" group now - I'm pretty sure I'll hear from them...)
Keep religion out of this because religion couldn't save him or kill him. This kid was charged as an aullt for his crime. The family of the victim should be the one to give out forgiveness and not from you or I.
Gena, was this kid Christian?
I guess he missed the Sunday school class on the Ten Commandments.
Though Shalt not Kill.
Didn't say the KID was Christian...I was wondering about all the posters who are showing so much forgiveness...
I'm a middle of the roader but not when it comes to crime and punishment. We're not talking about a boy who broke a window or stole a candy bar. What we have is a teenager who killed someone. I feel sorry for the kid and his family but I feel more sorry for the innocent man the kid killed. Life isn't perfect and some kids are hard as nails by the time they're 13 or 14 years old. They can kill someone and laugh about it. So the kid is basically committing adult crimes even tho he's still got a kid's body. So we have to treat him like an adult. A simple solution to my mind would be to keep him with the juveniles until he becomes and adult and then transfer him to the adult population. Yes, we could have special rehabilitation centers and places like that but that cost money and who's going to pay for it? Anybody out there feel for the kid, well go ahead and start some kind or programs for kids like this, go out and raise money to house them. Then you'll see when they get to adulthood they'll be laughing their ass off at you and the weak system. It won't be money well spent. Some kids are lost cases-- that's the way life is.
genafan201-
Yes, he did commit a crime (not a "crime"). It was not a mistake. Maybe it was a mistake to kill someone, but he committed a crime when he got high from smoking marijuana. He then committed ANOTHER crime when he got behind the wheel of a car while under the influence. That is a real CRIME. Whether or not you believe marijuana should be illegal, driving after smoking it most definitely always will be as it impairs the person (it is just like driving drunk)!
Wow, so many worthless piles of human garbage on this forum. I guess that's typical for newsvine -- it seems to bring out the worst of America, the most despicable pieces of living, breathing scum that our country has to offer. And I bet most of you call yourselves Christians too.
Compassion is dead, humanity is dead. Children are throwaways and incarceration is the new growth industry of the 21st century. It's not enough to lock someone up to punish them for their misdeeds, let's put them in a dark hole until they commit suicide. If they are lucky enough to survive that ordeal, let's send them back to *your* neighborhood! Have a nice night you lunatics.
You appear to be among the heap, You certainly do not seem very Christian, yourself.
Nah warren, I wouldn't treat a dog like that either! You don't have to be ghandi to know that cages and leashes are inhumane. It's not quite as simple to see some other inhumanity, welfare, nanny state, socialism but they are just as bad!
Sometimes things, that on the surface, seem like a good idea, are horrible to the victims that we are trying to help. Look at peta, they have cause more suffering and death to animals than all other human organizations, combined.
When one of your relatives gets murdered by one of these little thugs. You can forgive all you want. But let's not pretend that religion or lack thereof had anything to do with this. The belief in an absurd fairy tale serves nobody.
If Christianity was so "forgiving" and a benefit to mankind, then we wouldn't need prisons filled with Christians and religious fanatics of all sorts.
In this case, I suppose that you could say that he got what he deserved, no one forced him to be a dope head.
Still, we have too many laws, too many in jail. We have more people, per hundred, in jail than any country in the world! Doesn't being the worst in the world give you a little clue? Probably not!
Robert J. Bentley, Gov/Alabama, do you think a child or grand child of his would receive this kid of treatment ? Regardless of the crime. It's wrong and a human right violation.
WOW, you read the article and came up with that? ouch.
Epinnoia,
Uh, I am an agnostic. I completely support a woman's right to choose abortion. I am not a religious right wing nutjob. The fact that I believe in true justice does not mean I am crazy. I don't believe that $2,000,000+ of taxpayer money should be used to house a person in prison for life. I also don't believe that killers should be given a second chance to kill again. Killers with no regard for other people's right to life should be executed in short order. A person who willfully gets behind the wheel of a vehicle and kills others should face the death penalty.
anne stewart,
it is people like you who make me fear / loathe the society we live in.
I find it amusing how you progressive liberals call crimes "mistakes" or "accidents". Putting a shoe on the wrong foot is a mistake. Spilling a glass of milk is an accident. Willfully getting behind the wheel of a car while impaired and taking someone's life is a very bad choice. People who make these bad choices and take another's life should forfeit their own.
I'm glad so many people have moved the execution bar as low as manslaughter. The teen involved in this case was grossly negligent and should have been punished, but the bloodthirstiness on display here is sickening. For those who have decided that this is a cut and dry political issue of some sort, I can guarantee you that people from every point on the political spectrum drink and drive. Most, fortunately, don't kill or injure somebody, but polling consistently indicates that between 10-20% of those asked report driving while impaired in the last year. Over a lifetime, you can bet that a majority of the population has at some point gotten behind the wheel when they shouldn't have.
I do feel sorry for the teen's family. Losing someone so young and unexpectedly is sad and difficult. HOWEVER, I feel worse for the man who was killed by this teen. As someone who knows first hand how it is to get that midnight call and realize that last goodbye you said to your loved one will be the last one you ever say, I think many of you are forgetting the true victims here. They do a great job of ignoring the man he killed. This man certainly had parents, possibly a spouse or significant other, possibly children, siblings, nieces/nephews. All of you leaning toward he should have been given a slap on the wrist and had his whole life ahead of him... what about the guy he killed? He didn't have his whole life ahead of him? 17 isn't too young to understand you can't do stuff like this. I love how at 18 you're magically an adult who can vote, die for your country, or make any legal decisions, but at 17 you have no clue what is going on.
lol...
Of course not. That's what dope advocates say. Still trying to do your obsessive 'legalization' push here, eh stoner?
more lol...
Trying to solve this problem by making new types of prison facilities for juvenile offenders is like trying to stop a flood raging down a canyon by putting up a tennis court net. One stops the problem at the beginning, not at the end. Society must change. We have to begin valuing life (all life) beyond anything else. What causes a child playing Superman and pretending to save lives, become a murderer or lost in drugs and alcohol? For millions, it is society. The parents are involved, because they are a part of our very very sick society. Education should be an equalizer as much as possible. We have to actually value the lives of our children. We need to step up and away from materialism and money. There is no other option. We cannot continue like we are. Every child in every classroom should be an important part of his class, his school and his community.
Ruppert,
You missed an important point that the article mentioned - 90% of the juveniles that are incarcerated are not locked up for murder or sexual crimes. Solitary confinement would make any person lose their mind. Such confinement is an archaic and brutal way to "rehabilitate" a person.
In the Western world, we have the highest lock-up rate and we still have a high rate of crime. Our system of "correcting" people is not working.
For those of you who think it is ok to put a child into an adult prison, think of this. If it is ok for a 15 year old to go to a prison, is it ok for a 15 year old to vote, get a driver's license, go to a bar, get married. If you are going to treat children as adults when they are bad, how about treating them as adults when they are good.
After reading so many clueless posts, I felt obligated to tell it how it is.
I was a Corrections Deputy for 5 years in Oregon. I don't know about other states, but in Oregon, a law was passed that if juveniles committed certain crimes as 16 or 17 year olds, they would be held in county jails. This law was the Measure 11 law. It is only for violent person to person crimes like Rape, Murder, etc.
People need to remember that not every county has a juvenile facility. The closest juvie facility to us was about an hour drive from our jail. If we had extra staff to transport the juvie (as long as they were not being held on a Measure 11 crime) we would do so. If we didn't, we had holding cells in our booking area that were able to be used. The 2 holding cells were normal cells with a bed, toilet and sink. We were able to keep a close eye on them until they departed our facility.
When we did house Measure 11 juvies, we did keep them separate from the older inmates. We did this primarily for the juvie's safety. Older inmates that have been in the system awhile know how to extort first timers in jail. We had a small cell block with 3 cells, 2 people per cell, that we would house them in. They had a common area within the cell block "the dayroom" that they could spend time in. They also were kept separated in the yard, and they weren't allowed to go to activities with older inmates. We made special arrangements for the program people (usually AA and Church) to come back to have separate meetings with the juvies.
I remember while being at the Academy, one of the things we learned was the profile of the highest suicide risk inmates. The highest suicide risk group was white males who had never been in trouble with the law before, and were charged with "Measure 11" crimes. This fact was confirmed by our head of the Mental Health division.
As far as the "the hole" goes, our "hole" was the rubber room. When we sent inmates to the "hole", it was to cool down, not to stay in for a long time. When I toured one of the state pens, there "hole" was a separate block that only had single cells in them. The inmates were not allowed to be out at the same time. They took their turns separately. There was a dayroom that each inmate could use, and they usually spent their time walking around and talking through the door to the other inmates on Administrative Segregation. Ad Seg is the term that the inmates call going to the "hole". The "hole" is not some dungeon in the basement with no light or anything else like you see in the movies.
The one thing that scared me was I saw more and more juvies coming through our jail charged with sex crimes (Rape 1, Sodomy 1, etc). These kids had the attitude of "I want it and I want it now!" Not just with sex, but with everything. Today's kids seem like they want everything now and to hell with the consequences. None of the kids seemed like they understood what is was like to work for something. I am not refering to the sex part. I am definitely afraid of what our world will be like in the future when the I want it today crowd is running the show.
I know our legal system is not perfect, but it is all we have. I could go on with what I think is wrong with our system but I will save that for another day.
I definitely think that jail should have watched this kid closer. He fit the profile for someone who might take their life and the staff should have had Mental Health in to talk to him before he went to seg in the first place, and followed up with him on a regular basis.
