The killer storm that pummeled the East Monday and left the nation's largest city with a crippled transit system, widespread power outages and severe flooding has resurfaced the debate about how best to protect a city like New York against rising storm surges.
"Hurricane Sandy is a wake-up call to all of us in this city and on Long Island," Malcolm Bowman, professor of physical oceanography at State University of New York at Stony Brook, told NBC's Richard Engel, who surveyed the damage from a police helicopter Thursday. "That means designing and building storm surge barriers like many cities in Europe already have."
Bowman points to storm surge barrier projects in St. Petersburg, Russia, and in the Netherlands as models. In the Netherlands, a country where a considerable part of the population lives below sea level, such barriers help control flooding in some of the most densely populated areas.
"If we had such barriers in place during Hurricane Sandy there would have been no damage at all," Bowman said.
Before the storm, Mayor Michael Bloomberg's administration had said it was working to analyze natural risks and the effectiveness of various coast-protection techniques, including storm-surge barriers. But officials had noted that barriers were only one of many ideas, and they have often emphasized more modest, immediate steps the city has taken, such as installing floodgates at sewage plants and raising the ground level while redeveloping a low-lying area in Queens.
"It's a series of small interventions that cumulatively, over time, will take us to a more natural system" to deal with climate change and rising sea levels, Carter H. Strickland, the city's environmental commissioner, told The New York Times this summer.
Sandy sent a record 14-foot storm surge into New York Harbor, flooding subway tunnels and airports. It forced the closure of the stock market for two days, the first time that's happened for weather-related reasons since 1888. There's no estimate yet for the cost of the devastation in New York City, but forecasting firm IHS Global Insight put the cost of the damage along the coast at $20 billion, plus $10 billion to $30 billion in lost business.
Graeme Forsyth, an engineer for CH2M Hill in Glasgow, Scotland told The Associated Press that his firm's early-stage proposal for New York is a levee-like barrier that would stretch five miles from the Rockaway peninsula in Queens on Long Island to the Sandy Hook promontory in New Jersey. The barrier would stop a surge of 30 feet, twice the height from Sandy. Gaps would allow ships, river water and tides through, but movable gates could close off all of New York Bay from the Atlantic when necessary. The barrier would protect most of the city, with the exception of Rockaway itself. It would also shield parts of New Jersey.
An animation, produced by the Dutch company Arcadis, shows how a sea gate could protect New York Harbor when a storm surge is imminent. The gates would close and block the water from entering the harbor until the danger has passed.
"Some people may say that storm barriers are an extreme solution," Bowman told NBC News. "I just would say it's bold, it's imaginative, it's permanent in the sense that it could protect the city for another 150 years. The Europeans have done it, why can't we?"
Some scientists, however, say there needs to be a holistic approach and that barriers are only one part of the solution.
Cynthia Rosenzweig, a senior research scientist at the Goddard Institute for Space Studies at Columbia University, told NBC News that as the region rebuilds, developers must take into account rising sea levels.
"The better way is for New Yorkers to be smart from engineered solutions like tidal barriers, fixing the subways where they're vulnerable, fixing our sea walls, remaking our wetlands so that we can, across our whole region and for all our 21-and-a-half million people, protect against the next Hurricane Sandy," Rosenzweig said, adding that even the Dutch now admit they can't protect everyone with barriers.
In the wake of Sandy, Bloomberg, too, appeared skeptical.
"I don’t know that I think there’s any practical ways to build barriers in the oceans, when you have an enormous harbor like we do," he said in a press conference.
But for Bowman, the time to act is now.
"It's a question of national security. It's a question of survival. It's a question of the future population being able to live there so it's taken very, very seriously," he said.
The Associated Press contributed to this report.
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Report on the Con Ed power failure reports, Con-Ed and "climate change" failure, 3D substation maps-images, see:
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The idea of building a giant seawall is absurd!
Are we going to surround every coastal city? All of our coast? Who would pay for such a massive engineering project that would make the interstate system look like small potatoes in comparison?
The only solution is to NOT build infrastructure that is so at risk every time a hurricane comes. Furthermore, we can no longer allow for our atmosphere to be a sewer for our waste that anybody, big and small, can dump into. I hope that it was mostly Climate Change Deniers who had their beachfront homes wrecked!!
It won't be long and there will be another "100 year hurricane/storm surge".
More money down the rathole, or should i say hudson....mother nature just slapped the east coast, wait until the uppercut comes, seawall or not NYC is doomed, you can;t build live on sea level or below real estate and not expect disasters like this....this was just the warning, but bloomberg and co. will fiddle the time and money away on "marathons"....NYC is not holland or the netherlands....
Escape from New York is coming to fruition! Seawall becomes maximum security prison walls.
Maybe if Bloomberg let them have cups larger than 16 ounces, they could bail the water out faster.
Per John Hunt we should just abandon the entire US seacoast and the cities located there. After all both the east and west coast are subject to occasional hurricaines, tsunamis, etc. Let's just relocate the entire population to, say, Omaha. I think those living more than 100 miles inland can remain where they are.
After all, why does this country really need seaports, anyway?
Just as California has learned to build in accordance to the earthquakes they get periodically, the east coast will need to learn to build coastal communities with more of an eye on storm surge. I live in MA and every time we have a strong Nor'easter it seems that one older home sitting on a dune falls into the ocean.
Local zoning needs to re-evaluate how far back from the ocean homes and businesses should be built, and if levies need to put in certain areas.
The problem with areas that surround NY and Boston and other coastal cities is that much of it is filled marsh land. When heavy storms hit, nature tries to take back those lands.
