By Jay Kernis
Rock Center
The toughest ticket to get on Broadway is for the Tony Award-winning Best Musical, “The Book of Mormon.” It may not be too much of a stretch to state that the totally tuneful and deeply profane religious satire is informing more people about Mormonism than anything else in popular culture today.
Created by “South Park’s” Trey Parker and Matt Stone, and “Avenue Q” composer/lyricist Robert Lopez, the story of American Mormon missionaries sent to northern Uganda sells out every performance. That means exactly 8,752 theatergoers see the Broadway show every week. And it’s just opened in Denver and another touring company hits Chicago this winter.
In the musical, missionary Elder Price sings a stirring song, “I Believe,” to reaffirm his faith after it is shaken during his experience trying to convert a Ugandan warlord.
How much of the song is true to Mormon beliefs?
We turned to Matthew Bowman, author of the new book, The Mormon People: The Making of An American Faith.
Matthew Bowman, Ph.D.
Bowman received his PhD in American religious history from Georgetown University and a master’s in American history from the University of Utah. The associate editor of Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Dr. Bowman teaches at Hampden-Sydney College.
1. Dr. Bowman, in the song “I Believe,” the character of Elder Price sings that he believes that “ancient Jews built boats and sailed to America.” Do faithful Mormons believe that’s what happened?
In a nutshell, yes. The Book of Mormon opens with a story very much like the story of Moses and the Exodus: a group of Jews flee captivity several hundred years before the birth of Jesus. Moses led some Jews from Egypt; in the Book of Mormon, God leads another group of Jews from Jerusalem right before the Babylonians destroyed it in 587 BC. Eventually they're brought to a great ocean where God commands them to build a ship, and they sail for a long time to what the Book of Mormon calls, "the promised land." It's never, of course, called "America," but Mormons today believe the American continent is where this group landed. Joseph Smith said that the people in the Book of Mormon were the only and direct ancestors of American Indians; the leadership of the church today has indicated that's probably overstated.
2. Price then sings that he believes that “God has a plan for all of us” and “that plan involves me getting my own planet.” Is one’s own planet a metaphor for what happens after life on Earth or are there planets out there awaiting Mormons?
That really depends on what Mormons you talk to. Joseph Smith's universe was a very crowded one. He believed that God and human beings are basically of the same species, and Mormons today speak of their relationship with God as that of a father and his children (and yes, there is a Heavenly Mother, a divine female, as well). God created this earth as a place for his children to, more or less, attend school: to learn math and science and poetry and morality and how to be nice to each other and eventually to graduate and one day attain a degree of divinity themselves. To many Mormons, this means more or less attaining perfect communion with God. To many others, particularly Mormons who tend to be literal-minded, it does mean continuing to create universes in the future.
3. There’s also a lyric about God living “on a planet called Kolob” and that “Jesus has his own planet as well.” That’s from the original Book of Mormon?
Neither are, in fact. The riff about Jesus getting his own planet is one point where Matt Parker and Trey Stone's particularly blunt reading of Mormon theology slips a bit too far. It's not enunciated anywhere in authoritative Mormon writings. And after all, Jesus already seems to have a planet that takes up most of his time. "Kolob" is not a planet. It's mentioned in "the Book of Abraham," a pretty esoteric work of scripture Joseph Smith produced late in his life that's packed with rather obscure cosmological references to various celestial bodies with names that sound Egyptian or Hebrew: "Kolob" is a star that's said to be near where God's throne is.
Frankly, most Mormons find all the astrological meanderings in the book of Abraham a bit confusing and strange; they're not very frequently talked about, sort of like the weird murder subplot in the second season of Friday Night Lights.
4. Elder Price also sings, ”And I believe that in 1978 God changed his mind about black people!!” What actually happened in 1978, and why?
In 1852, eight years after Joseph Smith's assassination, Brigham Young announced that Mormons of African descent would not be allowed ordination to the Mormon priesthood. Given that it has always been policy that every Mormon man be ordained to a priesthood office, the decision had dire implications (and indeed reversed previous policy; several African American men had been ordained to office while Joseph Smith was alive). Not only would African and African-American Mormons be denied the priesthood, but they were also denied access to the initiatory rituals done in Mormon temple worship, which is a bit like forbidding Muslims from going on a Hajj or Jewish boys from having a Bar Mitzvah.