Unfortunately I don't have a solution on how to fix this because so many of the things in our legal system are screwed up. Hopefully this sad case will start some dialogue on how to start fixing our broken system.
Ok we should listen to the liberals and take them out of solitary confinement. Instead, let Big Bubba and the rest of the black panthers gang rape these guys. LOL
Did you not hear that 90% of these kids did not murder or sexually assault anyone? Open your ears people.... They need to be rehabilitated because most will be let back out into our society...Solitary makes them more violent!!!
If you put him in gen pop, he will get raped or beaten, maybe mom and dad should have taught him right from wrong. if not, no loss. dont like jail? dont commit crime...duh
What I'm wondering as I read many of these posts is how many of y'all who are in the "he got what he deserved" camp would still be saying that if this boy was your son, grandson, or brother? And if you are going to respond to this post, please think it through carefully and respond honestly.
This kid...and he WAS a kid...acted stupidly. Like many teenaged males, he failed to think things through, was under the influence (which has NEVER been a great intellectual enhancer), and caused the death of another human being. He had never been in trouble before, wasn't a gang member, and was by all accounts a typical 17-yr-old kid who was going off on the wrong track. Did he belong in an adult jail? I doubt it. He should have been in a juvenile facility where he could have been receiving substance abuse and psychological counseling, some "tough love" guidance, and a shot at turning his life around.
Should he have had to serve jail time? Yes, but not in an adult facility. Paid restitution? Absolutely, and apologized face-to-face to the victim's family, acknowledging to them and to himself what he had done and how much damage his choices caused to his victim's as well as his own family.
And if you asked the family of his victim I doubt that they would think this young man's suicide and the mental anguish that caused it was justice at all. Another life was lost and it did nothing to bring back their loved one. Not everyone thinks that an eye for an eye equals justice. Some people believe that mercy should be part of justice...just like Jesus commanded. Some people believe in second chances even for those who did things that got them put in jailor prison.
Back in the day, prisons used to be about rehabilitation - turning inmates' lives around through education, skills training, and "tough love" so that they could become productive members of society upon release. A lot of churches and other religious organizations spent a great deal of time and money reaching out to the inmates via evangelizing and counseling. Much of the time all of this together worked.
Enter the prison corporations, which have no interest in turning inmates into productive citizens, not when they need them to be back in as soon as possible to keep their beds filled. Every filled bed is around $100K per year of taxpayer money. And corporations are branching into the juvenile prison system, so don't expect any efforts to educate or counsel kids who get into trouble...not even the ones who didn't hurt or kill anyone. Nope, your kid gets caught committing petty theft or vandalizing he or she gets incarcerated in a place that will treat your child the very same as if he or she had committed the most heinous of crimes.
Most of people commenting also seem to forget this kid was being held Pre-trial.....Yet they already have him guilty of Murder 1 on the way to the chair...
I guess none of them ever had a drink or there Prozac and drove?
Just because you haven't killed someone doing that "Yet" doesn't mean you never will....
Lets save the torture until at least after conviction.
Because solitary confinement with the light always on(resulting in sleep deprivation) and white walls (resulting in sensory deprivation) and not even a clock to tell what hour its going on is most definitely torture...
And to all those seriously wishing this on people, you will get yours in this world or the next.
I guess no one on this post gives a fvck about the man this "child" killed. To hell with him. He's dead and that's old news. Now, how can we make sure this "child" has a happy and wonderful life? And also, he was awaiting SENTENCING. Don't you have to already be convicted of a crime in order to get a sentence???
No, that's what rational, reasonable doctors and health experts say.
Ignorant, shallow-minded, "Reefer Madness" type propaganda is the only reason marijuana is not legal already.
I'll bet you are just fine with alcohol and tobacco being legal. You need to explain how marijuana is worse than those two. Then we can examine your real knowledge on the matter.
Well this kid killed a person and was charged as an adult. he should have been placed with them. not saying it's a good thing for kids to be in solitary, however it's not a good thing they are in jail, but should kids get away with adult crimes?
No one's talking about them getting away with a crime you tard, its about being humane, something the Americancriminal justice system lacks.
This is a kid that got drunk and killed someone in a car accident, not some predatory monster that stalks and kills his victims, or crazed junkie that kills for the $10 in your pocket.
I'll bet 90% of us have gotten drunk and driven a car at least once in our lives. How does he deserve this and not us? We rolled the same dice and got lucky.
There is no such thing as "adult crime".
There is just the crime on one hand, and the age of the perpetrator on the other. And you have to consider both when you hand out "justice".
Not me...
Prison in general is no place for a child. Children should not be tried as adults. They're not adults.
"I'll bet 90% of us have gotten drunk and driven a car at least once in our lives. How does he deserve this and not us?"
I have never gotten drunk and drove. And most people are law abiding citizens. He was a MURDER. Don't do the crime if you can't deal with the consequences of YOUR actions. He was a criminal. Criminals belong in jail. Had he been placed in a bunk section or cell with an older inmate and gotten injured his parents would have been the first to cry foul and file suit.
Innocent until proven guilty.
he was 17 and made a bad decision...did u know all about the responsibility of life when you were a boy? did you never drink with your buddies when you were young, even once...he was 17..not even an adult...not excusing his bad choice, but he was barely a kid...i am so sorry for his family
Sorry, but most of us sympathize with the victims, and not the criminals. You'll get no tears from me for these little delinquent monsters.
He was 17 and people argue he was a "child/minor". Ha he been 18 he would have been an adult, period. I am not sure who figured out that ther eis a switch in the brain where a "kid" is a minor at 11:59 PM the night before their birthday and an "adult" at midnight when they turn 18. 17 is more than old enough to understand right from wrong. He had a valid driver's license which means he was fully aware of the laws reguarding drinking and driving. He killed someone; I have no problem with the idea he was tried as an adult just as I wouldn't have an issue with any drunk driver who killed someone to do time as well.
Sure, he made a poor choice and is paying for it. Along that line I agree that a maybe a mid-level prison for these older teens who get tried and convicted of adults might be a better option. Somewhere where they are safe from more hardened older adult criminals (until such a time as they are old enough to be sent to the adult prison), yet can be given what little freedom to move around as they are able while in prison.
Many owners and workers in the prison system, especially in the privatized prison system operate on the GOTCHA system.
Once you are convicted, they GOTCHA, and they can treat you as inhumanely and as humiliatingly as they want to.
You can wind up given to a private corporation, for example, to be worked as worse than a slave. By comparison, slaves have rights. Prisoners do not have rights.
These GOTCHA prisons are an obscenity in America and should be restored to government control where rules prevent GOTCHA treatment, at least in most states.
1antelope, he did not get the same punishment as an adult, he was more harshly treated--because an adult in custody would not have been placed in solitary while awaiting sentencing (odd that the article leaves out the actual conviction. . . and I really wonder why this offense would have been heard in adult court, seems like a situation where juvenile proceedings would have been appropriate). Solitary confinement is a very serious problem in adult prisons as it is because it is so psychologically debilitating.
Can't do the time, don't commit the crime!
Teenagers make mistakes all the time as the don't yet have mature judgement, and you I take it are a the pure one that never did a wrong in your life or put anyone in harms way due to your lack of judgement? You Sir are nothing but an ignorant fool!
Wow, aren't you the judge, jury and executioner! He was a teen who made a grave mistake and should have been tried as a juvenile in this case. He didn't set out to kill someone.
By the way, a MURDER is a group of crows. But, somehow I think that will fly right over your head (no pun intended, but hey it works!)
I'm responsible for my own actions... Just like everone else! By the way Paul Marks, your educations is showing when you resort to name calling.
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that in the United States, we aren't considered "mentally mature" enough to VOTE FOR GOD SAKE until we are 18, but we have tried and convicted children as young as 10, 11, 12 as ADULTS, with adult sentences. Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with letting them off with a slap, but how do you reconcile holding children accountable for some acts when they legally can't do others (vote, drive, open a bank account, etc., etc). It just doesn't make sense to me.
I've never driven drunk either. However, I had a family member MURDERED (yes, murdered, because driving drunk is a choice you make) by a drunk driver in the late 70's. He was my God father and my cousin. It changed our family forever.
Drunk Drivers get zero sympathy from me, no matter what their age.
pj,
"He was a teen who made a grave mistake and should have been tried as a juvenile in this case."
I agree. Isn't that why we established a separate system of juvenile justice to begin with, i.e. out of the recognition that children are not adults and do not think like adults? Unfortunately, our juvenile justice system seems more and more to be going by the wayside. We keep trying children as adults. What kind of society are we?
Sorry, but this person killed another person. Unless he can give the life back to the person he murdered then he has no sympathy from me. In my almost 40 years of life I have never had a sip of alcohol. It's not that difficult of a choice and I can say I have never killed anyone because of it. Sorry, but those that drive drunk have no regard for anyone else.
DarkShadow,
"In my almost 40 years of life I have never had a sip of alcohol."
That may be why you lack sympathy.
Your missing the point people, it has nothing to do with the crime a person commits, it's about the crime of a failed system letting people die or go crazy by being treated inhumanly. Like other country's with dictators, dictator saddam hussein ring a bell ? Guess what, America is no better, maybe even worse.
If drinking alcohol makes me have sympathy for a murderer then I am even happier that I have stayed away from it. I have lost people to trash like this that only care about themselves and are willing to risk others lives so they can feel good and party. I have no sympathy for people that kill others just so they can feel good losing control.
the "kid" that shot the baby in Georgia was 17. Do you put him on trial as an adult?
I addressed that at 26.3 I do not believe that teenagers are children. I think it is an insult to call them children.
DarkShadow,
"I have no sympathy for people that kill others just so they can feel good losing control."
I was almost killed by a drunk driver while riding my bicycle back in 1972. I got to spend 2 weeks in the hospital, but I would not say that I had no sympathy for the guy who hit me. I actually felt sorry for him. Alcoholism is a medical condition, and he was obviously an alcoholic.
should he have received the same treatment for getting drunk, driving and killing someone, as the teen that shot a baby point blank?
pj,
"I addressed that at 26.3"
Where would that be located?
By having no sympathy, kind of makes you like one of those people, and if sober, you may want to do a little soul searching.
The sick basta-tds would like to see them in there, my cousin was in for weed over a year shortly after he got sick they would not let him see a dr he tried over and over he lost 70 lbs, was skin and bones, they still never let him, told him to go have a sh_t all the time he was beat up in there for defending some young lad that a certain eithnic group of guys would take his food on him and not let him eat they beat my cousin 6 of them he was to sick to defend himself , when he got out he went straight to the hospital he died within 6 weeks and there is lots in there forced to pull their own teeth cause they will not let them get help.
Comment #26.3 Notice at the bottom of your comment there is a number. Follow the number.
They are children at 17 cant drink cant smoke cant vote
Trying children as adults was at first a desperate attempt to prevent gangs from recruiting kids to do their dirty work. The kid would receive a lenient sentence through juvenile court and be back working for the gang within weeks. Any adult member of the gang would be tied up for years in prison for the same crime.
It was the wrong decision then and it is still wrong today. Our local community and surrounding counties took a different approach. We used the old racketeering laws( left over from the 1930's mafia days) to sentence adult gang members to decades in prison in place of the few years that had been the norm.
Simple charges such as contributing to the delinquency of a child would now lead to a very lengthy prison sentence for identified gang members. Their once proud and infamous gang tattoos suddenly became the noose around their necks.
Trying some children as adults is as illogical as trying some adults as children. There will never be a psych test to accurately establish the maturity level of either until we learn how to read their minds.
Until that day, the only sensible approach is to establish a definite age where we believe the majority of people enter adulthood and leave childhood behind them. No more bull@!$%# as the age of 18 for some adult responsibilities and the age of 21 for full adult responsibilities. One single age to establish full responsibility as an adult on a national level would end all confusion.
I've heard that 13 yr. old girls were allowed to marry in the early 20th century. It was quite common at that time. My Grandmother married at that age in 1912. I was a teen in the 60's. I know that many of my 16 year old friends were much more mature than many of today's 21 year old youth.
That is no reflection on the youth of today verses the youth of yesteryear. However, it is a reflection of great change in society that must allow changes to establish the most accurate age of adulthood. The issue must forever remain fluid.
Now, to address the hard-asses on this forum. Most of us did commit the same crime as this kid when we were teenagers. Driving while drunk(or high) was much more prevalent in years gone by. No, we were not much more clever than him. No, we did not handle our alcohol much better than him. We simply got the luck of the draw and this kid drew the short straw.
How convenient to sit on our much older and much fatter behinds to condemn this teenager for an act that we repeated over and over again when we were his age. There, but for the grace of God, go you and I.
Tell that to them. I was not a "child" at 17. I did smoke and drink. I even smoked pot (which nobody "can" do) I also worked 25 hours a week and went to High School. And, OMG!, I also was having sex in a responsible manner.
Coddle your teenagers all you want, but don't call them children. If you treat them like a child, they will act like a child all the way into adulthood and beyond.
pj,
"Comment #26.3 Notice at the bottom of your comment there is a number. Follow the number."
There is no comment #26.3 on this page. Is it on another page?
SERIOUSLY????
Ok, my eyes are bad, it is 25.3, but "There is no comment #26.3 on this page." would lead me to go to the next page.
Commonsense101,
"There, but for the grace of God, go you and I."
So true! I often say that to myself.
pj,
"SERIOUSLY????
I hope not."
See my comment #25.5. In your favor, I might suggest that maybe your browser uses a different numbering system from mine.
pj,
It looks like we got that straightened out! Have a nice day!
I actually changed it when I realized I misread, i didn't realize people could see comments before the edit time was up. See my comment about my tongue in cheek brilliance in #25. . :)
There should be no age limit for crimes...you do the crime you get tried like everyone else no matter what your age is. If found guilty off to prison with the general population. If you are old enough to do a crime you are old enough to pay the full price if caught.
Oh and personally I think every cell should be built like solitary. Just a cot, a sink and a toilet and an hour a day for exercise.Think of the space saved and how many more could be put into a prison with the same space.
Prison is not county jail where this one was, another case of propaganda from guess who!! If this young adult was in prison chances are he would have been in solitary though for his own protection. There are many prisoner whom would love to have someone like him for a love toy. But let us say you bleeding hearts let this one go and also the next one, and so forth. What is the point of having laws then?? would it have made a difference if he killed a group of 6 year old kids. Then what outlaw 17 year old drivers?? with high capacity cars??
For Christ's sake. Another gun nut trying foolishly to insert gun rights issues into a topic that has nothing to do with guns. Give it a rest, Pal. Drape provocative panties on your gun and make passionate love to it. Nobody will know. Nobody gives a damn. Indulge yourself with your wildest fantasies. Just clean the damn thing of all stains before you proudly present it in public again.
Dan, he deserves it because he KILLED someone.
What about that don't you understand? He took an innocent persons life.
Janine, would you want to be held to the same accounts if you made a mistake (huge, yes, but still a mistake)? What don't YOU understand? He did not set out to kill someone. He did not plan it. In reality, if you look at the definition of "innocent" , the killer was likely more innocent than the victim.
17 is not a child, but an adolescent. Some people are not finished developing until 25. Adolescents are not adult. They are not as capable as an adult in reasoning and executive functioning. It should be a mitigating factor in sentencing.
The question of murder is also a bit off. He did not have malice and an intent to kill. Manslaughter is a far better analysis. I would agree with a blended sentence where time is spent in a juvenile facility until the state can place him in an appropriate adult setting.
The question really should be why he was classified into a level 3-5 setting, when he should have been set at level 1-2. Offenders at level 1-2 are not going to rape a kid so that they can go back to a level 5 and pick up a sex-crime rap.
As to the tone of the comments in here, it is shameful. The amount of hate and disrespect is glaring, and several of the comments not collapsed by the community are as bad as those that were.
One person though did point out something that we all should look at, there is a distinction in our system in the treatment afforded people of means, as opposed to people who can not afford the best criminal defense.
Get over it libbies. The law says they can be tried as adults. Case closed.
Pj, if I ever kill someone I would EXPECT to be put in prison for the rest of my life.
Just like this kid did.
He did not set out to kill anyone. No drunk driver ever does.
But he DID.
The article plainly states that he was awaiting trial, and that he had not yet been convicted of anything.
There is absolutely no reason to keep kids in adult jails while awaiting trial, which strips them of their rights under the law before they fave been found guilty of anything.
If the US would just agree to join all but 3 other nations in the entire rest of the world and ban trying juveniles as adults, it would be illegal to jail kids in adult prisons even after being found guilty too.
Personally I don't buy the argument that says that some crimes are "adult" crimes no matter the age of the perpetrator.
Did you know that all of the other nations on our planet except Iran, Israel, and Somalia consider the US to be the most-major human rights violator on the planet because of our treatment of kids accused and convicted of serious crimes?
What we are doing is flat-out illegal under the UN Rights of the Child covenant.
When I was a kid the average first-offense fatal drunk driver got 2 years, which would not need to subject a 17 year old to an adult prison, as the juvenile system can hold someone through age 21.
I think perhaps we need to seriously consider establishing an intermediate young adult judicial division which would protect the human rights of young people convicted of crimes, one which might even include first felony young adults as old as the age of 20 or 21, where the focus would be on rehabilitation rather than purely on seeing how savagely that we can destroy someone.
I can see older kids getting longer sentences than younger kids, but we still have to give older kids some benefit of the doubt and another viable chance at life in order to be in compliance with the UN Rights of the Child covenant.
And there is absolutely zero reason to put a kid charged with a crime in an adult prison before trial because here in America we are considered innocent until found guilty, period, no ifs, and's, or but's.
"Sorry, but most of us sympathize with the victims, and not the criminals. You'll get no tears from me for these little delinquent monsters."
Spoken like a true ignoramus. I sympathize with the victim and the families of the victims but having worked with those who have been raped or in war, I can tell you this, their recovery only starts when they stop considering themselves victims. In this society, the majority of people like being victims of one thing or another. If it's not the boss or the government, it is the criminals or the gun-nuts. If it's not white conservative Christian men, it's they immigrants or racial minorities. Fear and victimization is ruining this country not gay rights and the corporations. One of our most sacred beliefs, justice, has turned into a circus of revenge and victimization. Tell me, how can justice be served when a jury has to listen to 40 people screaming for blood in a penalty phase of a trial when there is only the perpetrator to stand by himself? Most would say it is justice; it is revenge. I have worked with teenagers for years, some victims and some criminals, and one thing is crystal clear; they are not as logical in their thinking processes and they arer more influenced by their immediate surroundings (living conditions and human contact) then are adults. It's been said that the quality of a society is determined by how they treat their criminals. Instead of comparing our prisoners to how it was in the gulags of the Soviet Union, we should compare with how they are treated to society in general. Most will get out of jail some day. There are some who are predators and should never get out, however, those that do will be coming to our neighbor hoods. I would rather them become productive members of society than people bent on revenge because they have been treated by vengeance. It is only the person who enjoys his victimization who keeps on going through his life knowing nothing but fear and vengeance. They are both emotions which make slaves of those who live with them.
Here are some more stories on the case perhaps you hard-liners should read?
http://m.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/nov/25/family-sues-city-5-million-troubled-teens-suicide/
Even the victim's widow feels that the kid got a really raw deal.
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_10871303
http://cjdc.org/wp/aboutus/cjdc-background/
to post 2.44
"He did not plan it. In reality, if you look at the definition of "innocent" , the killer was likely more innocent than the victim."
He willingly got drunk. He willingly got behind a steering wheel. Any IDIOT has heard of the COUNTLESS stories from the past of what problems and tragedies can happen from those combinations! Don't GIVE me the "poor innocent drunk behind the wheel that didn't plan it" bit! You and others that think like this are pathetic!
The prison staff is at fault here for putting this teenager in solitary without watching him. They knew he was profoundly upset. This is clearly neglect and carelessness on their part. Time-outs don't hurt anyone, if they aren't abandoned.
This child has experienced neglect all of his life, apparently. His parents clearly allowed underage drinking, and, like many neglectful parents, only get concerned about their child when they can fault someone else.
Yes. Let's worry about the poor, innocent 17 year old "kid" that apparently thought he was old enough to get drunk off his ass and mow an innocent person down. I swear the sheer stupidity bubbling out of this article makes me want to scream. If they're tried as an adult, if they take a life, then by all means, have at them. I'm tired of this system favoring people who kill others, meanwhile you bleeding heart morons are crying and sobbing over the poor poor murderer!
This is why Prison Thugs have better health care than the general populace. Way to go, team bleeding heart. Like I said. He was 17. He needed to go where all the adults are. If you're tried as an adult, if you make an adult decision and it costs someone their life, then you better damn well be prepared for the consequences.
Bobster: Everyone does not eat, breath and s^%# political party! Someone's opinion may (or may not) have a damn thing to do with their political party. I don't consider myself either a Repub or Demo. But I still have an opinion. I have an opinion about this, but I don't care to share it because nobody on this "vine" has any respect for someone with a differing opinion. We have "big fish to fry" in this messed up world of ours, but unless we learn respect for each other, it will not make any difference what we get accomplished. When did that change? I would no more call people names or wish people dead than the man in the moon. When did that become OK? Blah. Now, case closed!
Robert, whoever hired you to work with rape victims needs to be tried for crimes against humanity. It must make you feel so smug to be able to patronize others for surviving crimes you will never understand. And what the hell does that have to do with a 17 year old that took someone's life? We ALL know drunk driving is dangerous. He was drunk AND on drugs. Going skateboarding down a hill under the influence is a huge mistake. Drunk driving while also under the influence of drugs is murder.
I don't understand the problem with this story. If you can't do the time, don't commit the crime. This prisoner killed someone, remember? That he is now gone, and died in total dispair, doesn't bother me in the least.
Yes, this kid got himself drunk and someone lost his life because of it. While he certainly needs to account for his actions, if you think he's not really a criminal right now, wait until he gets out, and providing he doesn't get himself killed in prison, he will get out.
The prison system is not without accomplishment. In addition to providing confinement for court defined durations, they manufacture hardened criminals.
SNUGGLE PUSS You have no idea if this child was acting violently, posturing or just simply being belligerant. THe cops tried to protect him from his own actions by placing him in solitary while also protecting him from potential assaults by adults.
Yes this young man made a huge mistake---he wanted to grow up too quick and act like an adult while drinking. He committed a horrible crime of underage drinking resulting in Manslaughter. Shoud he have been put into an adult jail--maybe & maybe not as none of us can say withouyt all the details.
However there are some kids who do belong in Adult Prisons, not all but some. Juveniles involved willingly in drive by shooting should be placed in adult prison, as should juvenile rapists over the age of 15 for they know what they are doing and they know it is wrong but do it anyway for personal pleasures.
But should a child who got too drunk and behind the wheel of a car be handled as an adult----I would think not! Why wasn't this child placed n Lookout Mtn Facility rather than solitary I don't know and neither do any of you.
We at this point can only hope that other teens learn from this and do not get behind a wheel of a car while Drunk or high on drugs such as Meth, Coke or heroin!
Of course this killer should be treated like an adult! We as a society are of the mind that drivers can take personal responsibility for their actions - which is why they are granted a drivers license in the first place.
But the reality is that it's not about this kid. This kid's life ended the second he took somebody else's life. What this story should be about is the next kid who might now think twice before making the same mistake.
I would think that solitary confinement is better than rape.
"something the Americancriminal justice system lacks."
Wow, you mean the Tijuana jails and the jails where they chop off peoples hands and heads are better?
No criminal justice system is ever good enough for the libtards of our country. They forget that prison is supposed to be a punishment.
I wonder why they can't just be held in a juvenile detention center even though they are being charged as a adult? Still, we must remember that this young man killed another person and the victim did nothing we know of to deserve it. The victim didn't get a trial, the opportunity to make a plea bargain or countless appeals. Best way to avoid this is to not go to jail to begin with.
Another tragedy of the appropriately named "Criminal Justice System".
The tragedy is the fact that a 17 year old was a murder.
The only tragedy I see is this punk killed another person with his car, while driving drunk. Throw away the freekin key and let him rot.
Hey @1Antelope..........the correct term is "murderer"... oh and BTW there is scientific evidence that a teenager's brain is not as mature as that of an adult,. but you can go ahead with your self-righteous attitude.......... I pity anyone in your life that is ever human and makes a mistake. You seem like the type of person to just want to write them off. Hopefully you will never have to deal with this with any of your loved ones.
Beachgirl, you are so right! In addition to research on the adolescent brain that you cite, there is ample research that solitary confinement (which was, ironically developed by the Society of Friends as what they hoped would be a more humane punishment, forcing introspection and reform) is, in fact, torture. It does not reform, but rather actually makes people mentally ill. To deliberately do something to harm the mental health of any prisoner, let alone juveniles, SHOULD ITSELF be a criminal act!
Pity the child of 1antelope. That kind of self-righteous, hard-ass discipline is what may drive some kids to drink...
Thats why its wearing blinders ashamed
Beach, teenage brains are not mature enough, which is why the drinking age is 21 across the country.
This kid was guilty before he got behind the wheel of the car.
Sorry, I feel no sympathy for his death. He brought it all on himself.
Rev,
"hard-ass discipline"
I was used hard discipline on my 2 kids. It worked. My son finished his football career at the Univ of Miami a few years ago and is now a doctor who volunteers in Haiti (3 times) and is banging a Miami Heat dance team gal. My daughter just graduated the Univ of Auburn where she was on a track scholarship. She started her own marketing firm even before she graduated.
Perhaps your kids are typical. liberal punks due to lousy upbringing?
My parents were ultra-conservative fundamentalist Christians who believed in violent and emotionally-irrational behavior toward their children, which resulted in all three of us kids becoming drug addicts in high school. Worse yet, they were also masters of keeping their abuse of us under wraps, even moving several times before any other responsible adult could suspect too much.
After many years of struggling with our abusive upbringing all three of us have become fine responsible adults too, all three of us with degrees, two of us with Master's degrees. It took many years, a whole lot of hard work, lots of counseling, and lots of 12-step meetings to overcome what our parents got away with.
There is a very fine line between correct discipline and abusive conduct, and I don't appreciate the insinuation that just because someone is liberal that their kids will turn out to be "liberal punks", as I have borne witness to extremely abusive conduct out of religious conservatives too.
To Bobster: So who is your daughter banging?? You must be a proud papa!!!
bobster,
Is your son going to support the child or children that come from this irresponsible breeding? Or will the woman have to get a DNA test? This is the same football mentality that caused the rapes in Ohio recently. Your son is NOT responsible.
Really Bobster: "banging". The apple doesn't fall very far from the tree.
You taught him well. Everything you know. Does he attack "libbies" and "bleeding heart's" too, like you?
Sickening
Bobster wrote: "I was used hard discipline on my 2 kids. It worked. My son finished his football career at the Univ of Miami a few years ago and is now a doctor who volunteers in Haiti (3 times) and is banging a Miami Heat dance team gal. My daughter just graduated the Univ of Auburn where she was on a track scholarship. She started her own marketing firm even before she graduated."
Bobster, sounds like your kids were able to turn out good despite having you for a father. Depends on what your "hard discipline" was. Did you beat them? Did you abuse them? Just asking.
"I was used hard discipline". What kind of phrase is that? And what is Univ ? Is that a word? Is that a proper abbreviation? And you brag that your son is "banging" a Miami Heat dancer. That's what you think of women. They're someone to "bang". Is someone "banging" your daughter? Do you like someone referring to your daughter like that? The Heat dancer is someone's daughter too but you show no respect for her.
They must have got their intelligence from somewhere other than you.
Your son is lying to you, Bobster. No way in hell a Miami Heat dancer is going to waste her time on just anyone. Why the hell would she date YOUR son?
He was charged at less than pre-meditated Murder... so to answer some of your questions he was not being charged To the fullest extent of the law.
His age doesn't excuse murder, accidental or not. Our laws are already lenient. We were righteous shocked to hear in one Muslim country were a man was sentenced to lose his right hand and left food - under Islamic law, a convicted thief is relieved of the tools of his trade; the hand, because he used it o steal and the foot to make him less quick in the getaway. The right hand is most important - because in a desert land you may not have water to waste in washing your hands, so the left hand is used for toilet (unclean) functions and the right is used to eat food and other clean uses. By removing his right hand you can assume the man to be "unclean". he is thus, condemned by man as well as God.
They were kind, because they had the amputations done by a medical doctor /surgeon. In the old days, they would have hacked off the appendages in the middle of the town square. Even you would have to agree that there is less damage by having a doctor do the deed in a clean hospital!
In olden Christen days, an eye for an eye would have the kid hung from the nearest tree - given the alternatives, a few years in prison is much more humane.
I never drank alcohol until I was in my mid-20's - and I was in the military.
Soldiers were allowed to drink 3.5 beer since they were assumed to all be 18 yo. If you can fight and day like a man, they assumed you could have a few beers as a soldier. But, if you killed someone or disrespected a higher ranking officer - you were not excused because you were drunk or dinking - they assume, that a man needs to know his limits and charged you accordingly, drunk, sober, angry, happy or sad... the law was still the law.
well, if the teenagers are put in with the adults and they raped and or beaten, then it's shame on the criminal justice system. if they put them in solitary, where they are safe from other inmates, they're criticized for that. these teenagers committed adult crimes, they are being charged as adults, hence, they are treated as adults. many inmates, teenagers included, become violent due to drugs alcohol or just anger....they MUST be controlled so they don't hurt themselves or someone else. if they're not controlled, the bleeding hearts ask, why didn't you control him so he wouldn't hurt himself or someone else? there are consequences for our actions, and unfortunately, these teens think that they are immune and do as they please. when they have to face the consequences.....they cry that they're just children. if you can't do the time, then don't do the crime
Linda,your comments show that you are a heartless person.Hope that this never happens to anybody in your family.There is a better way to house these juveniles but the powers that be don't want to spend the money.
So for you it's only between general prison population and solitary. I don't think you realize what solitary really is.
They could just have put him in a single occupancy cell and leave the door locked.
Linda is a dangerous person and certainly heartless. For her to think that is scary enough but for her to write it is unbelievable. I hope she doesn't have any children anywhere near her for she certainly doesn't understand much about human beings. Children should not be placed in solitary confinement no matter what they did. If they need to be in a mental hospital that is one thing, but in a prison...What kind of society are we?
Linda, solitary confinement is used for punishment for wrong doing while in jail or prison and NOT for housing someone awaiting trial or sentencing. If I were in the kids family I would be suing the responsible parties and WIN!. Ever hear of a juvenile detention center?. duh.
Oh yeah, I hate people like Linda.
If I was being put in a prison, I'd literally BEG to be put in solitary. I've seen and read way to much what it's like to have to share a cell and space with the other convicts: rapes and beatings and abuse. I'll take being alone over that any day, and I'd wager 90% of men would as well.
Which is perfect demonstration that you have no idea what you are talking about in general and specifically that you have zero idea of what solitary confinement is like.
You have no idea what solitary confinement is. Imagine you are in an elevator, then suddenly the power is out and you got stuck. How would you feel? Now, imagine you got stuck in there and live in that confined space for days, weeks, months and you have no idea how long time has passed and you don't know when or if ever you will be rescue and let out. If you can feel that, then you probably can feel one one hundredth of how a person feels in solitary confinement. Anybody that experienced solitary confinement knows it is way better to die then to suffer an endless suffering. God bless you.
Rupert, I was arrested for a minor charge once and the cells at the local police station were all solitary confinement. I spent one day in it waiting for my bail hearing and I felt as if I were going to go mad....and that's just one day, and I'm a hardened middle aged adult. Put a child in that for a month or so and I would be shocked if he didn't go outright insane and totally useless to himself that he can't even assist in his own trial defense. And unless he's given a life sentence, what do you think his behavior will be like when he's released into the neighborhood....your neighborhood?
Linda is absolutely right. Anyone who disagrees is responsible for the watering down of taking responsibility for your actions in this country, and is a sad, yielding, p*ssy who would be happy to let prisoners be treated like visiting relatives.
Regarding solitary confinement, the Beatles provided the basic rule:
Unless you are gay, being in solitary confinement definitely is the way to go, really . . .
Really! :-o
Baldenario,
"being in solitary confinement definitely is the way to go"
For an introvert, solitary confinement would be paradise. It's only extroverts who find it hell.
linda, i agree with all you say, i just dont know how anyone can twist a sheet around their throat until they die.
solitary confinement is a form of torture for most mammals. mammals are pack / societal animals and need each other for a range of reasons. in the canine species loss of their pack is traumatic and life threatening. this young man may have deserved to receive punishment but not torturous punishment. the result of isolation may achieve a perceived change in the confined individual but ultimately it may only serve to exacerbate a mentally disturbed person to psychotic behavior and then we will turn him / her back out on society. lose / lose for all involved---
So-called "solitary" confinement is not really solitary-the inmates can talk to each other from cell-to cell,they send notes to each other using "fishing lines' made from threads pulled from blankets or sheets,they also send smuggled tobacco and weed to each other this way.
They get out for an hour of exercise every day-they get books to read-the C.O.'s check on them every half hour or so-it's nothing like the old prisons where the "hole"- (solitary)-meant total isolation.
Starvin Larry,
"So-called "solitary" confinement is not really solitary-the inmates can talk to each other from cell-to cell,they send notes to each other using "fishing lines' made from threads pulled from blankets or sheets,they also send smuggled tobacco and weed to each other this way."
That sounds like it's based on personal experience. I don't mean to put you down, but have you been there?
If Mickey has been there, he IS qualified to talk on the subject. This same information has been on some reality TV programs as well-
Snugglepuss,
"This same information has been on some reality TV programs as well"
Then that explains why I didn't know it. I don't watch reality TV, and I have never been there.
warren, adult inmates are treated like that every day, if the child doesn't want to be treated like an adult, then he shouldn't do adult crimes.....
There's a certain sad truth to that... I assumed "charged as an adult" meant they would be treated as an adult within the system. There are large, strong, violent people who pretty much live in jail. And somebody who's small and weak is going to have a bad time locked up with them -- no matter if they're 17 or 35.
Jail SUCKS. Don't do things that put you in it.
That's not the fault of the guy who is small and weak. It -is- the fault of the person who puts the small person in with the bully.
That is irrelevant to this current discussion.
read your first statement: adults are treated like this every day...he was a 17 yr old..still very inexperienced with responsibile choies....who hasnt drank as a teen?
No Linda: adult prisoners do not spend everyday in solitary confinement. SC is only used in adult prisons in cases were a prisoner did something really bad in the jail. And even then, it's only for a few days.
Linda can only guess what job you do , people are so disgusting
Byron, it's the fault of the small and weak guy who screwed up and got his sorry ass stuck in prison.
NO one elses fault but his.
it seems other states need to have juvinile detention centers like texas has gatesville for boys, gainsville for girls. they have a bedroom with a window that cannot be broken out of. they are marched to school, and church protestant and catcholic. they are not allowed to hit the kids. they are all marched into a dinning room to eat and they get to watch tv 2 hours a night if they are good if not they stay in their room.they have solitary confinment rooms but they do have a sky light in the ceiling if someone gets really bad they are locked up there for a while till they behave.
Texastornado55, how many catcholics do you have in Texas? But I would agree that these kids need to be looked after and not abandoned or abused.
linda....my god! how can you be so heartless?
There doesn't seem to be any simple solution. If you put a teen into general population, they will get raped repeatedly and beaten repeatedly. Until the prison population is somehow controlled, teens won't be safe. This kid wasn't a murderer, he was a drunk driver. I know someone was killed, but it wasn't like he was a hardened criminal who aimed his car at another car deliberately. Maybe they could define levels of crimes in such a way that the kids could be in a popultion of adults that weren't hardened criminals. You know, a separate area for drunk drivers, and other non violent crimes. Or something. This is such a difficult problem, but there must be a solution, if we just appky our minds to it.
You bring up a good point about "controlling" the genpop. As much as certain people like to fantasize about their favorite criminal du jour getting beaten, raped, and killed in the name of "justice"... there really needs to be more control over what goes on in there. If there's enough freedom and privacy that you can conduct gang business, get high, rape, etc - then something has to be seriously wrong.
The system is designed to make profit for the private sector, and remain cost effective for the public. Short version, it's a barbaric system from the dark ages.
Lady C has my vote.They should of had a suicide watch on him.
It's a barbaric system because the people in it are fuking animals.
There is a classification system that is common in all corrections. It is called the level system. In most places it is 1-5, in some 1-6. (Where a 23 hour lockdown is levels 5-6, and Death Row is the level 6... generally prisoners who have nothing to lose by killing someone inside the Prison.) Levels 3,4,5 are where you need to contain offenders who have a demonstrated capacity and willingness to use violence.
This offender was not violent, even though he had caused a death. We look to intent and prior criminal behavior. He should have been in at most a medium security to minimum security facility, where the other offenders would have a lot to lose by touching him, and he would have everything to lose by breaking any of the rules of the institution.
The use of the level system in incarceration provides incentives to behavior we want, and appropriate protection for staff and other inmates.
Most States have overcrowding issues now to the point that they can not manage their populations correctly, and you end up with intentional mis-classification in order to house offenders without having to construct facilities/pay more for it.
Nearly all offenders eventually end up back in your communities. That will always be a fact of life. Deciding how to best manage them so that you will not be returning people to the streets far worse than they went in is a good investment in your safety.
(I worked in military corrections, and have had the pleasure of experiencing extreme conditions in SERE training, which is not fun. Solitary Confinement or SHU is no place for someone who hasn't earned it through misconduct within the institution.)
Teens should be housed in separate facilities even though they are being tried as adults.When they do their time and are released they may end up committing more crimes if they are psychotic before or after being incarcerated.If they committed a crime they need to be punished in a humane way so that they might turn their lives around once they are back out in society.
Anyone surprised at what the government will do to you for your own good needs to open their eyes. They're getting worse about it by the day.
First, why was this young man consuming alcohol and drugs? Addictions are only a symptom of what drove someone to use...especially, as a young man.
Second, jail or prison is not always the best way to punish people. For instance, child molesters...we all know they can not be reformed. Jail or prison does nothing to discourage the offender and when they are released the vile act will eventually be repeated. Immediate death is the only means to keep society safe from them. James Stewart was already living in a kind of mental hell and his actions only pushed the mental hell deeper.
Finally, R.I.P. James Stewart...two wrongs never makes anything right. His actions the night he took a life was wrong...putting him in an adult prison was wrong...as a positive person, I can not see where anyone made the right choice.
Ahhh, the sign of a mindless lib: instead of having sympathy for the victim, you instead beg us all to ask "why" and analyze the life of the criminal.
You're pathetic.
There are two victims here, the person accidentally killed by the kid's irresponsible behavior and the kid himself killed by irresponsibility of adults of the system that put him in such an inhumane situation.
Your position is not only that of a sociopath, incapable of empathy, but useless and dangerous as well. The kid's crime was accidental, yours is intentionally not given a crap about the fate of other people.
@Ruppert Jenkins - ah, the sign of a mindless simpleton: Can't have two thoughts at the same time. People with a more developed intellect are capable of being sympathetic to the victims while at the same time trying to identify ways of reducing occurrences in which people become victims in the first place. This may be difficult for you to grasp, but leaving people who have sociopathic tendencies and/or substance abuse issues or are otherwise unusually likely to intentionally or unintentionally harm others to their own devices until they kill someone, then locking them up or killing them doesn't really help the victims. Thus, your claimed sympathy for the victims rings hollow.
@LogicRules-01, I couldn't agree more with your statement! Good for you for responding to simpletons and morons like Ruppert, Jake2247 and other hollow-beings. I feel bad for them and their ignorant, crass ways of carrying themselves. .
A man in the article compares solitary in jail to POWs in Korea? There is absolutely no comparison between the two. That's a slap in the face of POW's and he should be ashamed of himself.
Don't ever get locked up in a small town, back-wood, hick-ville Mississippi town, even if your white with a dark tan.
It's easy....just don't do the crime.
Lil' Focker, do you mean to tell me that you've never gone over the speed limit or committed any mistake or even (GASP!) a small illegal error?? I'd love to hear how you got twinkled already! do tell!
Actually, no comparison is being made.
What is being demonstrated is that prolonged solitary confinment causes psychological issues. They are mentioning that a study of individuals who were confined had a high incidence of psychological damage from it.
There are plenty of other studies in the literature that confirm earlier studies.
Severe isolation can destroy a person.
When we draft a penal code, we provide punishments for offenses. None of those punishments, per the 8th Amendment, may be cruel or unusual. We can no longer publicly flog people. We do not place them in stocks.
The Supreme Court, hardly a liberal bunch, would take issue with violations of the 8th Amendment, if ever a plaintiff/defendant had adequate resources to pursue relief. Nearly none do.
Solitary Confinement is a management tool for offenders who offend within the prison system. It is not a place to house someone because you do not want to house him with worse offenders. He should have been confined with persons in a lower classification facility. Minor rule infractions should not result in an offender being sent to SHU.
"The Supreme Court, hardly a liberal bunch, would take issue with violations of the 8th Amendment, if ever a plaintiff/defendant had adequate resources to pursue relief. Nearly none do"
It does NOT require ANY resources to file an appeal with SCOTUS-you can file a pro-se or propria persona petition-meaning you are representing yourself-then ask for an attorney if and when your petition is accepted.
No....I've never done anything to put myself in a position that i have to spend times in jail.
Very sad. I don't understand why they couldn't keep in a county lock-up or shift some convicts around to put him in cell. They make special allowances for murders and people on death row.
How can they do this to a "child?" Yes I agree he killed someone but teenagers do stupid stuff, alcohol and marijuana was found in his system, but the real question is where did he get it??? When did it start??? The answer is very easy, it started in school, yes in school...as a mother of two I cannot imagine my son going through something like that...Schools (especially high schools) are filled with drugs and does anyone do anything about it??? Nobody cares, it's business, THEY DON'T CARE...and if the system is so concerned with kids drinking and driving why do they allow for "kids" to drive??? They take away soda machines out of schools, they tell our kids to eat healthy...why don't they concentrate on getting all drugs out of schools first?? I personally believe that kids ages 12 to 18 are going through a lot...the growing up, the fitting in, the grades, the opposite sex...it is a very crucial age and parents need help, times are changed and we need all the help we can get...not all parents are lucky to be home with their kids at all times and a little help would mean a lot and I'm not talking about after school care or playing sports, all I'm saying is get these damn drugs out of our schools...drug test these kids, all they need is a little change of habit and things can get a little better for all of us...to the victim's family..my heart goes out to them!!!
Are you kidding me?? It's the schools? NO. It's the 17 year old who decided to take drugs. It's the 17 year old who decided to drink. It's the 17 year old who while on drugs and drunk drove and KILLED someone. He was a MURDERED. This is what's wrong with society. Everyone refuses to take personal responsibility. You ask why are kids allowed to drive. Well because the responsible ones know not to drink in drive. Because the parents decide when and if the child drives. And you talk about where the kids are getting drugs in school from well duh OTHER KIDS. Perhaps this little "prince" was the supplier. Parents do YOUR job and stop blaming schools for your bad a*s kids!!! I'M SICK OF PARENTS LIKE YOU.
omg antelope- are you for real? and i bet you NEVER drank a few beers or toked a joint? Unless you are over 70 i think it's safe to say 90% of teens do this at least once. I myself, in the 70's did a few times...he was a kid...legally still a minor...you are a hardened person...he was not a murderer- Adam Lanza- now that is murder...smh- i feel so sorry for his family and the boy himself...wrong, wrong, and sad
@1antelope: Putting aside the discussion for a moment...what is the deal with your chronic inability to spell "murderer"???
Are you for real? Since some kids do drugs (alcohol is a drug) and then drive all kids should be banned from driving? Why don't we apply that logic to adults as well- some adults do drugs and then drive when they shouldn't so why don't we just ban everyone from driving?! I mean, that would take care of the whole driving under the influence problem if we got rid of all the drivers.
On another note- NO, not all kids do drugs and not all adults do them either. I NEVER had a drop of alcohol while in high school (and I had plenty of chances, I just stood my ground and said NO). I've also never done pot or anything like it in my entire life. The problem is people are afraid to tell kids "no" these days. They don't understand the concept of it. I have a young family member who has been to rehab and arrested for stealing and has on-going drug and alcohol problems. This person was never made to be responsible for his/her actions and still isn't. Nothing is going to change until the people surrounding him/her start to hold him/her accountable for his/her own actions.
If someone can be a productive member of society and wants to sit at home and get drunk and/or high, all while not harming anyone, then I really wouldn't have a problem with that. It would honestly be none of my business. It is, however, my business when that drunk and/or high person decides to get behind the wheel of the car. We all know it's wrong and what can happen. I knew it well before the age of 17. If the kid hadn't been stupid and selfish and hadn't gotten behind the wheel of a car this would be a non-issue.
Man, I only wish I was as perfect as some of the posters on this board think THEY are...
why wasnt this kid put in a drug rehab instead of jail.
1 antelope.... i dont even have words for people like yourself... more than likely you work a dead end job, if not on some form of welfare, and you have no family, or they turned their backs on you, and you a just plain miserable.... do us all a favor and hit the power button on your computer, take your meds and get some rest
I'm an ex-con who at the age of 16 was placed in solitary confinement for talking after 10:00. I did 30 days in that cell, getting two slices for each meal. On the third day I was given one half a meal and then continued with the 2 slices of bread. In the cell I was in, I slept on two boards that were placed with a space of 3 inches between them. And the boards were 6 inches wide.
A year later, again after being accused of talking after 10: pm I was placed in solitary confinement, but this time in what was called the "DARK HOLE" This solitary is where there are no lights or windows. The same situation, 2 slices of bread for each meal and half a meal each third day. Let me add one more thing.... I was naked during all of this. No mattress, but was given a blanket each night around 11: pm. That is, if the guard remembered to give me one.
Now I said all this to say, I didn't go mad, I never even thought of hanging myself or hurting myself. I know, prison is a whole lot different today then it was when I was in there. Today, I'm 74, so that was years ago. Times are different today.
Someone here said maybe they should put the kids in with the drunks...Hey, many of the drunks are ex-cons, and some would love to see a kid in there with them. Rape is an honest reality, especially today in the prisons. Not a joke.
People would be surprised if they really knew how many people kill themselves in prison today. Usually you only read about one when the family complains and wants an investigation. Then it hits the news. In state prisons it's even a much bigger secret. No state prison wants to be investigated.
It is sad to read about a young kid killing himself.
This is the reality of many IF NOT ALL State-level Penns
and even a few county jails! If you're a young male, small
or slightly built...THEN YOU WILL BE RAPED DAILY until your
ASS GUSHES BLOOD from its bright red rawness.
If you are in prison, the food will consistently SUCK
and coffee, real milk, real meat and anything thing OTHER
than Bologna, White Bread, Soy Milk, bran Muffins, A banana
or two, and Water will be a long-gone memory till the day you
get out or the day you die in the Penn! You get Scurvy and
Rickets in state penns these days cuz of the lack of
Vitamin C and D.
In the last ten years, jails have been made into living
HELLS for ALL inmates. Rehabilitation, any recreation
or social facilities, even books are a long gone memory
because elected politicians GOT TOUGH ON CRIME and
DEMANDED that ANYTHING that looks "SOFT" be TAKEN
AWAY from prisoners.
It's now ALL PUNISHMENT..NO REHAB of any sort!
Medical assistance? Doctors? Dentists? Long Gone!
You get a NURSE THAT'S ALL! If you have an Abscess
in your tooth?...You LIVE WITH UNTIL YOU CAN"T
TAKE THE PAIN ANYMORE and you then resort to
smashing your jaw against the corner of a lunchroom
table to knock those bad teeth out. YOU GET NO HELP
IN THE PENN ANYMORE! And even AFTER you smash
your jaw on the table to get that Abscessed tooth out,
the broken root gets left in to rot and all you get is
two Tylenol and that's it! It festers for YEARS until
you get out to goto a charity dental clinic or emergency
ward to get it looked at. NO DENTISTS in the POKIE!
Diabetes? Tough! No Doctors, No Prescriptions.
Most Type 1's and Type 2's die within 6 months
to a year because of no treatment and the constant
running out of or the stolen-by-guards-or-inmates insulin jabs.
Today's prison means they leave you like the animals.
And that is what the inmates become IF or when they get out!
Recreation, Light, Some Time Out in the Yard?
That's long gone now too! 20 to 23 hours lockdown
IS THE NORM in many State Penns. Only Flouros for lights
and four cement walls looking at OTHER cement walls
It's ALWAYS Grey, Dark and Gloomy and in the summer
there IS NO AIR CONDITIONING and because of the
floor layouts temperature EASILY get to 120 F (48 Celcius)
in the average cell which is torture in itself.
You can't even get any sleep cuz the guards and admin
LIKE to torture prisoners by making em do night counts
where ALL prisoners are FORCIBLY aroused from their
already troubled sleep at 11 am, 1 am, 3am, 5am and 7am
to be counted by the guards and in many cases body searched
by having a finger or three stuck up your nether regions.
It takes the average prisoner only a week to turn
into raging nervous wrecks after a CONSTANT 7-DAYS A WEEK
being roused from sleep every two hours for night count.
New guards have to deal with this crap too, and themselves
turn onto roid-ragers and emotional evil wrecks which they
then take out the prisoners by TORTURING THEM day-in-day-out.
Doesn't matter if you;re a lifer or in for 2 years,
you can look forward to a U.S. prison system
THAT LOOKS NOTHING LIKE what is portrayed
on TV or in the Movies! It's now turned in
16th century Crusader torture sessions
done for PUNISHMENT and for AMUSEMENT!
The media and politicians ARE LYING to YOU!
Prison is now an outsourced PRIVATE run enterprise
where your misery is turned into shareholder profits
and the prisoners and guards are the patsies left
holding the bag.
The public KNOWS nothing what really goes on
nowadays...its NOT like what it was n the 1970's,
80's or 90's ...prison has gone back to 1666!
Okie errant young person --- GET OFF MY COMPUTER!
One more reason to lock your computer by pressing Ctrl-Alt-Del
and LOCK...Upper comment is mostly UTTER B.S. made by stupid
young person with brain of Lumbricus-Terrestris (Worm!)
How does one delete a post?
This accident could of happened sober and may have even if he wasn't under the influence...I've watched horrible things happen to people once behind those closed doors, called jail, it's not at all what it is supposed to be in a lot of communities..however in some it is. Depends on who is in charge and how much they do NOT supervise the employees who are usually hired without training or even a high school diploma- they are not cops! Workers usually get a little over minimum wage. Did you know incarceration is suppose to be rehabilitating these people, for societies sake. I watched a boy who was 16 and arrested for B&E on a second hand store and stole a few pocket knives..a good looking kid...he was taken out of his cell at night by a female jailer to be her assistant(?) well the felons took advantage of this and promised the 16 yo pie in the sky; a good life for a change for this underprivileged youth. So he got the keys for em....he did 10 hard years in a correctional institute and never got a GED! The only reason the felons didn't kill him is bcuz he ended up taking them to "his" friends house bcuz the felons didn't have a place to go....thank God they found them before he was killed . I am talking terrible deeds - these prisoners were charged and heading to the big house probably for the rest of their lives! Government needs tweaking...
Many young, good looking convicts are able to charm the scales off of a snake, (or the *ants off of a female guard). He was 16 and, I'll guarantee, he knew exactly what he was doing. This little daffodil is NOT the victim. He is a perpetrator, period. By the way, if he failed to get his GED (usually required if not already obtained) it was because he went to great lengths to avoid going to class or being assigned to an educational program. He was probably to busy trying to manipulate staff. Sorry, no sympathy for this "kid."
I like how most of you are so fast to criticize the crminal justice system. Its there for a reason whether any of us like it or not, the only way to stray from it is to not break the law. Sometimes breaking the law leads to harsh punishment. Do i agree with the fact he should have been kept in solitary, no, but dont break the law and you won't be in that situation anyway. my condolences still to the family, and to the family of the man he killed.
You're naive. Prisons have become for profit meat factories. The US has the highest incarceration rate of any country on the planet by far. The public just don't want to know and doesn't give a @!$%# and that's the reality.
True words Culhealth! the prison system in the U.S. is disgusting, UNJUST and most of the lay public does NOT want to even look at it. it's pretty brutal unless of course you're the son/ daughter of a senator/businessman/etc/etc/ETC!
We have the highest incarceration rate because everyone else in the world executes their psychos instead of paying for them through the ass with tax money that you need to feed your family! Not saying that this kid was a psycho, but there are a trillion others who need NOT be on this planet ie. rapists, child molesters (definitely need to be vapourized), murderers, serial killers...... there is just no justification for killing someone no matter how you try to spin it and there are plenty of spindoctors on this thread. I agree with an earlier post, it all starts at home with their upbringing; had I been the spouse, parent, child of the victim I'm thinking I would have ZERO sympathy for the "child" who just murdered my family member. Everyone is all to quick to dismiss the action as "unintended" but if it happened to you, you would be walking a different walk & talking a different talk guaranteed.
These young men, actually children, should not have been placed in solitary confinement...the theme of the story was about the monstrous prison system's treatment of juveniles in the USofA; how it needs to be revamped, and the psychosis that follows from such treatment. My sympathy to all the victims and their families in this story.
are you so sure about that...look at the statistics as to how many "innocent" people are possibly behind bars. If any of you think our justice system is working WOW look again people. I will say it again....Our kids see the Lindsey Lohans out there and think they won't get much more than a slap on the wrist for stealing, drunk driving, hit and runs, violating probation and on and on a Total of 6 time to be exact. Our courts have to learn what is fair for one is fair for the rich and famous!
Ryan, I doubt you read the news. Just yesterday a man was cut loose in NYC. He served 22 years for a crime he didn't commit. It happens a lot more they you could imagine. All people in prison are guilty. That's an absolute FACT.
Wait, I'm still confused RogerPaul. are you trying to say that every person in prison IS guilty? even after saying a man served for a crime he did NOT commit? haven't you heard the story of Ruben Hurricane Carter?
A typo on my part. I should have said that every person in prison is guilty
The 'victim' is the man he killed.
exactly!
Why can't they just stay in a juvenile facility until they are 18.
He was 17.. Would one year make a huge difference??
Actually people can be left in solitary for years. My friend was left in there for 15 years. An adult in prision for possession of stolen property...not robbery not an violent crime! He was in that small cell for 23 hrs a day and let out for rec. 1 hour a day... and some days not at all. The prison system is so corrupt, it happens when the police..police themselves. It's ashame!
Putting prisoners into solitary confinement rarely has anything to do with corruption. it may be bad practice, but it is not corrupt.
Vikie05, do you even realize the severity of the crime you would have to commit to even serve 15 years in prison? Most murder convictions don't even last that long with good behavior stipulations. While I am sad this young man took his life, his parents probably were not able or willing to hold him accountable for his actions. As a parent of 4, all of my children learned at an early age what responsibility was about and that there were consequences for certain behaviors. Are they perfect? No, but not one of them has ever seen the inside of a jail cell. I was taught the same things by my parents. You cannot blame the system for your own life choices.
BigD: Are you actually asking people to parent their children? That's too much work. It's so much easier to close your eyes and let them do what they want. Don't give them responsibility around the house because they don't want chores. Give them a cell phone and assume you now know what they are doing because you can reach them. Throw money at the problem(child) and hope that keeps it happy. Sit watching your TV or playing your games and pat yourself on the back for being such a good parent because you are at home with them. Never hold your child accountable for their behavior....after all it has to be someone else's fault. Besides, do you know how much work it takes to discipline a child when they do something wrong? If I take away their TV or video games then they argue and complain AND THEY MAY NOT BE MY FRIEND ANYMORE.
My child did not end up in jail or on drugs. My child never had a cell phone. I required a land line number that I could call and reach the other parents. I spent time talking to my child as a parent, not as their friend. Oh, and my child knew not to call looking for bail after making bad choices. Along with the drug and alcohol conversations was the do the crime, do the time conversation. But then again, it was a job I chose because I wanted it, not because I thought it would be easy.
I'm guessing BigD that you are a boomer. I've read we boomers are the last of the parents and all generations since just want to be friends. I see this frequently with the children I work with.
2 years shy of baby boomer. But I was raised by a set of parents that loved and supported each other and knew what would happen if I crossed the line. There was no abuse at my house, My dad used corporal punishment 3 times in my life and I deserved each time! I tried to raise my kids with the same set of rules that I had. My kids had cell phones, but if they violated my rules they lost the privilege. My son's first car ( that he paid for half of) sat in my driveway for 12 months before he raised his grades to the level that allowed him the privilege to obtain a drivers license. My children all know that I would do anything for them, except bail them out of jail for a choice they made. My youngest turns 19 in less than 3 weeks and she is attending a 4 year college for the most part on her dime and the scholarships she earned. Her mother left me with 3 children when she was 2 years old and I did the best I could to teach them right from wrong. I remarried and my wife and I provided the two most important things a child needs. Love and discipline.
Amen
I agree!!! Amen is right!
why the lies vikie? nobody is kept in solitary con. for 15 years!! NOBODY !!
either you or your 'friend' are overflowing with bs
I work at a prison where we get youthful offenders all the time. Not all cells are for punitive punishment. If they would have put him in general population with adult offenders and they hurt him people would have had an issue with that. Single cell is the best place for a youthful offender. Sad that he killed himself but in the same instance some things you can not stop. If someone has their hearts set on committing suicide they will find a way regardless of where they are housed.
Single cell concept is fine for the protection of juveniles in adult prisons. Enforcing solitary confinement concept is not. It is a complete contradiction of what the idiot administrators in the prisons are trying to sell us as to why a juvenile is placed in a single cell. It's the double talk concept from some azzhole warden that we are supposed to believe. "NOT"!!
Well, you could agree with their tactics if you like being that you are part of that system and you won't or can not voice your true feelings. You just can't try to sell the concept to me as I did not drink the koolaid. But, just think if it were your child. Would you still side with your boss? In a society were people sleep with their dogs and cats, and even kiss them in the mouth after they lick their own azzez, this is highly un-acceptable for a human being, especially in the twenty first century, "AMERICA"???
By the way, why isn't the warden being charged with negligent homicide as the buck stops with him in his facility? I am really interested in knowing what the autopsy read as the cause of death. They'll get rid of that solitary confinement fashizzle real quick when they start getting arrested for negligent homicide.
And because you are not "part of the system" as you say you are speaking out of ignorance. You have no idea what you speak of so unless you wanna commit a crime and go to prison and experience solitary confinement for yourself OR become a correctional officer pipe down sparky.
Amanda Grass Pomeroy - you may have missed the interview with the psychiatrist who spoke about the psychosis that sets in; particularly, in younger people and solitary confinement only exacerbated the psychosis.
Like I said, it's sad. For anyone who commits suicide. It is a selfish act that causes pain to everyone else involved. It is in no way the Warden's fault or the prison officials. The kid made his own choice just like making the choice to drink and drive. This is what's wrong with society these days. NO ONE WANTS KIDS TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR ACTIONS!!!!!! No wonder there are more youthful offenders now adays. My opinion, from some one who knows what happens on the inside. The Real Story of this issue. Not some over dramatized media influenced story you all can hype up.
Youth under the age of 18 (21) are not considered to have the wisdom to make choices about if or who they may wish to have sex with; whether they want to take a drink; they are not allowed to vote; they may not sign contracts-- if they are too childish for all of that, why is it that we prosecute ANY kids as adults?? either they are or they are not-- we need to get that straight. If we are going to treat them as adults if the commit a crime, treat them as adults always. Otherwise, we must recognize that they do not have the mental capacity and give them some leeway-- even for committing crimes- that recognize that they are still kids.
Even if he had been convicted as a juvenile he wouldn't have been out at 18 due to the death; more like 24 or 25. He owuld have been moved to an adult facility as soon as he turned 18.
And what is truly wrong about this sort of thing is that IT IS NOT WORKING! People still commit crimes. Like public hangings and beheading s it is simply a barbaric over reaction by our nation's Puritan roots. Since it is not working to deter crime we, as a civilized and educate nation, are reminded to search for a method that will.
People still commit the crimes because of all the bleeding hearts out there that think prison should be a resort. They should have hard labor and serve their entire sentence. Maybe then people would think twice before breaking the law.
We could put the parent in jail as the child's cell mate when kids commit crimes. That may make it more worthwhile for the parents to teach their kids to be responsible and have respect for authority.
wittyone, that makes absolute sense.
I have 7 kids, raising them all the same as much as possible but each kid has a nature and sometimes spanking can work for one kid and the other it may just break his spirit so much you lose touch with them. There is no solid answer that works for every kid.
My son blew up a park toilet while the rest of the family was sitting in church. I love him dearly and he was my first born but how would it be fair for me to sit with him in jail when I am striving to be a caring responsible person. It was enough that I had to pay fines and drive him to and fro for court stuff not to mention the hours worrying and crying because one of my dear children is struggling with choices and could end him up right where that kids was.
I was not a drinker, partier...heck I dont even own a T.V. or listen to the radio. But each person is born with a soul and a nature, as perants we have to do the best we can but they are not robots.
That boy may not have been Innocent but he was still a person with a soul and so were the people he killed when thinking like a child and doing something so stupid...just like many adults everywhere. I feel that non of us are above making a terrible mistake/stupid choice like he did. As soon as you start thinking you are you will be one step closer to sitting in his spot.
Nothing is black and white when it comes to people and the world. Try to feel compassion not just anger, disgust and hate. Wouldn't that be a better example for our kids.
And where was his father mommydeary?? Usually raising a child well requires 2 parents..
Sorry the kid died. And sorry there are so many kids in the same predicament. But - these "Kids" are making big mistakes. In this Kid's case he killed someone with a vehicle. Drunk and Drugs? Sorry, not going to shed too many tears for him. Feel sorry for the kid's family even though this is in part their fault.
Reminder, it's about who you are, who you know and how much money you have that adjusts the thinking of the law. Human rights belong to all, even the guy that does wrong, what America is suppose to be about. HUMAN RIGHTS!!!!!
What rights does he not have? He has the right to a trial,he has a right to defend himself. He just decides to commit suicide. There is one thing that the liberal lacks: a sense of RESPONSIBILITY. He commited a CRIME, for crying out loud. It is his choice. So stop those BS that you are spreading, ok?
Boromir,
Your posts reek of absolving those that commit crimes because of what limits or standards you see fit. Are you a judge paid by our system? If so, I would line up to see you dis-barred and removed from your duties. If someone does wrong, they get the punishment handed down to them by law, since that is what TAXPAYERS THAT VOTE AS CITIZENS decided, once the guilty verdict was established, NOT THE SUSPECT, OR THE DEFENDANT, OR THE CONVICTED decided, since they gave up such rights when they (no one else did it for them) broke the law by killing another. I hope you never have to deal with a family member being killed by such circumstances, but then, you would probably be shaking the guy's hand that did it, so what is the point of me even thinking you could care about anything else other than your obsessive belief that you are right about the rights of criminals?
These tragedies are the direct result of charging adolescents (and even children as young as 12) as "adults" when they are clearly still juveniles. This practice of certifying under-aged persons as "adults" must be stopped. Teenagers and children do not have adult judgment and do not deserve adult punishments. Young offenders may need to be removed from society for a period, but this must be done in humane conditions and separate from the adult prison system.
I think there are circumstances where teens should be tried as adults. This was NOT one of them.
pj, there are NO circumstances where a teen should be tried as an adult. One cannot become an adult retroactively. If the teen "criminal" were in fact an adult, they would have had adult remedies available to them and therefore possibly not even wind up in the situation where their crime was committed.
If a teenager plans and executes a crime or goes on a crime spree, yes they should be held accountable as an adult. Teenagers are not children. When they plan to and carry out a crime then they are showing the markings of adult decision making and should be held accountable. It is a grey area, I will give you that, but in some cases adult sentences are the correct punishment.
They are not adults either. "Teenagers are four times as likely to be involved in a car crash and three times more likely to die in one than adults according to the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety. Recent studies have shown that these statistics may have to do with teenage brain development.
A National Institutes of Health study proposes that the part of the brain that restrains risky behavior, including reckless driving, and thinking skills is not fully developed until the age of 25. " as quoted from an article by Kristen Rollins many studies show the mind does not fully develop until age 22-25
pj,
OK. I found it. You meant 25.3; not 26.3.
Yup. Even us brilliant bloggers fux up occasionally. :P
I appreciate the thoughtful comments. The reason why we don't allow teenagers (much less children) to become airline pilots or run for president is because it's obvious that they don't have adult judgement. We only turn adolescents into "adults" when we want to punish them as harshly as possible. This is simply wrong. And let's remember that 12-year-old children have been sentenced in this country to life in an adult prison. This is shameful.
So why the magic age of 18 if developement can last until 25? Teenagers are not children, but they are not proper adults. Since our justice system does not make a distinction for pre-adults, does that automatically make them children? I have already stated that in this case he should have NOT been charged as an adult. I think that to be tried as an adult, the teen should have planned and executed their crime.
I Agree! The Law Sucks!
pj-965429
If the mind does not develop until the ages of 22-25 what about the 18-25 year old that commits the same offense? Why should they be tried as adults since their mind is not yet done developing? It is not about the age of 17 it is about the offense that has been committed. Seventeen year olds know the dangers of drinking and driving and bad choices are not reserved just for teenagers. Everytime someone is held accountable for their actions someone else is in the background screaming it is inhumane and unjust. I do not think that he should have been placed in solitary confinement but I DO think that he should be treated as an adult since he made the decision to get behind the wheel of the car and drive. Unfortunately, 2 people have lost their lives in this situation and the lives of many have been changed forever. My condolances go out to all involved:(
please spare me the crap on a minor!many kids today are born and raised in homes where god is a joke,no golden rule-respect.no true self respecting christian could take his or her own life!!a eye for a eye!maybe lock parents up with them!