@Severed...I hope you're being sarcastic and not stupiddd. How do expect to get our imported goods without seaports? Air transport would be financially prohibitive and trucking internationally is not a reality.
Sorry we need seaports...and we have enough problems in Omaha without importing the East Coast and its problems...LOL!
More than fifty percent of the population lives in coastal areas. The cost to move them and all the businesses , schools, hospitals, etc would cost more than we can bear.
To help stranded folks on Staten Island and other coastal communities the federal government should send aircraft carriers and available cruise ships to accommodate people most in need of care.
The carriers are already there. Obama tasked them immediately after the storm stopped.
A seawall is not going to help. You can't stop the ocean, and the amount of power roiled up in this storm was pretty extraordinary. Maybe if it was a normal tropical storm, a sea wall woul dhave helped. But this was no normal.
The water would have found ways around the sea wall. Take New Orleans for example. When Hurricane Isaac hit, New Orleans was spared most damage. However places that never got flooded before got flooded during Isaac. A seawall is not going to change the fact that the rain comes down in buckets or the storm surge backs up every toilet in a 10 mile radius.
It is what it is.
the water might have found a way around it, however the impact would have been reduced. unless you completely seal off the island, of course the water will rise, but in this case minus wave velocity considerably.
There are carriers there already. And Cruise Ships are owned by private NON-US companies in most cases. Good luck trying to get one of those.
There's a lot being done and from the reports I heard today more going up. As hard as it is to ask people need patience and remember to help their neighbors.
Help is coming. We haven't forgot.
Yes it can. One word. Holland.
Flood control in the Netherlands
I may be wrong, but I don't believe our government has a fleet of cruise ships that they can just dispatch as they please. Cruise ships are owned by cruise lines, and they have them booked a couple years in advance. The government does not just have the power to send them wherever there is a disaster because they don't own them (yet).... If Obama gets re-elected, we will probably see the federal government have the power to seize anything they want and do with it whatever they want, and the owners be damned.
Tell that to the Dutch...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_control_in_the_Netherlands
damn, someone beat me to it. On a side note, when I heard Bloomberg say in a press conference the other day "there is no practical way to build a sea wall" (paraphrasing) I wanted to punch him through my television...
Why?
Why, should federal "tax" dollars (money borrowed from China) be spent on any disaster? How come every disaster people are always looking to "big brother" for a hand? Every time we accept dollars from the feds there is a little caveat to it, we take another link out of the chain. Before long (like right now) we can't do anything without the feds help and rules about what we can and can't do. I say we do it ourselves or at least the local level and tell the feds we don't need them as bad as they need us. Let's use a little of that great pioneer spirit that built this country to rebuild it.
Holland also doesn't get hit by tropical cyclones, a.k.a. hurricanes. In a system like New York Harbor you could block the direct assault of a surge of water, but that energy will be deflected elsewhere. Never, ever underestimate the power of the open ocean. And yes, I am a marine biologist (not physical oceanographer, admittedly).
Maybe they should have evacuated when they had the chance.................Thank goodness it was only a cat #1
spoken like a true "compassionate conservative." We help people rebuild because it's the right thing to do, it's called shared sacrifice.
And since at some point EVERYONE will see the benefit of this social norm and protocol, there is nothing to bitch about. If you disagree, we can cut Kentucky off from the funding if you want. That being said, good luck when New Madrid blows up next time...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Madrid_Seismic_Zone
this is a legitimate point. The North Sea is home to plenty of very large storms, and large tidal surges, so surges this large CAN be stopped. But your point about where to deflect the energy is a good one and would cause large engineering issues/problems.
You couldn't just wall up New York harbor without crushing staten and long island, any sea wall system would have to be quite large and extensive, and possibly prohibitively expensive. But storms like Sandy are gonna come more and more, and rebuilding Manhattan every 3 to 5 years will likely cost more than a seawall in the long term.
When there are over 18 million people living in a shoe box there is no practical way to protect them from any calamity, natural or man made.
Who was it that decided to concentrate large portions of population in high risk areas?
The strategic anomalies are amazing!
Man is indeed his own worst enemy.
Doesn't appear FEMA has improved much since Katrina, or different President makes one bit of difference in getting people help they need after a disaster.
Instead of wasting money for decades on stupid wars overseas we should build infrastructure to protect our own people here in US!
So says the guy who's high and dry in Kentucky...
KY Jelly,
We should privatize it. Then when a disaster hits, the job creators will come to the rescue provided you give them your life savings, your pension, list them as the beneficiary on your life insurance policy, and give them anything of value you might still own. Yeah, that will work but we already have that in the housing market.
Our country clearly needs some infrastructure upgrades and as far as the coast goes this has been long time coming. Actually it probably could've been even worse. Its bad no doubt, but what if an even larger storm came thru? What if they would've got a large surge plus buckets of rain? What I'm saying is how much longer do we need to wait until we finally do something?
Hopefully this will get us in to high gear. With that being said I agree with the points others have made. That would be one hell of a sea wall and I think you could do it but it sure would cost major $$. And sorry but we all have seen first hand how some of the labor works out in New York not to mention the bureaucracy (even more $$). Its taken how long to build the Freedom Tower? Even with all that is associated with that project still should've been done by now.