Brigham Young, and many other Mormons for several generations, presented various theories for why these policies were required: some followed nineteenth century theories about bloodlines and said that Africans were the descendants of Cain. Others speculated that Africans were children of God who chose before earth life to be less righteous. Such beliefs were commonly held among Mormons until the middle third of the twentieth century, and they and the policy they explained remain a blot and point of shame for Mormonism to this day.
After World War II, increasing numbers of Mormons grew uncomfortable with the policy, and in 1978, after several months of prayer and fasting, the president of the Church, Spencer Kimball, announced that he felt God had directed the policy be reversed. Most Mormons greeted the decision with joy, but the theories explaining why the policy existed in the first place were not refuted, and thus still circulated in Mormonism for many years after.
In 2006 the then-president of the Church issued a stern rebuke for persistent racism among his flock and in February of 2012, the Church's Public Affairs department finally issued a forceful repudiation of these theories after a professor at BYU recapped them to a reporter for the Washington Post. Many Mormons, however, still await a statement directly from ecclesiastical leaders.
5. And one more: Elder Price sings that he believes that “the Garden of Eden was in Jackson County, Missouri.” Why Missouri?
You'd have to ask Joseph Smith. He made this announcement, rather abruptly and apparently surprising to his friends, while visiting a meadow there in 1838. To be specific, he stated that this particular valley was where Adam blessed his children before he died, which would, logically, not be where the Garden of Eden was. To many Mormons, the idea reaffirms a theme the Book of Mormon inaugurated: that the Americas are a sacred place, no less holy than the traditional Holy Land, and that the United States could host the sort of utopian society Joseph Smith wanted to build.
6. Were you raised in the Mormon faith? How did you develop such a deep interest in the LDS Church?
I was indeed raised in the Mormon faith, but have gained a renewed appreciation for it as I've pursued the academic study of religion. Mormonism gives scholars like me a fascinating look at religion-making from the ground floor; studying the founding and early history of Mormonism is like getting a front row seat when Paul and the apostles were spreading Christianity across Rome or when Muhammad was leading a band of Bedouins back to Mecca. That Mormonism has flourished so powerfully in the modern world is one indication that despite some scholars' predictions of secularization, religion is not going anywhere; that it has grown in America helps us understand the culture of the United States and the fantastic possibilities for religious creativity it's offered.
Leave a Comment:
I haven't watched the program but wanted to respond to the above article. First of all, I don't know who Matthew Bauman is....this is not a general authority who can answer questions of our religion. Secondly, there are several incorrect comments by Mr. Bauman but for simplicity I will state just a few, below:
1. "Joseph Smith said that the people in the Book of Mormon were the only and direct ancestors of American Indians; the leadership of the church today has indicated that's probably overstated." ---I don't know what "leadership of the church" he has been consulting with but it is established in our standard scriptures that the American Indians and other indigenous people of this continent ARE the Book of Mormon descendants.
2. "Frankly, most Mormons find all the astrological meanderings in the book of Abraham a bit confusing and strange; they're not very frequently talked about"---if Mr. Bauman were an active member he would have known that we study the Book of Abraham quite frequently and do not consider it "confusing and strange." It is one of the plainly written scriptures in our canon.
3. "After World War II, increasing numbers of Mormons grew uncomfortable with the policy, and in 1978, after several months of prayer and fasting, the president of the Church, Spencer Kimball, announced that he felt God had directed the policy be reversed."---A large fact has been omitted in Mr. Bauman's statement. It was the African peoples who were inquiring to receive the priesthood but revelation finally came in 1978 by Prophet Spencer W. Kimball that all blacks would be able to hold the priesthood. Another fact, it was not Brigham Young who decided to restrict the blacks from priesthood....these revelations come from God.
I suggest any serious reader who wants to know the truth of our religion to visit Mormon.org....unless, of course, you really don't want to know the truth....then keep reading articles like this.
Ia Orana Mauruuru!
I haven't watched the program but wanted to respond to the above article. First of all, I don't know who Matthew Bauman is....this is not a general authority who can answer questions of our religion. Secondly, there are several incorrect comments by Mr. Bauman but for simplicity I will state just a few, below:
1. "Joseph Smith said that the people in the Book of Mormon were the only and direct ancestors of American Indians; the leadership of the church today has indicated that's probably overstated." ---I don't know what "leadership of the church" he has been consulting with but it is established in our standard scriptures that the American Indians and other indigenous people of this continent ARE the Book of Mormon descendants.
2. "Frankly, most Mormons find all the astrological meanderings in the book of Abraham a bit confusing and strange; they're not very frequently talked about"---if Mr. Bauman were an active member he would have known that we study the Book of Abraham quite frequently and do not consider it "confusing and strange." It is one of the plainly written scriptures in our canon.
3. "After World War II, increasing numbers of Mormons grew uncomfortable with the policy, and in 1978, after several months of prayer and fasting, the president of the Church, Spencer Kimball, announced that he felt God had directed the policy be reversed."---A large fact has been omitted in Mr. Bauman's statement. It was the African peoples who were inquiring to receive the priesthood but revelation finally came in 1978 by Prophet Spencer W. Kimball that all blacks would be able to hold the priesthood. Another fact, it was not Brigham Young who decided to restrict the blacks from priesthood....these revelations come from God.
I suggest any serious reader who wants to know the truth of our religion to visit Mormon.org....unless, of course, you really don't want to know the truth....then keep reading articles like this.
Ia Orana Mauruuru!
just curious. so why WERE black people banned from the priesthood and the temple? and how do you know god had anything to do with it?
Oh, my...
TiareRua said "I don't know what "leadership of the church" he has been consulting with but it is established in our standard scriptures that the American Indians and other indigenous people of this continent ARE the Book of Mormon descendants."
You seem to be behind the times. The leadership of the church conceded that the indigenous people of this continent have ancestors in addition to Book of Mormon people.
DNA and the Book of Mormon, Mormon Newsroom, 16 February 2006
"Nothing in the Book of Mormon precludes migration into the Americas by peoples of Asiatic origin."
The leadership did concede the indigenous people have additional ancestors. I remember that. It was a shock to so many closed-minded Mormons. But, BY did receive revelation regarding blacks. That is the why, bradytom. And why that decision was repealed has the same reason. It was revelation received by our Prophet spurned on by members' concern. And to answer your question even more, we believe our Prophet receives revelation from God who helps us and leads us.
lovethemagician said "It was a shock to so many closed-minded Mormons."
How do open-minded Mormons deal with those migrations from Asia happening before Adam and Eve? How did those non-Book of Mormon ancestors survive Noah's flood? They kept right on living in America through all of it, while Adam and Eve's descendants were killed except those on the ark. How do Mormons deal with that?
I haven't watched the program but wanted to respond to the above article. First of all, I don't know who Matthew Bauman is....this is not a general authority who can answer questions of our religion. Secondly, there are several incorrect comments by Mr. Bauman but for simplicity I will state just a few, below:
1. "Joseph Smith said that the people in the Book of Mormon were the only and direct ancestors of American Indians; the leadership of the church today has indicated that's probably overstated." ---I don't know what "leadership of the church" he has been consulting with but it is established in our standard scriptures that the American Indians and other indigenous people of this continent ARE the Book of Mormon descendants.
2. "Frankly, most Mormons find all the astrological meanderings in the book of Abraham a bit confusing and strange; they're not very frequently talked about"---if Mr. Bauman were an active member he would have known that we study the Book of Abraham quite frequently and do not consider it "confusing and strange." It is one of the plainly written scriptures in our canon.
3. "After World War II, increasing numbers of Mormons grew uncomfortable with the policy, and in 1978, after several months of prayer and fasting, the president of the Church, Spencer Kimball, announced that he felt God had directed the policy be reversed."---A large fact has been omitted in Mr. Bauman's statement. It was the African peoples who were inquiring to receive the priesthood but revelation finally came in 1978 by Prophet Spencer W. Kimball that all blacks would be able to hold the priesthood. Another fact, it was not Brigham Young who decided to restrict the blacks from priesthood....these revelations come from God.
I suggest any serious reader who wants to know the truth of our religion to visit Mormon.org....unless, of course, you really don't want to know the truth....then keep reading articles like this.
Ia Orana Mauruuru!
from reading several of these posts, and having been a member myself, it is clear that most momons base their theological certainty off of special feelings. typically, this is one moment in particular, or a series of moments which only adds to such confidence in their church. The problem with basing truth off of ones feelings is simple: EVERYONE has feelings. the Buddhist monk has strong feelings that his flavor of God is correct, as does the Jesuit priest and the fundamentalist muslim. If the special feelings given to the mormon are indeed god's way of confirming that mormonism is the ONE true church, than obviously, the confirming feelings felt by the former three individuals are either misinterpreted, or self administered.
imagine how silly it would be for a cute, frumpy little utah county soccer mom (with bubble hair and all) to sit across from a Jesuit Preist, who has been living among Amazonian Natives for the last 10 years in the hopes to spread Christianity, and sincerely telling him, "I understand that you FEEL a certain way about your ideas of God and religion. But I also have FEELINGS about these things. and because of those FEELINGS, i KNOW that mormonism is christ's one and only true church. Which means yours isn't"
if action is any indicator of the strength of ones feelings, the Jesuit Priest's feelings obviously are far more impassioned than the "So you think you can dance" DVRing utah county soccer mom. but this doesn't matter, because she has a testimony. her feelings are undeniably coming from God, while the rest of the 7 billion inhabitants of the earth are only receiving partially valid feelings, or none at all.
This is about as ridiculous as my two children playing cops and robbers with imaginary guns, while proclaiming, "I shot you first!" "no, I got you first!" this battle of feelings vs. feelings is completely nauseating. But thank my lucky stars, mormonism, unlike many religions, is bold enough (well....used to be) to allow others to measure its truthfulness in several non-subjective, verifiable/falsifiable ways. in other words, joseph smith, brigham young, etc...wove significant ideas and teachings regarding history, archeology, anthropology, cosmology, biology, etc...into mormon theology. these are objective statements that can be investigated the way things ought to be researched, without the aid of some fuzzy goosebumps. so let's see how these teachings measure up in the 21st century:
Book of Abraham: Actual Egyptian scroll with associated facsimiles translated by smith containing the words of Abraham: got it completely wrong according to every non-lds Egyptologist. And no, I don't give a lot of credit to FAIR and FARMS for the same reason you wouldn't go to OJ Simpson's defense attorney's to get to the bottom of poor Lisa's untimely death.
The inception of mankind taking place in Jackson County Missouri less than 10 thousand years ago: obviously this is just plain silly, and the church is running from this. unless smith meant "jackson county sub-Saharan africa" of course
Israelites are the PRINCIPLE ancestors of Native Americans: Wrong again. the church even made a cute little change a few years ago in the intro to the most correct book on the planet. instead of principle, it now says AMONG. but even that is wrong. not one shred of evidence verifies an Indian/Israelite connection. Native Americans come from Asia. Plain and simple.
The list goes on and on: Literal belief in a global flood--wrong. the distribution of language variance occurring from one event (tower of babel)--wrong. pre-columbian horses, steel, chariots, windows, etc...existing in the americas--wrong. Africans are black because of an ancient curse--racist, stupid, and...you guessed it...WRONG.
The hubris of joseph smith never ceases to amaze me. It is fascinating to see how otherwise intelligent people manage to believe in the concoctions of his rather large head (from angels with drawn swords commanding him to marry several girls, including 14 year olds; to a mystical stone inside of a top hat producing the most important book on the planet).
I can tell you all with confidence that due to honest research, and by valuing such things as science, reason, logic, and common sense; I KNOW that mormonism is simply a nice little utah based religion that doesn't even put a dent in the world's population. Not the kingdom of god. Not the only correct way to live. Not true.
In the name of Don Carlos Smith, Amen..
Well..I suppose you are free to accept or deny Christ. You obviously deny. Your comments also smack of atheism. So, whatever for you.
bradytom,
You make a number of claims which are not necessarily so. You talk of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young "weaving" a number of things in different scientific fields or at least in different fields of study. Such claims they may have made are extremely limited. When marvelous Mayan ruins were spoken of as having been made, Joseph Smith pointed to those finds as vindicating claims made in the Book of Mormon of advanced civilizations in the America. Such is true. Regarding claims by Brigham Young, I have no idea of what you are referring to.
Your "Jackson County" rant is itself non-sensical. When Noah floated on his ark for hundreds of days, who is going to suppose he ended up where he started? The human race was begun afresh in his days, likely many thousands of miles away from where it originated.
My belief regarding the flood is that that is when "Pangea" divided into the continents we have today. So your "sub-Saharan" jibe is just that.
The extent of similar myths has been pointed out by many people. That they had the same basic origins is for me the best explanation. And the story of a flood is held by many cultures, with variant forms of the story among them.
Items mentioned in the Book of Mormon from steel to horses have indeed been found. But often the archaeological community has suppressed them.
In Charles C. Mann's books, "1491" and/or "1492" the use of a native American "barley" is shown to be accurate—something mentioned in the Book of Mormon that people like you have claimed "wasn't so" for decades (but, evidently, it was and is "so")!
Joseph Smith's claim that "staring into the heavens" (meaning, receiving visitations and revelations from God via angels, visions, etc) can trump all of your "reason". Even an agnostic, Nassim Nicholas Taleb, points out that a phrase used in medieval England equivalent to our "when pigs fly" was "when you see a black swan", was part of the "reasoning" of their day. Of course, he points out, on this technical single issue, they were wrong. The Dutch, in the 16th century did find there are "black swans" in Australia.
Truth is very, very often "stranger than fiction". That Joseph Smith used a stone to translate the Book of Mormon is no stranger than the "stones" those who inherit the earth will receive a white stone (Revelation 2:17) for their use.
The wisdom of the wise, it is written in the Bible shall perish. I am confident that your "wisdom" likewise will perish.
In the words of Disney Corp (Pocahontas - Colors of the Wind), I find this appropriate in view of your (and many others) like-minded opinions—
You think the only people who are people
Are the people who look and think like you
But if you walk the footsteps of a stranger
You'll learn things you never knew you never knew
Don Carlos Smith (the youngest brother to Joseph Smith Jr, the prophet of God) DID know these things were true. And, in his name, you have spoken contrary to what he would have said.
I realize how clever you suppose you are. But, you're not that clever.
instead of trying to respond to every rebuttal in your diatribe, let me just ask you one question...in an era when we are literally landing vehicles on other planets, simulating black holes under advanced, controlled conditions, and regrowing organs in a lab...you honestly believe that an angel with a drawn sword commanded joseph smith to take himself a few (roughly 30) extra wives??? don't skirt this question, please :)
oh and you calling me nonsensical, while in the same sentence mentioning noah floating on his ark was simply awesome. i thought you were joking at first...
this should be fun
Were you reporting on the Mormon church or just advertising for them? I you were reporting on them you should have brought out the fact that all though the Mormons believe they are "Christian," they do NOT believe what the Bible says about Jesus and who He is. The Mormons know this is an issue with those of us who say they are NOT Christians, yet they skirted around that problem with their beliefs.
Mormons believe Jesus is brothers with Lucifer, a fallen angel. The Bible says Jesus is the ONLY begotten Son of God, therefore, NO BROTHERS. If you look at all "religions" and see what they say about who Jesus is, they will all differ in that area. Only a true Christian believes Jesus is the one and only begotten Son of God and IS God with us.
Mormons also believe they too (the men) can become a god. A Christian does not. The definition of a Christian means; little Christ and means you are like Him and follow Him and His teachings and since the Mormons do not, they are NOT Christians.
Yeah, I agree it would have been nice to have this brought out more. It did briefly mention that their Jesus views were different tham mainstream and it did say the piece was a Mormon 101 explanation. Really, so much more could have been said..But less than an hour with commercial breaks it was probably tough
True, much more could have been said about the doctrine. But, sorry to burst your bubble Helen of Reno, Mormons are Christian no matter what you think is true in that teeny-tiny mind of yours.
And I am also laughing my head off because you are contradicting yourself. You obviously don't understand what 'begotten' means.
So very, very sad....
Mormons believe much of what "traditional Christians" do. But Orson Scott Card ("Enders Game" author) wrote a great geometric parable comparing what traditional Christians believe about what the Bible teaches, and shows how traditional Christians have accepted a neo-Platonic interpretation of the Bible (anything with a human body can't be perfect, therefore God does not have human form, among other similar teachings). Mormons accept much of what traditional Christians view as being merely symbollic in the Bible as being literal, and vice versa.
All Christians know Jesus and Judas Iscariot were "brothers" in the Church Jesus founded. And yet, Jesus said "Judas" was "a devil". Historically, some of one's worst enemies come from members of one's own family. Look at how many murders are done, statistically, by members of the same family.
Mormons also believe Jesus spiritually is also our brother (as was Satan). LDS scriptures mention the sorrow over Lucifer's turn to become an enemy to God—
25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,
26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.
27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 76:25 - 27)
This event is told symbollically and also literally (they can be both) in John's book of Revelations—
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(Revelation 12:7 - 9)
BTW, Mormons believe 'Michael' (whose name literally means, "like unto God") became 'Adam' when he was placed on the earth, the father of the human race.
Jesus, Mormons believe, is "the Only Begotten Son of God (in the flesh)". Meaning, he is the only person on earth whom God fathered his body. Jesus' mother, Mary, was mortal, but his Father was/is 'God the Father'.
Furthermore, Jesus points out that we are siblings. We have the same (spiritual) father and the same God. Here he is speaking to Mary Magdalene after his resurrection—
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (John 20:17)
Jesus was apparently saving the first post-resurrectional hug for his (& our) Heavenly Father, who for him was/is both the Father of his spirit, and of his body of flesh and bones.
Remember, when Jesus post-resurrectionally appeared in the upper room to his apostles and disciples, he said—
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
(Luke 24:39)
A spirit, by itself, apparently does have body parts, like hands and feet. By also, by itself, evidently a spirit cannot be touched or felt or handled, as Jesus invited his bodily disciples to do, to show them that he had been resurrected, his mortal body and eternal spirit had been eternally or permanently rejoined.
Which parent would have their children permanently stay as a child forever? Every parent looks forward to and works and helps their children to come to full maturity, as an adult.
Jesus said we are the children of God (literally). Have you never pondered this commandment (which we must suppose was not an invitation to try to accomplish something that is impossible to do)—
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
(Matthew 5:48)
If this is not an invitation to become like God, I don't know what would be!
And note, he did not say, "Become as good as you can be". He commanded it (and so we suppose he can and will help us to fulfill it) to "be perfect" as OUR Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Jesus showed us the way. And the promise is scripturally given that we can become like Jesus—
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
(Romans 8:16 - 17)
Do you understand that? "Heirs of God". And also "Joint-Heirs with Christ". These are not just empty euphemistic promises. These are REAL, ACTUAL, LITERAL promises!
Mormonism doesn't contradict the Bible. It clarifies and confirms what the Bible tells us is TRUE!
I guess it is not about really entering heaven’s gate anymore.
We have had thousands of yrs and hundreds of people who have
questioned interpretations.
With so many picking and choosing what writings and events
to use as the basis for making their point, how can we grasp the truth?
Let's face it most religious take off groups agree Christ walked this earth.
He said "documented" the old law is no more and then thru "documented" writers gave us the bible law.
Then we have a "documented" timeline of numerous people whether being charismatic, self appointed saints, humble manipulators or power hungry egotistic,s.
Just to name a few.
We follow like sheep and teach our children and those who are looking.
Likened to "Stockholm syndrome."
I am not claiming to be perfect by any means and I worry daily that I am not living up to all the expectations of God.
Call it as you see it folks, but in the end “I know you not” are not the words I wish for anybody.
I joined the lds church 10 years ago and left after just a few years. I found out what went on in their temples and wanted no part of it. I know members say the temple ceremonies are sacred. I say it's lying by omission. If it's important for everyone to know about mormonism, even the dead (just ask Anne Frank), then why have secret ceremonies? The temples have nothing to do with Jesus Christ. They are copied from free masonry. The handshakes and symbols on their garments are from masonry too. It's like buying a car without a test drive only to find out after you've bought it that the engine is extra.
Mormons lives are not centered around Christ. They are centered around the church, and the lds church is centered around money. The men at the top get paid, hold the purse strings and hide church finances from the members. The church janitors got fired. Ask Ann and Mitt how many chapels they've cleaned?
Thank you Rock Center for bringing some light to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (The Mormons).
For further clarity please go to the official sources yourself. (It is difficult to get good information about Fords at the Chevy dealership.)
Or read portions of The Book of Mormon, a companion book of scripture to The Holy Bible, and decide for yourself - or better yet ask God for yourself.
Sorry the links were removed from the above post. They are below.
mormon.org
lds.org
lds.org/scriptures/bofm?lang=eng
Really so if you are considering buying a Ford you will just go to the Ford dealer and believe whatever they tell you? You would not consult non-biased third parties like Consumer Reports? You wouldn't consider their what their competitors have to say about them?
God is a great third party to ask. Please do.
1 Nephi 13:12-15 claims that God's blessing was with Columbus and the Europeans and his wrath was against the Indians. Ether 13:2 and 2 Nephi 1:6-7 allege that if people don't serve the Christian God they will lose their rights to the "chosen land" in America.
The Doctrine of Discovery "was essentially a racist philosophy that gave white Christian Europeans the green light to go forth and claim the lands and resources of non-Christian peoples and kill or enslave them". The United Nations, the World Council of Churches and many Christian churches have denounced it.
Mormons are stuck with their Book of Mormon and this racist teaching against the American Indians.
Cult is show for culture. That's us! Not a Sunday religion. I consider the word to be a compliment.
Caffeine is not prohibited by the L.D.S. Church contrary to what was presented on your program. Members are just asked not to drink coffee and tea, period. Why? Read the following well-written article.
The Word of Wisdom in a caffeinated world
By Gregory Smith
FAIR
Published: Wednesday, Jun. 11, 2008
Editor's note: Ask people what they know about Mormons and the response often includes some mention of the church's "Word of Wisdom" teachings against the use of tobacco, alcohol, coffee and tea. Inside church culture, discussion thrives when the conversation turns to whether "this food" or "that drink" is on the Word of Wisdom hit list, especially if the item contains caffeine. The column below, from the Foundation for Apologetic Information & Research, is in response to a reader's question about chocolate, which contains caffeine, and the Word of Wisdom.
Many members have wondered why caffeine is not explicitly forbidden by the current interpretation of the Word of Wisdom since it is a potentially harmful substance found in coffee and tea, two substances that are forbidden.
We sometimes encounter difficulty with the Word of Wisdom (or other commandments) because we attempt to give reasons for them. As Elder Dallin H. Oaks said of another matter:
"I decided a long time ago that I had faith in the command and I had no faith in the reasons that had been suggested for it ... Let's (not) make the mistake that's been made in the past, here and in other areas, trying to put reasons to revelation. The reasons turn out to be man-made to a great extent. The revelations are what we sustain as the will of the Lord and that's where safety lies." (Dallin H. Oaks, interview with Associated Press, in The Daily Herald, Provo, Utah, June 5, 1988.)
Well-meaning members and leaders have, from time to time, attempted to give reasons behind the commands in the Word of Wisdom -- and the caffeine in coffee and tea has been one such reason. But we must not lose sight of the fact that such explanations are man-made; they are nowhere in the revelations, and they have not been endorsed by the leaders of the church and sustained by the general church membership. An official statement from
the First Presidency reads:
"With reference to cola drinks, the church has never officially taken a position on this matter, but the leaders of the church have advised, and we do now specifically advise, against the use of any drink containing harmful habit-forming drugs under circumstances that would result in acquiring the habit. