NBC News' Richard Engel talks to Gianluigi Nuzzi, one of Italy's top investigative journalists, about the resignation of Pope Benedict XVI. Nuzzi's interviews with Benedict's whistleblower butler led to the Vatileaks scandal. Nuzzi and others allege that within the Vatican there were financial cover-ups and a twisted web of money, power and sex.
Tracy Connor, Staff Writer, NBC News
As the Vatican waits for a new pope under a cloud of scandal, the journalist at the center of the Vatileaks case is revealing the high-stakes, cloak-and-dagger operation he undertook to protect the butler who went public with the secrets.
Investigative journalist Gianluigi Nuzzi told NBC News' Richard Engel how he met Paolo Gabriele in public squares and used old-fashioned public phones to set up rendezvous to make it harder for anyone to eavesdrop on their blockbuster conversations.
He gave Gabriele a code name -- Maria -- and would leave it on the door buzzer he was to press for meetings in a Rome apartment, Nuzzi said in a "Rock Center with Brian Williams" interview.
"He was excited, he was careful, he was afraid," Nuzzi said.
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The pope delivers his final audience in St. Peter's Square as he prepares to stand down.
"Then I understood why: because the Vatican has a very strong security system...Once Paolo Gabriele told me a confidence, which I do not know if it is true. He told me the cameras inside the Vatican as so powerful that they can even read the lips of people."
Their first sit-down, set up by intermediaries before Nuzzi even knew who he was meeting, was a "dangerous encounter," he said.
A dozen or so more followed, during which Gabriele gave Nuzzi photocopies of the pope's personal papers, including letters from a top aide, Monsignor Carlo Maria Viganò, who had investigated the alleged corruption. In one of the letters, Viganò complained that he felt he was being slandered and sidelined from the inside. He was eventually transferred off the case, and moved to Washington, D.C., to become Papal Nuncio, the Vatican’s diplomatic envoy.
Nuzzi used the documents for broadcast reports and a book that shed light on the infighting and dysfunction at the highest level of the church bureaucracy last year.
Gabriele, who said he was trying to help the pope and the church by shining a light on the dark underbelly of the Vatican, was eventually unmasked as the source of the leaks and sentenced to 18 months in Vatican custody. He was later pardoned by the pope and given a job in a hospital.
Pope Benedict XVI commissioned three retired and independent cardinals to investigate the leaks and they presented him with a report late last year, weeks before the pontiff shocked the world by announcing his abdication.
The Vatican has since denied reports that the cardinals' dossier contains details of a gay cabal in the Vatican and blackmail threats. Allegations of a gay Vatican subculture predate the Vatileaks scandal. In 2010, journalist Carlo Abbate went undercover and filmed Rome priests cavorting with other men.
Abbate doesn't buy the Vatican denials.
"In my opinion, Pope Benedict XVI's move represents his last attempt to save the Catholic Church from the public exposure of the contradictions of the church in the matter of sexuality," he said. "In a sense, he is casting himself aside in order to let those contradictions rise to the surface."
Benedict cited his age when he announced his resignation on Feb. 11 though he has also referred to the Vatican's difficulties. The 115 cardinals who will elect his successor have assembled in Rome but they will not see the Vatileaks report because Benedict decreed that only the next pontiff will get a copy.
Related:
- Riots, revenge and royal rigging: A history of controversial conclaves
- 'Jesus Christ with an MBA'? Cardinals' differing hopes for next pope
- Full coverage of the papal abdication from NBC News
Leave a Comment:
The pope resigned because he is implicated in some sort of scandal detailed in the papers his butler sought to make public. There are all sorts of secrets held in the Vatican that would shame the entire clergy if they ever managed to become public. If all their secrets were known, there would be no reason to say mass in Latin, wear robes instead of 'real clothes', make such a mystery out of selecting a new pope, and many of the clergy would be sitting in jail right now. The pope quit because he knows something he is not willing to face up to!!!
Any male is going to engage is some sort of sex. I do not think it is possible not to.
Cut off both hands , tongue, D^%K and balls you still have anal stimulation
Ever wonder what is in the Basement?
All one big joke
To be defrocked? Imagine having to go through life with no frocks.
No frocking way!...
It's obvious to me that this evil pope resigned because the documents prove he has also taken part in sexual abuse of children. Their entire orgainization is a clubhouse of sexual abusers of children and adolescents. They should be shot against a wall. All of them.
"Exposing Vatican secrets a 'dangerous' mission, says Vatileaks journalist"
Is it because it involves money and weird sex perhaps?
As a non-Catholic outsider looking in, it seems the "church" that Christ built hasn't resided in Rome in a very long time, if ever.
this isn't the church Christ built.
This is a "man man Religion!" perverts is what they are, like it or not!!!
Really Christians live and act like Jesus Christ!!!
Really Believers do not hord $$$!!!
backtobasics:
You have specific knowledge of your assertions? Please provide verifiable evidene of your claims. One might say it is also obvious that you have no clue about anything you ever say or write due to your limited cognitive skills and that you are an atheist shill from the planet ignorus. However, since we don't know anything about you, those accuations would be mindless drivel - much like yours.
jerry: I've always wondered how the "faithful" haven't been able to see the hypocrisy of the Church just from the standpoint that Christ railed against the Priests and Pharisees of his day, and the Church has created a monstrosity to match it. And like them, this modern day look-a-like, will struggle to survive. There are too many dark secrets to keep secret. Yet, the faithful may always remain faithful, because, after all, what's left when faith fails?
I suppose that it's not surprising that there doesn't appear to be anything that the Church can do that will really drive the flock away. The fact is that we all live in some sort of fantasy land.
@mj899: Misandrist much?
It is not genuine faith in our Almighty God that has failed, the co-called church has failed God in a large way.
"An astonishing situation, even a horrible thing, has been brought to be in the land: "The prophets themselves actually prophesy in falsehood; and as for the priests, they go subduing according to their powers. And my own people have loved it that way; and what will you men do in the finale of it?"
Please also see chapter 7 verse 4 where God warns that the "church" or temple will not save them. Obedience to Almighty God through the example of Jesus Christ is the true house of God. Due to falsehood and disobedience to God, Not one of man's religions can stand; they are all falling.
Sorry, that's Jeremiah 5:30 & 31 in the Bible, in my previous comment.
Please also see 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2, verses 3 through 12. ".....and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that the might be saved. So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness."
Why ANYONE has ANYTHING to do with the Catholic Church anymore is beyond me. Talk about "wolves in sheeps clothing." The "Catholic Church" has NOTHING to do with being "Christ like", not in my opinion anyway.
All speculation! Negative, of course!
Witchrunner, it is possible to have faith in God without having faith in the Church. I find that churches are built by men and often have little to do with what the Christ actually said and did.
Pure Media Bullcrap:
What secrets?????Where are they???? Are YOU going to keep them a secret?????
The Catholic church would do well to return to the time when priests could marry and have a family. Even popes once married and had kids - legally and out in the open. When it became forbidden, there were still assignations between the sheets behind closed doors. One reason the Vatican elite are elderly is to further the impression of celibacy, at least of the adult heterosexual sort. Celibacy is just a ridiculous and bizarre tenet that brings layers of turmoil, as the world see clearly now that the lid is off the pot. Heck, during medieval times, much of the nunnery and priesthood were not even terribly religious; excess offspring - not all of whom were legitimate - were expensive to feed and clothe. Under primogeniture laws, only the firstborn son had value. The others had no prospect of ever benefitting the family unless they could be bartered into arranged marriages for land and power, and only the landed could do that. So excess children were given to the Church, dumped there for life. The only other option was the streets or selling them into what was essentially slavery. This is how much of the beginnings of the church came about, and why tunnels have been discovered between monasteries and convents, with tiny skeletal remains buried within in the walls. Celibacy for the pope and elites was to prevent them from bequeathing vast riches to their children, instead of the church = greed, pure and simple. In that respect, nothing has changed over the past 1000+ years. How any female can belong to this cult and send their children into its arms is astonishing.
heartlight: Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I'm referring to faith in the Catholic Church. Why would anyone want to go to a place to receive their spiritual guidance knowing that those who are giving it are much less than admirable? Well, because that's what they were brought up with and it's easier to stick with what you know than jump to the vast unknown.
My, how revealing of the intellectual deterioration illustrated by two or three of these comments. They show their writers know nothing factual about the Vatican... and when Nuttzzy the self-termed "Journalist" quotes his absurd "butler" aka "Maria" something or other...
... how the fetished comments here fly. How pathetic their capers are in their paraphilia, which only demonstrate their paltry slanders of the decency and honor of what they could never understand with their limited cranial contents.
No manners. No veracity. No insights to honor and decency in Life. Do rejoin the Neanderthals from which you developed.
Hello folks, let's join the Neanderthals!
When it comes to bull@!$%#, big-time, major league bull@!$%#, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bull@!$%# story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!
But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bull@!$%# story. Holy @!$%#!
But I want you to know something, this is sincere, I want you to know, when it comes to believing in God, I really tried. I really, really tried. I tried to believe that there is a God, who created each of us in His own image and likeness, loves us very much, and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize, something is @!$%#ed up.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the résumé of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of @!$%# you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently-run universe, this guy would've been out on his all-powerful ass a long time ago. And by the way, I say "this guy", because I firmly believe, looking at these results, that if there is a God, it has to be a man.
No woman could or would ever @!$%# things up like this. So, if there is a God, I think most reasonable people might agree that he's at least incompetent, and maybe, just maybe, doesn't give a @!$%#. Doesn't give a @!$%#, which I admire in a person, and which would explain a lot of these bad results.
So rather than be just another mindless religious robot, mindlessly and aimlessly and blindly believing that all of this is in the hands of some spooky incompetent father figure who doesn't give a @!$%#, I decided to look around for something else to worship. Something I could really count on.
And immediately, I thought of the sun. Happened like that. Overnight I became a sun-worshipper. Well, not overnight, you can't see the sun at night. But first thing the next morning, I became a sun-worshipper. Several reasons. First of all, I can see the sun, okay? Unlike some other gods I could mention, I can actually see the sun. I'm big on that. If I can see something, I don't know, it kind of helps the credibility along, you know? So everyday I can see the sun, as it gives me everything I need; heat, light, food, flowers in the park, reflections on the lake, an occasional skin cancer, but hey. At least there are no crucifixions, and we're not setting people on fire simply because they don't agree with us.
Sun worship is fairly simple. There's no mystery, no miracles, no pageantry, no one asks for money, there are no songs to learn, and we don't have a special building where we all gather once a week to compare clothing. And the best thing about the sun, it never tells me I'm unworthy. Doesn't tell me I'm a bad person who needs to be saved. Hasn't said an unkind word. Treats me fine. So, I worship the sun. But, I don't pray to the sun. Know why? I wouldn't presume on our friendship. It's not polite.
I've often thought people treat God rather rudely, don't you? Asking trillions and trillions of prayers every day. Asking and pleading and begging for favors. Do this, gimme that, I need a new car, I want a better job. And most of this praying takes place on Sunday His day off. It's not nice. And it's no way to treat a friend.
But people do pray, and they pray for a lot of different things, you know, your sister needs an operation on her crotch, your brother was arrested for defecating in a mall. But most of all, you'd really like to @!$%# that hot little redhead down at the convenience store. You know, the one with the eyepatch and the clubfoot? Can you pray for that? I think you'd have to. And I say, fine. Pray for anything you want. Pray for anything, but what about the Divine Plan?
Remember that? The Divine Plan. Long time ago, God made a Divine Plan. Gave it a lot of thought, decided it was a good plan, put it into practice. And for billions and billions of years, the Divine Plan has been doing just fine. Now, you come along, and pray for something. Well suppose the thing you want isn't in God's Divine Plan? What do you want Him to do? Change His plan? Just for you? Doesn't it seem a little arrogant? It's a Divine Plan. What's the use of being God if every run-down shmuck with a two-dollar prayerbook can come along and @!$%# up Your Plan?
And here's something else, another problem you might have: Suppose your prayers aren't answered. What do you say? "Well, it's God's will." "Thy Will Be Done." Fine, but if it's God's will, and He's going to do what He wants to anyway, why the @!$%# bother praying in the first place? Seems like a big waste of time to me! Couldn't you just skip the praying part and go right to His Will? It's all very confusing.
So to get around a lot of this, I decided to worship the sun. But, as I said, I don't pray to the sun. You know who I pray to? Joe Pesci. Two reasons: First of all, I think he's a good actor, okay? To me, that counts. Second, he looks like a guy who can get things done. Joe Pesci doesn't @!$%# around. In fact, Joe Pesci came through on a couple of things that God was having trouble with.
For years I asked God to do something about my noisy neighbor with the barking dog, Joe Pesci straightened that @!$%# out with one visit. It's amazing what you can accomplish with a simple baseball bat.
So I've been praying to Joe for about a year now. And I noticed something. I noticed that all the prayers I used to offer to God, and all the prayers I now offer to Joe Pesci, are being answered at about the same 50% rate. Half the time I get what I want, half the time I don't. Same as God, 50-50. Same as the four-leaf clover and the horseshoe, the wishing well and the rabbit's foot, same as the Mojo Man, same as the Voodoo Lady who tells you your fortune by squeezing the goat's testicles, it's all the same: 50-50. So just pick your superstition, sit back, make a wish, and enjoy yourself.
And for those of you who look to The Bible for moral lessons and literary qualities, I might suggest a couple of other stories for you. You might want to look at the Three Little Pigs, that's a good one. Has a nice happy ending, I'm sure you'll like that. Then there's Little Red Riding Hood, although it does have that X-rated part where the Big Bad Wolf actually eats the grandmother. Which I didn't care for, by the way. And finally, I've always drawn a great deal of moral comfort from Humpty Dumpty. The part I like the best? "All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty back together again." That's because there is no Humpty Dumpty, and there is no God. None, not one, no God, never was.
In fact, I'm gonna put it this way. If there is a God, may he strike this audience dead! See? Nothing happened. Nothing happened? Everybody's okay? All right, tell you what, I'll raise the stakes a little bit. If there is a God, may he strike me dead. See? Nothing happened, oh, wait, I've got a little cramp in my leg. And my balls hurt. Plus, I'm blind. I'm blind, oh, now I'm okay again, must have been Joe Pesci, huh? God Bless Joe Pesci. Thank you all very much. Joe Bless You!
Compliments of Mr. George Carlin. RIP
The Catholic Church is the most perfect form of hypocrisy this world has ever seen. How DARE this disgusting, pedophile cult even BEGIN to moralize over people's sex lives?
You know this First Hand or Second Hand. Either Hand you must have a hand in it....
Lazaro - Why has the Catholic Church paid so many fines? You think they have paid out millions of dollars because they are "innocent". This stuff goes ON AND ON, and you have to have your head buried in the sand if you can not accept what this instution - the "Catholic Church" really is.
With a comment like yours - you probably dont believe the Holocaust ever happened either. After all, you did not see it first-hand, did you. Therefore it never really happened - all just a fabricated lie. Ask the Nazi's, they will tell you the truth!
From the day this cult was formed, it has existed primarily for a select cabal to gain riches and political power throughout Europe and then around the rest of the globe. Anyone who has ever read a 4th grade history book knows the entire repulsive operation has long been rife with intrigue, subterfuge, hideous violence and hatred of the common people - especially everything female, which dates back to the time of the Cruasades. Vatican Inc. = nothing more than ignorance cloaked in gold and ermine ... with red shoes.
We have a journalist that makes an accusation w/o documents and we see posters that believe it w/o hesitation. Just recently we had a journalist make accusations about our President and people vilified the journalist, it seems that those that don't believe will grasp at anything to bolster their beliefs. Much like those those that claim that Obama was not born in this country. Don't like something, condemn it and smile at yourself for your self proclaimed enlightenment.
To The Jew, I absolutely believe the Holocaust happened. My deepest sympathies go out to any group or Religion who suffers under the hand of genocidal maniacs. That includes our government who under the guise of Weapons of Mass Confusion slaughtered thousands with the Medias blessings.
Cameras are only the beginning of the freak show called the Vatican . . . Slowly yet surely the world is seeing it for what it really is -- a hell-hole of back-stabbing, lying, deceitful, conniving, power-hungry, counterfeit catholics. Their aim? Power and money! . . . Money's at the root of all evil and there's enough evil in the Vatican to keep the money machine going for a long time. I'd like to know who the investors *really* are behind the lucrative business known as the catholic church. A business that rakes in hundreds of millions of dollars a year and doesn't even have a tangible product to sell. I'd like a few shares of that stock myself.
You just described the US Government to a Tee. You work for Congress?
The Lazaro,
Do you mind taking your (illogical) drivel to a political related story? Thanks.
I learned a long time ago that if you come upon a man of god and he is adorned with gold and other things, rides in a stretch limo, he wears a Rolex watch and rings big enough to make a elephant choke, you better run away as fast as you can.
All bureaucracy's are the same .... eventually .. "Power corrupts ..absolute power corrupts absolutely"
The secret is to limit the power .... thats what our constitution attempts to do .. limit the power of the central government ... it worked for a while ..
@Ron. Are you trying to describe Jimmy Swaggart or the Pope?
IS there a differnce?
"...the love of money..." not money itself, but the "...LOVE..." of money!!!
And money can buy a lot of things, except the forgiverness of sins!!!
And sin will keep you out of Heaven.
these presidents are of "...the seed of the serpent..."
and "...satan is the god of this world..."
Read the Book(KJV), it explains it all.
just believe every word in it!
Yeah, revel in the words from some superstitious guy 2000 years ago, that believed the world was flat, and told you how to treat your slaves...
I cannot understand why modern people still subscribe to this propaganda, which is totally a horrid fairy tale.
But, after seeing the fanatical drooling of the Tea Party fanatics, I fear that irrationality will become more normalized.
Your comment illustrates the influence that the church has had over the centuries. The Bible states in separate verses that 1) the earth is round and 2) it hangs upon nothing. Because the masses were mostly illiterate, they were unable to read and find this out for themselves. The clergy had the ability to read and had the only access to the written word, but chose to do nothing to correct mistaken views.
The Bible is now translated to the point where 98% of the earth's population could read it. Polls in the US have shown that most people who identify themselves as Christian haven't read it either. Therefore, to this day, those who haven't read the Bible for themselves still confuse what it states with official church doctrine.
Same folks that brought the world the torture devices the Iron Maiden , the Rack , the Pear , the Holy Inquisition and personal favorite being black gave it's blessings to American's Black Slave Trade industry. Wonder if they will ever share with the world the looted scrolls of knowledge that they have from Alexandria's Great Library of Science ...
No but I believe they have the full works of Grimm and Dr.Suess.....
All one need to understand is the Inquisition. Failing that, consider how the Church of Rome reacted to Copernicus and then the French/German Huguenots as payback for the Reformation (i.e. reform of the Catholic church.)
Jeff King,
Alas, when the Christian monks set upon Alexandria's Library they burned it to ground, destroying everything. This act of arson also included the Librarian Hypathia, a Greek mathmetican and philosopher. Before tossing HER into the flames, she was flayed alive; the woman thing really annoyed them.
Lazaro,
No chance the Vatican has the Brothers Grimm, they were demonic Lutheran apostates and as fire-worthy as lovely Hypathia. Dr. Suess: Also, a goner since he badmouthed Yurtle and other authoritarian egomanics.
What is most revealing is the fact the Vatican refuses to conduct church business in an open public fashion. How can anyone support and fund a church that discriminates against women and shields Priests from prosecution for molesting children ?
Boo hoo. The religeon was founded on the apostles . They live in the world not above the world... ..... Not your version of welfare.
Also, How can half the country support a stupid president obama. Well? Isn't it true by supporting the karzai government of afghanistan that the president supports pedophila and beating of women? Karzai has a whole family of them. See how obvious...but idiotic it sounds?
Well, I'm surprised it took this long for some RWNJ to bring Obama's name into this. Just shows that he didn't have any valid argument to make against the Catholics so he threw in Obama's name because he thought it made him look intelligent. NOT!
I have yet to see just once any of the hundreds of Newsvine articles posted, where a complete moron doesn't bring up Obama's name. What the point is baffles the senses.
You got that right!
Hummmmmmmmmmmmm Ellis Baumgarner
"What is most revealing is the fact the Vatican refuses to conduct church business in an open public fashion."
Why would you expect the Catholic theocracy to "conduct church business in an open public fashion" When a allegedly "Democratic Republic" (the United States) Wont? ..
"Secrecy" is the enemy of all fair & impartial men!
"Farewell the Rights of Man ..."
Q: where does the pope derive his Power ?
warren,
From other men
Same place as the President of The United States.
Wasn't this info provided to us in The Wizard of Oz?!?! O great and powerful, but don't look behind the curtain?!?!? Just a power struggle for money. (Maybe 30-50 years from now...Whats a pope?)
Although off topic, Lazaro has a point...but minor correction, not "the" President, but all U.S. Presidents. Follow the money. All the way to the Federal Reserve, a non governmental entity with one rep from gov't, made up of the oligarchy - oil, Wall St., banking industry, Rockefeller "Foundation", Ford "Foundation" and foreign interests, etc. Henry Ford said "It is well enough that the people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
GOD!!! I thought everyone knew the "POPE" gets his power from "GOD!!!" he is "THE CHOSEN ONE!!!"
SATAN, Lucifer, the Devil!!!
That's who controls the Pope!
According to one interpretation of scripture, The pope gets derives his authority from Jesus, who told Peter, whom Roman Catholics believe is the first pope, "You are Peter, and upon this rock (the greek name for Peter is Petros which means Rock) I will build my church." You can find that in Matthew 16:18. Ever since then, the RCC believes that every pope is a successor of Peter, to whom Jesus gives authority to make decisions that are binding with heavenly authority (verse 19). The RCC hierarchy is maintained around that belief that he is Christ's representative on earth.
In the protestant tradition, we nix the pope since there is only one mediator between God and man, and that is Jesus himself. The pope is not necessary. and our interpretation of Matthew 16 is different. We believe that the rock on which God will build his church is Peter's confession that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the Living God. The church is made up of those who confess Jesus as the Son of God.
Catholic Cardinals have “stiffened” their resolve…
They plan on “inserting” their “special agenda” into the largest “opening” they can find on the Vatican “floor”….
After they have their “say” and “voted” on a new Pope …. (with a minor pause for a cigarette of course)…
They’ll have to erase any “evidence” that they were able to “penetrate” the “will” of the faithful, by quietly sneaking out of town through the “back door.”
(Wink, Wink)
You are not clever, you are either Bevis or Butthead. Sex obsessed adolescent.
LOL!! That's the "hole" story in a "nut" shell.
They are just trying to "probe deeper" into the subject.
Although I am a straight male and believer in a supreme intellectual entity, I cannot fathom being a part of any religion that discriminates, views women as inferior, adheres to the notion of pregnant virgins or bogeymen and saviors.
You believe in a supreme intellectual entity? It doesn't sound like you've put enough thought into it to even think of belonging to a religion. If that's your standard, I believe in many supreme intellectual entities, Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawking to name just two.
DavCramer,
I have put most of 70 years of thought into it, have researched and written about it in detail.
Since you mentioned Albert Einstein. Did you know Einstein who was born a Jew once proclaimed in a letter to a friend, "If there is an evil upon this Earth, it is religion, a political establishment which adheres to childish myths of demons and heroes, a political establishment that commands obedience for fear of the otherwise."
Einstein also said, "Through all my study and experience, there is no doubt in my mind there is a more capable intellect than we."
The Church does NOT view women as inferior. Women do not serve as priests....that is a tradition, the 12 apostles were men. Women have always played an important role in the Church. And were do get that the Church is discriminatory? As far as the beliefs of "pregnant virgins" and bogey men (I assume you mean the devil) these beliefs are based on faith that what occured is true.... as Christian's believe that in God all things are possible.
What ever YOUR belief system is why do you feel it necessary to belittle the Christian faith?
Sounds more like discrimination.
So?
You answered that yourself already.
But of course, it's completely absurd and totally illogical!
Belief does not equal fact.
You're free to believe whatever you want. that does not mean your beliefs are free from scrutiny!
A tradition doesn't automatically make something discriminatory.
Obviously you don't know much about how the Church set upon growing or you'd understand what I meant.
Re read the above, maybe you'll get it.
Only to those of no faith.
Again, reread the above.
Scrutiny does not equate to insults....... !
Since the "Holy" Bible was codified in 325 AD by a pagan Roman Emperor and a bunch of conscripted male bishops, it's no wonder females were left out. Again, patriarchal power would be compromised if the Gospel of Mary was included, and women were given their fair share of influence. Any student of the Catholic church can attest as to the great lengths it goes to to protect the male dominance. Rome and Egypt had women rulers but not the church.
It does if it excludes people.
Actually, i do know much and my original comment stands!
Reread my reply!
And to those who think logically and rationally!
Again, re read the reply!
I've read the posts and I see no insults.
BarbieGirl,
Not just Christians, but all major religions are based on discrimination and the premise women are inferior, and that reality, along with science is what is going to bring centuries old religions down.
Ellis, 100% agree.
Anyone who gets past the talking snake - let alone the incest and murder - but keeps going is lacking a basket full of brain cells.
Elis -
Science will not bring anything down except itself. It is full of smug, pseudo intellects with a narrow view of life and they pursue their observations of it with a basic handicap. After all these centuries they cannot regrow hair and teeth nor have they presented society with reliable cures for the major diseases such as cancer (one of many that scientists have drained society of billions of dollars for "research" since WWII) which is killing "Rhoda" as of this moment and the three "super-bugs" that are threatening the global community today.
What has religion done lately?
Science provided you with the computer you're using to type your response. You're welcome!
So you bible believers admit that all modern religions are full of made up stories? I personally like how in the good ole days god would smite people the disobeyed his one of his laws one time. Heard of anyone being smitten recently? Especially his priest who raped little boys for DECADES? Your God getting lazy recently or something? Show me one physical piece of proof that god exist and I will apologize to you. Don't come back with the ole "prove god doesn't exist BS either. It is impossible to prove a negative but since you don't understand science you probably don't understand that. The minute that you can prove dragons don't exist I will prove god doesn't exist. You see in my fantasy world dragons went back to their parallel universe when man started making cold steel that made their skin itch terribly. They are just waiting for use to stop making cold steel to return to earth. This fantasy makes just as much sense as your book of fairy tales.
I have about as much interest in this whole process as in who the next CEO of General Electric will be. And both are as untransparent as the next. So, I read this thinking it was on something else and in doing so am even more confused as to why the media is making this whole process seem "secret", etc. I mean really, who is going to elect someone the head of any huge organization and be transparent. This is about power and the management of power, behind the scenes is where this is all happens.
Plus I have about zero hope they will elect a Pope that will even bring them into the 20th century. Since Vatican II, all the Catholic church has done is reverse all the good things they decided then, since they elected all these very conservative Popes, who were really more divisive and, in my opinion, not very spiritual people. The nuns: now these are the people in the Catholic church that are carrying most of the spiritual torch!
I'm also old enough to understand how a big organization like this won't change something major, like priests marrying, without a total catastrophe of the organization going under if they don't change. Many people say they may be there, with all the sex scandals, fewer and fewer priests joining, the schism between the conservative, divisive priest(s) and the wonderful American Nuns that actually get off their ecclesiastical butts and do some charity, which by the way is what most Catholics actually value the church for according to the latest poll. It really makes me wonder WHY do women want to become nuns? You work your butt off, do good works, and what do you get, criticism from a bunch of priests whose main "product" is the ability to play politics. Go, God, can you help me understand a little here?
Man, for someone who isn't interested in "this whole process..." you sure had a lot of words to say about it.
God doesn't blog, you may need to try reaching Him somewhere else.
Dav,
And how would know God is a HIM and not both Mother and Father of all else ?
You really need to think independently and not bank on what religious leaders put in your head.
Read THE book(KJV), why don't you people read the Book???
In other words, the bible is true because the bible says so. that's circular logic.
Is it just me, or is the media trying to tell me that the shameful and secretive inner-goings-on of the RC church really matter in my life?
It's a nasty cult, nothing more. Stop pushing it as if it were the latest greatest product.
Nobody asked or forced you to be a member. Carry on.
To Jerry,
If you want to learn the word, you will not find in the the KJV. You would need to go back to aramaic text, not the translated, revised, redacted, re-translated, permutated version.
Sex and the Catholic church--what a history! Never forget the CC began in rural villages where the early priest were married and had families. However, as the number of offsprings grew the priest were holding back part of their 'pot' collections to support his growing family. The powers in Rome saw the dwindling funds and solved the problem--celibacy for the priest. However, never forget the tunnels from the nun's convent always led to the where the priest lived. Sex is a powerful urge--history shows that some of the more prolific sires also had the title of Pope!
Where in the world did you get that enlightening piece of information????
Historical fact, Barbie doll. Read any western civ history book.
Catholics = ignorants. Never met an intelligent Catholic.
It is amazing how humans being still join cults and we are in the 21st century.
I'm sure you've met intelligent Catholics, you just never realized they were Catholic. Just as Catholics meet ignorant non-Catholics every day, they just don't realize they are non-Catholic.
I never met an intelligent Republican, Democrat, Racist, Bigot, or anyone posting an opinion on Newsvine.
How do you do? Pleasure to meet you.
The unintelligent people I meet are those that demean other people's faith system. You just moved to the top of that list.
BarbieGirl,
The unintelligent people I meet are so closed minded they believe the only truth is in what they are taught by their faith.
A very wise man once said, "Truth and knowledge are sometimes fleeting, solutions and answers are sometimes bizarre, but only through open minds can truth and knowledge flow, closed minds most often serve as harbor to fear and ignorance."
You are confusing religious doctrines with faith in God..... they are two different things.
The Lazaro, as in your post 12.2---I expect you consider yourself none of those, but it seems I've seen your name here quite often. LOL
Time for an American pope.
Bill O'Reilly should be the new pope. He is biggest drug addicted, pedophile, bigot in America today. FoxNews blows smoke each and every broad cast.
His audience is at the same intellectual level as the ignorants the follow cults leaders such as the pope.
It always makes me laugh when people use slanderous attack when they have nothing of value to add to a conversation. Talk about "the ignorants".
Alex,
I'm no fan of O'Reilly, believe me, but to viciously slander a person, as I think you've done, says more about you than the right and their supporting media.
BarbieGirl-936850 Your name alone shows how confused you truly are! Barbie Doll, the one doll GOD INC had chosen for all his female followers to look like? The one doll every RICH GIRL strives to be like as a child? Shiny Cars, Shiny Houses, and all the ACCESSORIES one little spoiled brat could ever dream of!!!! Ya this Comments Section is right where you belong!!!
For the rest of you False and Fake understanding and followers of RELIGION INC pull your head out of the sand, quicker than that CATHOLIC PRIEST pulled out of that 12 year old boy!!!
the pope resigned becaue likely has an illness like alzheimers and be dead in a year. I don't think its any of those conspiracy you nuts have going on in your heads.
Popes don't resign because of illness.
Popes haven't resigned in centuries. So the reason for this resignation is an open question-- health, not having strong enough personality to stand up to internal power wielding clerics, feeling clueless about how to fix the troubles and being willing to pass the task to someone who might be inspired to fix it, being guilty, feeling guilty, fearful for the reputation of the entire Church should certain allegations come out, ... We just don't know.
I hope that a good man or good woman is chosen as the coming Pope.
I hope that a great man is chosen as Pope. Catholicism deserves better than some who choose to serve her. Hopefully it will be a strong outsider willing to clean house. When things get bad enough, reformers come along.
Leroy Brown, I suppose your privy to the inner workings of the Vatican?
the pope is "JUST" like any other man: "A sinner!!!"
he is going to die just like any other man, "...for the wages of sins is death."
If he wasn't a sinner, he wouldn't die!
And Jesus Christ, the Son of God died for "OUR" sins!!!
Amen & Amen.
And your point is?????????????
The Pope resigned because of illness? Highly doubtful especially after they played Weekend at Bernies with the last Pope.
In 1994 I shared a taxi in Rome with a Vatican priest who groped my crotch in the dark despite my shouts that he get his hands off me. When the cab stopped at the curb I opened the door and leaped to the sidewalk as the taxi drove away at a high rate of speed. The priest looked at me through the back window. His face wore a leer as he raised his middle finger to bid me goodbye. The next day I hailed a cab for the airport and it was the same taxi driver who confirmed to me that he saw what I experienced the night before all the time for as long as he had driven cabs. "All the priests do it." he said. He then told me if he were not driving he would never get into a cab with a priest in the city of Rome. "Its not safe." he said.
Its not safe in detroit either at the wrong time. How do you know he was a vatican priest and not a guy who was wearing a black robe trying to rob you and molest you? You dont. I guess everyone in the vatican carries a big sign...I am vatican priest.
A friend of mine in catholic highschool was sent to the principals office for being bad. The principal was a priest. My friend claimed the priest grabbed his crotch. Years later that priest was sued by multiple people for sexual abuse.
Riiiiiiight.............. With the imagination you have you ought to try authoring fantasy books!
They are perverts!!!!
What part of this "man made religion" do you people not understand???
The perversion is man made..... NOT the religion. By religion I mean the belief and faith in God.... you have to learn to separate the two.
Man has created a monster. Instead of using their mistakes to make religion more promising, they have created an underbelly by using fear of the damnation by religion. Now many are questioning religion as a whole So don't blame any one here for not believing. Blame the people who talked the talk but walked a totally different journey. It has come from being an entity of comfort to one of deception. I would say to you it is not only the priesthood but it also includes people involved with the church. Organists, cleanup volunteers, etc not all but enough. And the tactic they use is how well they know a parent or grandparent. Those of you who speak positively about the Catholic Church may have not been touched by the horror of Pedophilia. You have not seen the addictions and mental torment of your blood. You have not come home to find your child hanging from a light fixture or bullet wound to the head. So while you all try to beat up we who no longer believe, think about if your child was ever left alone with a priest.
BarbieGirl,
You are the one confused, faith in God is not reserved to those who congregate. I, and many Deist/Theist like many of the framers of the US Constitution believe in God but not religion....That is why the very first sentence of the first amendment to the US Constitution reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,
What is heroic about resigning to cover up a scandal?
every think he might be ill? or do you just spew hatred like the rest of the zombies for fun!
Nobody is denying he is hiding the Vatican Bank scandal. Even he says only his successor will be allowed to see the documents. You don't hide something for no reason.
Talk about a zombie!
About as heroic as being a member of the Media who with carefully chosen words and sensationalism creates the environment called Journalistic Reporting. Anyone with a basic education and a television can observe this perverted circus anytime they choose.
The Lazaro, stop making excuses for that bunch of lying, thieving pedophiles. You can do that by refusing to continue to drink the Kool-Aid, and instead, beginning to think for yourself. That change would be very much welcome, and not only here.
I have no opinion about Religion. To each his own. As far as The Media and The United States Government. Those are the largest group of lying, thieving pedophiles on the face of the Earth.
The new Pope could and should release the report.
Can't the "College of Cardinals" call for the release of the report NOW? Isn't the "College of Cardinals", as one heart, one corpus, the closest that the Roman Catholic Church has presently to being its papal leader?
He won't ... if ratzi was scared, he will be scared s h i t l e s s
Released reports or not, who cares, anyone with half a brain can see that the catholic church is evil. Anyone with any sense has known that for many years. The real question is when are the stupid 'sheep' going to get the message and close their wallets.
I mean no dis-respect to any Catholics, but the Vatican is a fraud hiding their crimes behind the scenes using satanic religion which is their true religion. They control most major resources on the planet through back door hidden treaties with British and European oligarchs. Their true religion is based on ancient Roman Babylonian mystery religions that includes the Knights of Malta and the now famous and exposed Illuminati . . .
I'll bet you know this first hand because the Media told you. Not because you witnessed first hand any event that would have allowed you to formulate an impartial opinion.
Lazaro,
That is exactly the trouble many people have with validating anything in the Bible, there is no way to cross examine any of the proclaimed first hand witnesses, if there were any.
Anytime you have a knowledge and try to openly speak about it people will try to discredit it in many ways. Why would the Catholic church be any different than any other organization ? People get afraid of change. Real knowledge motivates change.
You want to get some real honesty out of them.....ask them to show you where in the architecture of scriptures the answer is to who are the persons in the middle of Leonardo's Last Supper painting ? Not what it means, because that can be manipulated, but exactly where in the scriptures. It's there. It would shake the foundation of their house. Why, because it's not the answer they want to hear.
Luci,
More questions: Who witnessed a serpent with no vocal cords speaking to Eve about the forbidden fruit. Who witnessed an angel speaking to Joesph in his sleep about Mary carrying the son of God. And when Cain took unto him a wife, was it not his sister since Eve was the only women upon earth? Or what about 15 cubits (25 feet) of water covering all the mountains on Earth in the verse of Noah's arch, and did Noah know about the new world when he set out to capture two of all creeping, crawling things and a 150 day supply of food for them.
A fairly wise Pastor friend once told me, " You must have faith and not place stock in the accuracy of every statement or word in the Holy Bible."... I ask him, "But how can I have faith when I do not know WHICH statements or words are inaccurate?"
Ellen, to answer your questions in order:
Who witnessed a serpent with no vocal cords speaking to Eve about the forbidden fruit ?
I did.
Who witnessed an angel speaking to Joseph in his sleep about Mary carrying the son of God ?
I did. Helps if you understand that Joseph, the king of dreams, is the same Joseph of the Old Testament. It's a prophetic statement and doesn't actually reveal the name of the woman.
And when Cain took unto him a wife, was it not his sister since Eve was the only woman upon the earth ?
NO, not his sister. Not the only woman on earth.
Last question is subjective. Are you including all of the children, the first born sons which were killed by Herod ? Actually, water covered the whole earth, not just the mountains and in order to find dry land you have to find those children, that is where the olive branch is, with the children.
How to know which statements or words are inaccurate.........You have to know how to build it from origin.
The pope is 85 and claims he's too weak to continue.
Meanwhile, Hugh Hefner is 86 and he just married a 26- year old.
Are we learning about a church full of pedophiles or a church full of gay men? In the eyes of the church is there a difference could they be murderers just as easily?
The Catholics are a group (like any religion) who follow blindly.
They are centered around not the church or God, but around what others see themselves as.
Many Catholics I know only go to church for recognition of peers.
They would not (or think they would not) be able to survive without going to church.
They are only there for social recognition.
Not all, but most.
All religions have good people going to services for reasons other than this.
But, there are MANY who only go to be seen.
Businessmen and women who are in religion have a need to go.
Otherwise they would be shunned.
I know MANY Catholics who sin all week, go to church on Sunday, and it will never change.
And it's not just Catholics.
I have studied religion all my life.
I have come to a conclusion.
If you are sincere, you can talk to God on your own.
Religion is only good for one thing.
Wars, and bleeding people of their hard earned money and time.
The definition of Religion: "Man trying to get into heaven."
that the definition of religion!
You do not want a "Religion," you want a "relationship" with God the Father: "Father/son" relation.
A good father takes cares of his family, God does take care of His children.
Viewer,
True, since God is the energy of life and is everywhere, you can say your piece at any time, anywhere..... Within each of us God placed a copy of the one and only accurate and unabridged Bible upon Earth. It is always with us and at hand for reference, and is there to advise us whether we have made a righteous decision or not through feelings of contentment or guilt............If we all listened to and acted upon the advice of our Conscience, there would be no war, discrimination, hatred, murder or greed....It is all up to us whether we choose to act for self serving purposes or out of love and compassion....LET YOUR CONSCIENCE BE YOUR GUIDE !!!
To test the accuracy of any religious text which proclaims God is All-mighty, All-knowing and All-loving, ask yourself these questions.
If I were all-mighty, is there any mountain I could not move ?
If I were all-knowing, could Lucifer or anyone else deceive me ?
If I were all-loving, could I love any of my children less, or allow any of them to anguish in Hell or any place else for eternity ?
I pray that you ( the pope ) will tell the world the truth about the flawed inside investigation into the church's still on going sex abuse.
BETTER YET LET THE POLICE INVESTIGATE or SOME INDEPENDENT BODY!!!!!
COME CLEAN!!!!!
You owe it to the world!!!! SPEAK TO YOUR PEOPLE!!!! COME OUT OF THE VATICAN CLOSET!!!
JESUS would tell us THE TRUTH.... JESUS doesn't hide anything from us..... DO IT FOR YOUR SELF !!!
DON"T HIDE BEHIND THE VATICAN CURTAIN!!!
When you spread out your hands in prayer,
I hide my eyes from you;
even when you offer many prayers,
I am not listening.
Your hands are full of blood!!!!
I pray that you ( the pope ) will tell the world the truth about the flawed inside investigation into the church's still on going sex abuse.
BETTER YET LET THE POLICE INVESTIGATE or SOME INDEPENDENT BODY!!!!!
COME CLEAN!!!!!
You owe it to the world!!!! SPEAK TO YOUR PEOPLE!!!! COME OUT OF THE VATICAN CLOSET!!!
JESUS would tell us THE TRUTH.... JESUS doesn't hide anything from us..... DO IT FOR YOUR SELF !!!
DON"T HIDE BEHIND THE VATICAN CURTAIN!!!
When you spread out your hands in prayer,
I hide my eyes from you;
even when you offer many prayers,
I am not listening.
Your hands are full of blood!