Anyways, back to the point, it really could be that that might not work or you save one but ultimately sacrifice something else. But it is one of those things we will have to deal with. Can't save or protect everyone. At some point we have to ask, ok should we really rebuild here or how can we work with nature as well? I'm glad the guy in the article mentioned things like that. Its not just a case of build a wall and say now we are good. There is more to it than that and we have to be very smart about the approach and accept that some people won't like it or that not everything can be as it was. Just like in New Orleans, some areas that probably should just be left as is and never should've been built on in the first place but we continue to dump money into something that is ultimately a losing battle. Same for the river systems, can keep building lee-vies everywhere, need to work with nature and use the floodplains that were formed over the centuries. Even the Netherlands who probably have the most advanced seawall, pumping, flood control in the world are truly living on borrowed time as long as the sea contiues to rise like it is, it will only get harder and more costly for them as the strain continues on their system.
Its all give and take and if we don't give, mother nature will have no problem taking, and then some. Best of luck to the people affected by this storm and here's to hoping we learn from this and take some common sense approaches to the problems including facing the hard and unpopular decisions that will have to be made.
It is time
@KY - Why are we spending federal money borrowed from China on stupid wars overseas? Several trillions of dollars were flushed down the toilet that way in the last decade. I hope you are against that criminal insanity as well.
Don't you know its not nice to mess with mother nature....good luck on the seawall, what about when you get 10" rain behind wall, where that runoff go?...sewers already backup on normal heavy rain events...
Since Kentucky gets more than $1.50 from the Federal Government for every $1 in tax money it sends to DC, I'd say you got NOTHING to talk about!
We are at war overseas because they attacked us here. I do not support the wars, but that is why we are there. Protect us from what?
This was a natural disaster, please note the key word disaster. There is no quick fix, I really feel for the people that are hurting, the people that lost their homes and loved ones. The truth is this however, when there are that many people concentrated in a very small area, it is very hard to help all of them. The streets are flooded in many areas, so you cannot use them. The mass transit system is damaged, there is many power outages. Many people are in high rise apartment buildings. How do you even get to them? The other problem so many of these people live in such small apartments or homes that they have no room to store anything for an emergency. Many do not own cars, so they had no way to leave if they wanted to. This brings into sharp focus how much we rely on modern technology to live. How do you help millions of people all at the same time, without using a million people to do it?
At least I've gotten people to THINK!!! It's not about "tax" dollars, it's about asking for the gov'ts help every time someone stubs their toe. There was a woman on here asking for aircraft carriers for crying out loud. When are people going to start taking care of themselves and looking out for their neighbors? This gimme, gimme, gimme crap has got to end. The Constitution says "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". It doesn't say rebuild my house if a storm comes along and blows/washes it away. Nor does it say, anything about all the other programs, freebies, and gov't "giveaways".
My question then is this. When are we going to start taking responsibility for our own welfare, and ourselves? We are becoming more and more socialistic in this nanny state that we call America.
Because for thousands of years civilizations have used the sea for commerce and shipping. Are you suggestion that our country no longer needs seaports?
What's your plan? Move these millions of people to Nebraska?
True. Let's just let these people die of exposure, injury, or lack of food and water. That way we won't need to worry about them later. Great idea! It's their own fault for not helping themselves.
@subnormal - great rationale of the warmongering crowd "we were attacked, so lets spend trillions of dollars and wage war overseas for decades with no end in sight". Try to be rational and see the logic of such a response. And better yet, ask yourself "why we were attacked?" If you mind your own business at home you will not need to waste close to trillion of dollars per year on 'defense'. Nobody attacked Switzerland because they mind their own business. We should be more like them.
So KY, you want an end to all the farm subsidies that keep your state afloat during droughts and other times? No more tax dollars to KY. Let them stand on their own. Better check with the neighbors before they grab their guns and run you out of state.
Helping each other is part of being human. If you have no compassion for others, then you are not human. You should think about all the people who did not ask for anything except what you expect to have everyday. They want warmth, food and a dry place to stay.
What country attacked us? We were in Iraq looking for nonexistent weapons of mass distruction.
Stop investing in foreign wars while our aging infrastructure degrades even further.
Imagine if the trillion dollars spent in Iraq/Afghanistan was sunk into putting Americans to work upgrading and improving our own infrastructure instead of rebuilding the ones we blow up elsewhere...
Not to mention bailing out a bunch of people for making stupid decisions with everyone elses money.
RE: MJS Remember this when you vote!!!!!!! Vote this SOB out of office !
This fool has F,,,ked up this country beyond repair now!
Hey A human view, we already messed up voting that fool out of office in 2004.
Not as bad as 2008, lefty
MJS. I have spent the last 6 months or so reading and debunking the Republican attack adds. B4 you draw conclusions you may want to check a few hundred of the adds out, not just sit and listen to Fox all day. Obama hasn't been a stand out president but then Bush was the worst president in history and is an international prior and criminal but I am sure to someone like you our standing in the world view has little meaning. So go back to Wal-mart and buy your mud flaps and truck nuts and leave politics to those who take the time and have the ability to read it.
This is hilarious. You're blaming Obama for this, when it is the Democrats that are more prone to believe in global warming, and its been the Democrats (and Democrats alone) that have called for funding for infrastructure projects.
Remember when there was money for construction/infrastructure projects in the stimulus? Do you know what the Republicans called that? "Wasteful pork."
Man, if you think voting out Obama and putting Romney at the helm will help this countries infrastructure, then you haven't been paying attention for oh say, about 15 years or more....
Nowhere did I say anything about being dispassionate. I'm only saying every time there's a natural disaster the 1st thing out of peoples' mouths is "the gov't isn't doing enough". There are plenty of agencies that are helping and the nat'l guard is there also.
Oh, by the way, we don't need to wait on an earthquake here. Back in 2009 we had a major ice storm, and we survived without "federal aid". It was reassuring that neighbors helped neighbors to clean up and get along. Some were without power for 6 weeks, AT&T lent generators to the gas distributor so they could pump fuel for deliveries and local gov't and first responders could fuel up their vehicles. Radio stations were taking calls and airing where people could find gas cans, batteries, heaters, generators, shelters, etc. So, don't preach about "compassion", I have plenty. Just don't confuse compassion with begging for handouts from the "feds".
Don't paint all Kentuckians with the same brush as KYResident. I well remember the ice storm he/she mentioned, and I have plenty of complaints for how it was handled. I don't think he/she understands the sheer magnitude of destruction of a hurricane that has packed a punch over such a wide spread area. There's a BIG damn difference between cleaning up after an ice storm, and restoring entire neighborhoods that have been washed away. It takes more than a simple community effort to get people's lives back in order after this, something that the government can provide. Would you rather have dozens of tiny organizations or one large organization that coordinate as much as possible? As an engineer, I know which one is more efficient.
I truly don't, and never have, understood this antagonistic attitude towards government help. That's one of the reasons to have a central government! Since when is giving people shelter, clothing, food, showers, toilets and heating a hand out?!? I cannot comprehend people like you! Would you rather they freeze and die of hunger or disease!?!
*
Google up "Federal Disaster Relief Kentucky Ice Storm"....KY Resident has no @!$%#ing idea what he's talking about.
...and for him to compare an ice storm with the devastation of an earthquake REALLY provides a lot of insight into the limits of his knowledge. Those limits were in all likelihood reached sometime around the 7th grade.
Seawalls DO work as long as they're high enough and strong enough. Seawalls are a proven technology that people have been using since the stone age. Misinformed people are calling the hypothetical proposed surge barrier for New York harbor a 'seawall'. Manhattan does have a seawall and that seawall was NOT breached by the storm. The Manhattan seawall was over topped because it wasn't high enough. If it had been 20 feet high, there would have been no flooding in Manhattan from this storm.
of course nobody would be able to see the sea then, but hey I am ok with that.
^this. Ice storm vs. Sandy, lol.
And by the way, when New Madrid goes off again, Memphis, Nashville, St. Louis, and Louisville will be burning heaps of rubble, literally. FEMA estimates it will be "the highest economic losses due to a natural disaster in the United States." And should it occur, I will welcome the chance to send my tax dollars there to help them out.
The new Madrid earthquake of 1812 rerouted the Mississippi river, caused it to flow upstream, and rang church bells in BOSTON!! It might be the most dangerous timebomb in America (aside from the Yellowstone supervolcano, which will kill us all) just waiting to go off...
Seawalls DO work if they are high enough? So you're telling us you want a 20ft seawall surrounding NYC,LI & NJ? Won't do much for the view that home owners pay Millions to look at.
While I agree that the land and the people will be safer, I'm quite certain ocean front property values will Sink lower than New Orleans.
As long as the country clubs are saved and you can get a tee time this weekend all is not lost.
I understand the University of Delft, in the Netherlands, offers excellent degree programs in hydraulic engineering.
How many hurricanes hit the Nederlands per year? Anything like Sandy, and half of the Nederlands would be history.
The Netherlands are below sea level. They have been flooded. This is why they rebuilt their seawalls using more modern engineering techniques and materials. Believe it or not, hurricanes are not just an American phenomenon.
unemployed, you are an idiot.
how do you figure? He's 100% correct.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_control_in_the_Netherlands
Almost half of the damn country is under sea level (including ALL of Amsterdam), and although they aren't subjected to Atlantic hurricanes it's not as if the North sea is a picnic. There are plenty of very large storms there, not to mention one of the highest concentration of rogue waves on earth, including the legendary Draupner wave. The Dutch are the world's best flood control experts, they were even brought in to consult after Katrina.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storm_tides_of_the_North_Sea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_wave
http://www.nola.com/hurricane/index.ssf/2010/04/dutch_planners_architects_want.html
Hey, at least I'll give you credit for saying "you are an idiot" and not "your an idiot"
We can't keep doing this folks. Were in for a long period of bad weather and sea level rise and we can't wall off the whole coastline.
Folks, before I lived in Cincinnati I lived in Galveston, Texas. I moved inland. New Jersey has hills, you don't have to go that far, but you really do should not build anything at lower than fifteen feet above sea level, unless your OK with it getting blown away.
It's way more practical than rebuilding where its just going to happen again and potentially starting a national trend of walling in the coastline so we can try to keep the sea back.
Yea, I live in the midwest but lived on Cape Cod 40 years ago. I'm retired and have the house up for sale and been planning on going back to the Cape or some location near the ocean on the east coast. All these weather event's are putting a damper on our plans.
RE Mark,,,,,,Your a smart man!!!! We should not build this close to Oceans and anything below 20 sea level feet! I hate to say this but these poor folks should have been aware of this on the East coast where huracanes happen yearly!
mark, right on, you build on the water line you get wet, just a matter of time, I don't feel sorry for them or New Orleans..
it's not nuclear physics
I live 8 miles from the Gulf Coast water. People learn when it cost them money. For most of the Gulf Coast we are used to Storms and only Condos are on the water side. When Ivan hit it took out the bottom floor on all and I mean ALL the condos. NYC has storms of this nature so seldom they have not yet learned. After the cleanup the Insurance companies will raise the rates or refuse to insure the homes forcing the people to move back away from the water and only condos can afford to be built on the water. If your on the RIGHT side of the eye of the storm and within 50 miles of the eye, look to get your ass kicked. I didn't know it was going to be that bad is a pretty lame statement as the eye passes over head and now your can't run and your about to get hit from the other side..
Let me quote my 9th grade earth science teacher, " If you live in a flood zone expect floods."
I agree, I mean, we should just MOVE Manhattan, and a large portion of the population centers around the globe. Miami, Boston, and Charleston, you're next on the list, start packin' your @!$%# people.
/sarcasm
Newsflash, civilizations spring up around WATER, for several major and ridiculously obvious reasons. If you need this explained to you, I don't consider it my job. Also, if you think the expense of building a sea wall is large, wait until you do the math to see how much it'll cost to displace the entire eastern seaboard inland.
DrowningGrover,
There you go applying common sense and those darn pesky facts when looking to solve a problem ;)
Yep gonna call U-Haul and get right on moving America's "First City" and its really (really, really) "Proud" residents. Then Jersey is next I'm sure Bon Jovi won't mind or The
GrampsBoss.@DrowningGrover
While you are correct that civilizations spring up around water for both as a resource and a trade-way, it doesn't justify the removal of floodplains and wetlands that are natural barriers to flooding. Hundreds of years ago, humans at least had the common sense to not build homes in these areas, but overpopulation and urbanization have thrown this mentality out the window. We've become so overconfident that we think we can build homes within throwing distance of the ocean without any repercussions, then have those homes completely carried away during a storm like this. And the technology that we think can solve these issues always comes too late and will constantly need to be updated to stay effective (which in the U.S., it isn't).
Foresight is something that needs to be utilized more in the human race to displace the hot-fix and short-term thinking that has become commonplace. While moving the entire eastern seaboard is completely outlandish, they could at least put some distance between them and the rivers/oceans while remediating the removal of the natural barriers.
100% agree.
But this is 'Merika, we don't need us no stinking bleeding-heart pansy liberal a$$ wetlands. That is prime, ocean-front real estate, think of the profit! There is nothin to learn from civilizations past. Build it higher/taller/faster and by all means, drill baby drill, there ain't nothin' quick-buck capitalism can't fix...
I thought Katrina was the wake up call? How many do people need?
It was awake up call but the nation hit the snooze button.
The private property notion is part of the problem. It allows for people to rebuild at their own risk but unfortunately, insurance companies are not always allowed to say no way will we insure you again. But worse, even though private landowners may have a means to use insurance money to rebuild, it is all of the infrastructure between these places that falls upon the shoulders of the public to burden. The repairs to the boardwalk, some public docks, roads, electrical and telephone wires (some), signage, lighting, etc. that is used by these people is not paid for by these people. Everyone else pays for it.
I agree with other posts that state the common sense, don't allow building in those areas anymore. It is not in the public interest to allow the few to build at the expense of the many.
Rockaway was not built for the few at the expense of many. You have to understand that many of our homes in Rockaway have been there for almost 100 years. Rockaway Residents have paid for our own infrastructure over the years. The bridges that bring people from all over NY to our beaches to enjoy our boardwalk were originally paid for by Rockaway Residents who have paid tolls on those bridges on a daily basis to go to and from School and work. We pay property taxes like everyone else in NYC but have fewer services such as decent public transportation and are always the last place to have our roads cleared after a storm or police protection during a black out or any time for that matter. For many years we didn't have a decent HS for our kids. To say that everyone else pays for services for the few is wrong. We have millions of people who don't live in Rockaway come down to enjoy our beaches all summer, or as you say "our infrastructure". Many of our residents are city workers, not privileged private landowners, who work hard to protect and repair our entire city after emergencies like Hurricane Sandy for a living wage.
Thank you Rockaway for talking some sense. Infrastructure is part of living in all places. And all places have disasters. You can't just abandon ship everytime something bad happens.
I have to remind people also that Hurricanes go inland. They don't hit the coast and stop. You build at your own risk when you build anything, anywhere. People have this disposable attitude nowadays. "Give up and throw away" is not an option. Of course, if you wish, you can throw away your house next time it breaks. But don't ask others to do the same.
It's not just houses either. The east coast has harbors, ports, refining facilities and naval bases. Fishing operations, lobster trapping, shrimping. The coastline exponentially more millions than this current disaster is taking out. In fact, this current disaster (speaking in dollars and cents now) may actually contribute to the economy. At my flood adjusting service, we have hired about 10 temporary workers to handle the load and we are all working around the clock to serve the disaster area.
Plumbers, roofers, electricians, engineers and construction worker are all suddenly hiring.
Rockaway131
You're partially correct. What you neglected to mention is that even into the 1970's a very large portion of Rockaway was comprised of summer bungalows that were occupied only for the summer season.
The bridges were built not just for the "residents" of the Rockaways, but for all of the people. The BONDS that the city took out to build them were what the tolls were used to pay. Very similar to Southern State Parkway, was paid for by tolls. You failed to mention that those toll booths have been dismantled.
Just sayin.
This storm helped nobama provide his shovel ready jobs...heres your shovel, start shoveling the sh#t!
I know the first pile I'd take my shovel to
Rockaway131 and others, I appreciate your opinions, but the economics of developing any area inescapable. And while I did not state anything about privileged vs non, you are perhaps defensively reading into it as your handle suggests that you are a resident of the affect area. Regardless, to say that everyone else pays for services for the few remains correct. My taxes are already helping you and I do not have a problem with that but I do expect common sense and fiscal responsibility for long term thinking. Local workers getting a short term boost in employment out of the disaster is not a sound economic argument.
The knee-jerk and often selfish demand to rebuild exactly as was is the throwaway culture, not the other way around. Because the likelihood is that the structures and investments surrounding it will once again be destroyed, simply rebuilding is wasteful and irresponsible. A long term approach is needed, especially if you care about the economy locally or nationally. It is selfish to stamp one's feet and demand rebuilding in an affected zone. This is certainly more extreme in places such as New Orleans and the Carolina barrier islands, but not recognizing the realities of known danger zones and rising sea levels is simply irresponsible.
I've been involved in the field. The amount of money and effort to build a community is enormous and most people do not understand the true cost of such an undertaking. We all subsidize each other. That's not a bad thing either, but realities are important if we ever wish to argue for fiscal responsibility and presently our government entities are being told that they need to stop spending so much.
You can't have it both ways - gimme mine but stop spending so much.
Nature will always find a way of producing a 31 foot high wave to top a 30 foot barrier. To bring NYC up to 21st century standards of urban design and sustainability is a gargantuan task. All US coastal cities face a similar risk as New York. In the end, it might make more sense to begin to relocate communities rather than rebuild in place.
Especially as seas levels rise. In-fact, sea levels have already been forecast to rise by 2-3 meters by the end of this century due mainly to Arctic and high-altitude warming, melting glaciers, frozen tundra, and ice-packs.
While Hurricane Sandy was not incredibly unusual, as there have been a half-dozen late-season hurricanes over recorded US history to hit the same general area that were even stronger than Sandy, the fact that sea levels are already up by close to one meter in the last 100 years made the storm surge that much worse than that experienced during previous NYC-area hurricanes.
So, block-off the entire mouth of New York Bay, between Sandy Hook and Rockaway, and put in some locks, how much is that going to cost, and is it even a wise use of scarce resources that might be put to better use somewhere else?
What do you figure, maybe $250 billion for a 10 mile-long seawall able to withstand Category Three hurricanes? We built the Chesapeake Bay bridge and tunnel so it obviously can be done. Or maybe just not rebuild anything within 1000 feet of the beach once it gets destroyed instead, which would be a lot less-expensive too?
Moving New York, and its populationof more than 6 million people, 20 miles inland is an even more gargantuan task. Do we have a choice?
Hey OldTimer... The Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel is not a sea wall... sure it was expensive to build, but depending on the depth of the water, an actual sea wall around NYC with the ability to open and close to permit shipping would have to be far more expensive to build. I'm no civil engineer, so maybe someone with such knowledge can enlighten us.
Bulls Eye N TX
In the storm of 1900 at Galveston, Tx. 10,000 died.
It would be expensive, ridiculously expensive. You're be talking about several of these (http://s2.hubimg.com/u/1838149_f520.jpg). They are not cheap.
But in the long run, they're probably more cost effective then rebuilding Manhattan once or twice a decade, and CERTAINLY more cost effective than moving the entire city inland.
Let me help you out Grover :)
http://s2.hubimg.com/u/1838149_f520.jpg
Pretty cool actually
Just have to sink 10 miles worth of old ships in a triple or quadruple line, then fill them full of concrete, and then start piling broken concrete on top, and dredging the sea floor some for additional cover and filler, and eventually, top the whole thing with concrete 6 feet thick, and then throw-in several of those flood barriers so ships can pass, yeah, it could be done.
Note too that I never said that the Chesapeake Bay Bridge and Tunnel was a seawall, except at the tunnel mouths. The Lake Pontchartrain Causeway is another example of the level of engineering that I was referring to also.
The ice is melting which causes more water in the oceans............gee........
do you think Gore's film said something about that?
Now the people that live at sea level, crowding to be closest to the water, and
who don't heed evacuation warnings, really deserve all this pity ?
Sea levels have been rising for centuries. In the past 10 years, the rize is about 1 inch. This continues a very old trend, and the rate is more or less the same for the past 100 years:
Google: File:Trends in global average absolute sea level, 1870-2008
I'm still searching for those elusive North Pole penguins that Al Gore is fond of.
Excuse me what the heck are you talking about. Most people evacuated. What have you been listening too? Most people are even trying to get back into their homes. They have no idea what happened to them. There is devastation every where along the coast and even inland as well. No one deserves anything. I know all of the islands in NJ evacuated. Yes, there are always the few that stay behind in any storm. But, I know for a fact that over 90% or more evacuated and were trying to get back in to their homes. They have started letting people back in as of Wed. afternoon in some places. But, in some areas people cannot get back in yet at all. So, please read up on things before you post something that is not true at all.
The sky is falling! the sky is falling!..No! The oceans are rising! The oceans are rising!.....Blah, Blah, Blah.....
Ask the people who are dealing with the storm right now if they think "climate change" is a hoax.
The NY region has had worse hurricanes and storm surges in the past, but this one hit right at NYC. The 1938 and 1954 storms both had higher surges but they were focused a little farther east. The 1938 storm made landfall on Long Island, almost 800 people died in the region, and the storm still had hurricane-force winds when it hit Quebec!
You having a brain is a hoax.
This is a huge, beautiful country we live in. It doesn't make any sense to build homes on sand bars that are only one foot above sea level. If idiots who do that assume the whole loss themselves, fine, but to expect all the other taxpayers to bail them out is just plain irritating to me.
Just Curious Dan, where is it that you live?
JUST LIKE IN JAPAN??????????????????????? DID NOT WORK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YOU CANNOT STOP MOTHER NATURE
WHO WILL BUILD THE $5BILLION SEAWALL..........BLOOMBERG OR BAIN????????
WHEN A STORM COMES GET OUT OF THE WAY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! TOO EASY?????
The only reason the tsunami wall in Japan didn't work was because it was based on a 9.0 earthquake in Chile and the tsunami it caused. Ask any seismologist or tsunami expert and they will tell you that the earthquakes that occur in Japan (between magnitude 4.0 and 5.0) were capable of creating tsunamis higher than the 13 ft. cliff they used as a deterrent (only used a natural barrier). They even found evidence dating back to the 9th century that an earthquake caused flooding up to a mile south of where the plants were. It was just incredibly bad planning on the part of those responsible for the safety of the plant.
This issue is prone to the entire human race: we only act AFTER something terrible happens (i.e. putting a stop sign at an intersection to stop speeding only after someone gets hit by a car). What we need is more foresight, and less hindsight.
Lets talk about building a big sea wall.
Talk about whatever you want, it don't change a damn thing, you got to clean up the mess and rebuild your life again.
I suggest if you don't want to get washed away-again- that you do it where you won't get flooded. Like on a hill or something!
I am very sorry for those directly affected by the storm. Surreal pictures broadcast to us in Australia. Mother nature shows her hand in many ways. In Australia we are heading into our Summer and the risk of major fires is real. We are experiencing weather paterns now that are not common for the season 30 degrees on one day , followed by 16 degrees the next day. High volumes of rain in winter, rather than in Spring so our crops fail. Global warming is real. Sadly , I think it may be too late to turn the situation around.
I feel for the folks who lost everything and they need help ASAP! Tell me we send Billions and Billions of dollars overseas, Egypt, India Iraq Japan and China, where are they now that we the US needs help?????
Foreign aid spending is not a reasonable cudgel to swing. Foreign aid is half of 1% of the total Federal budget, and much of that is in the form of loans for arms, that have to be repaid. That Foreign Aid number has dropped from 2.5% of the budget in in 1965 to about .5 today. This is minuscule compared to other budget items like Military spending, Medicare, Medicaid etc., and Social Security which make up most of the budget.
Mr.Jay....Wish in one hand, and sh$t in the other and see which one comes first....other nations helping us! Hah, most are laughing....
We will build these sea walls and they will work to keep NYC safe for one or two hundred years. That gives us time to scrub the CO2 out of the atmosphere and return our climate to it's natural cycle. This will require the cooperation of our fellow humans and we all know how cooperative large groups of humans can be. But for the cost of a month of Iraq war we could protect NY and part of NJ for a couple of hundred years.
Oh...how's that that 7% TeaGOP Congress with Mitch Mcfillibuster and the "take our Country back" American Nazi Party lobyists treatin' ya...any "social" issues first?
Reince (Kopgh) Priebus?...yeah right! The epitomy of "anyboby but the Black guy!" ...999!
How are the "new" History books selling? What were those guys (Founding Fathers') thinkin' anyway! ...oops?
"...when your philosophy demands your (gun), you then enter into a state of diminishing returns"...Anonymous.
What will we do about Mars and Venus and Mercury, the temperature is going up there, too.
Right, we just need to get them scrubbers up and running once we invent and build them. And if the rich just pay "a little bit more", money should be no problem.
Who are you kidding, and why do you want to save NYC?
How about putting that money into education and research to develop real means to power sewer city without having to blanket the planet in its waste?
Not sure about anyone else, but like Katrina. I could have sworn I saw on TV about 2-3 days before it even hit that they said to LEAVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So my question to everyone stuck in all that crap is WHY ARE YOU STILL THERE???????
You live close to the ocean, you deal with it!!! No a seawall wont help, ask the Katrina victims about that. You cannot contain mother nature
Well hell,if the east coast is shut down for a few days then the whole damn world is gonna' go down isn't it?
Round up the goats ma...this is gonna' be the big one again...I saw it on the I-Phone!
Then again...sometimes it's just tough to leave what you have.
...Kudos to those in the wake...and heart felt for those that were lost.
help!! can someone tell me how to find the comment section on the msn benghazi headlines. i'm sure msn would not remove the comments secton on such an imporant topic...............
yeah, they would and if they could think of a way, they would make everyone forget about it.
The comment section was intentionally left off so no one could debunk that twisted lie of a timeline they have put up.
I thought it was just me nice to see that others have noticed No Brains Corporations new and "Improved" (extreme sarc alert) format ;)
pmsnbc is protecting their "little boy".....they'll suppress it until after election, their cover-up of the cover-up is just an example of the crap coming down the pike...
IMPORTANT, that is.
I live high enough up in Brooklyn (elevation around 50') that I couldn't care less about storm surges.
LOL! Yea, until a 75' surge comes along then you will be whining with the rest of New Yorkers. Look, I am not from New York and don't care how many buildings come tumbling down for whatever reason, or how many get flooded. Just don't use my tax dollars to pay for your crap.
Will the lemmings on Wall Street get so crowded at the top floors that they'll have to start pushing each other out the windows? Sad to say but that might be a welcome "Throw Down" not just a "Trickle Down"! Just kidding of course.
Why be kidding? These selfish hedons do not care about anything but their wallets. Nothing is sacred to them except for the money god they worship.
Since there is no climate change, why bother to plan for it. Or maybe we should elect someone who realizes the danger and is doing something about it.
If people would quit yapping about climate change and bother to look at the history of hurricanes in New England, they'd know this was not only a fairly regular occurrence but not even as strong or deadly as some of the other storms that have hit there in the past century ...
The biggest difference was the record storm surge. Glaciers disappearing all over the world, sea levels rising. Get with the program. The latest flip flop is that climate change is real, but part of a natural cycle. Be interesting to see what the fall back position from that one is. You folks deserve Romney. He changes his colors like a chameleon.
It wasn't a record storm surge! The record storm surge in New England was in 1635 in the Boston area, with a storm surge almost twice that of Sandy's. The 1938 and 1954 storms both had higher storm surges too. The difference is Sandy happened to have a peak storm surge that happened right at NYC, instead of RI or CT, etc.
There was no 28' storm surge ever in New England, because that's how high it would have to be to be twice Sandy's. Grossly exaggerating doesn't help your argument.
"There was no 28' storm surge ever in New England, because that's how high it would have to be to be twice Sandy's. Grossly exaggerating doesn't help your argument."
"The record storm surge in New England was in 1635 in the Boston area, with a storm surge almost twice that of Sandy's."
Note that the storm was in 1635-at that point in time,most of the forests were still intact,all of the wetlands were still there,all of the coastal marshes were as yet undrained,no streams,rivers,or harbors had been dredged,there were very few structures,and nothing was paved over in concrete or asphalt.
In 1635,there could have been a 48' storm surge,and it would have had little negative effect on the area.
Yes Larry. Mankinds worst enemy is mankind. We build cities 9ft below sea level then whine when it floods.
What a beatiful place to plan a city.
What about that volcano behind us?
NO PROBLEM. It's Extinct.
Famous last words.
If the fresh water of the Columbia River could be directed down into the southwest, there would be lots of land that could be developed. Go west.
Don't laugh. There are people in California who want to do just that. Why waste all that good water by letting it return to the sea?
Why waste California by overpopulating it...Cali is just such a dreadfull place anyway according to "easterners"! Visit, spend your money, then go stay back east...and try keeping your Romney's with you! Your little Howdy Doody buddy can't surf...sorry!!! Ann's horse is welcome though...oh well, whatever. Hell, givin' his family's robust Military history, maybe the Mittster will partake in some "friendly" survival training at the local SEAL base out of Coronado...ya' think? Accordingly, the whole Romney clan would be welcome...who's that little tadpole of his that wants to punch the President? After all, they're only a "stone's throw" away and the grunion huntin' is great! Make sure your sons do VISIT often Mitt!
Oh, on a side note, hey Mitt...your new parking attendant Yo Chin said that Juan was "sent back" the other day and offered to park our car for us. We thought he was, of course, being helpfull but it's been 5 day's now and we can't seem to locate our car anywhere and Yo Chin get's very irritated when we ask him about it, his friends also seem a bit commanding at times with regards to walking in the neighborhood. A Mr. Trump was by the other day and told us not to worry about it, but still! We know you're busy but any help on your part in this matter would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks Mitt...Your friend and neighbors.
Keep building high rise developments along the East River for yuppie douches and expect taxpayers to fund sea walls.
Go jump in the river a-holes!
Maybe the big lesson here is how the government lets you down when you need its help the most.
It's always better to be self sufficient instead of government dependent and I suppose that is why we're Republican in the south.
We know these lessons in the hurricane zone to the south.
FEMA, Red Cross and a lot of the other organizations don't arrive for days to weeks and even then some areas aren't accessible to them for months.
Your best bet is to try and help yourself as much as possible until help arrives!
Funny that you should mention FEMA. When Katrina hit, FEMA was quick to respond with free $2,000 debit cards, given out to all the New Orleans minorities, no questions asked. Did any New York City whites receive $2,000 FEMA debit cards in the aftermath of Sandy? I have not heard of anyone receiving such free debit cards. Maybe there is some reverse racism going on with FEMA...
TwinkleStarz===FEMA discontinued the practice of handing out money. After Katrina we waited for over a week before any real kind of help arrived. On the other hand the Folks along the East Coast got help over night. Patience is what is needed. Help has been there already and you will see more help coming.
The majority of people on welfare are poor, rural Republicans in the south. Southern states are also a negative draw on the GDP, while northern states are positive. Essentially, northern states fund and support southern states.
So, no, self-sufficiency is not why you are Republican. Think again.
thankyou for saying it, there is a belt of states in the south that receive more federal subsidies than they pay in tax every year. and fiscal conservatives want to give the power to the states. REALLY!!! what would possibly stop state government from running themselves into the red every year ? Who would help then ? not the feds.
lefty liar
I absolutely love it when I see lefties complaining about poor people getting more tax money than they pay into the system. Oh, the irony. You realize it is YOUR progressive taxation redistribution system that causes that little fact, don't you?
YOUR belief system of taking it from the rich and redistributing it to the poor is WHY poor states get more money than they provide. Then you have the gall to blame Republicans for this happening.
bepatient...
Sound advice "patient"...you're obviously self sufficient and well contented. Another piece of sound advice there "patient", stay where the hell you are and don't bother the rest of us...9 out of the top 10 "welfare states" are southern states...got it boy!
As was already posted-it's YOUR left leaning policies that created the "welfare states" in the south.
So,after LEFT leaning politicians/policies created these "welfare states" you now have the balls to blame the GOP? WTF are you smoking?
Give me a break. You are Republican in the South because Lyndon Johnson signed the voting rights act. He famously predicted that the South would become Republican for our lifetimes anyway. So far, he has been proven 100% right.
jumping===I thought that this article was about Hurricane Protection. What happened? Politics will not change Mother Nature.
Becoming conservative real patriotic Americans.......yeah I can live with that. Its much better than a liberal socialist.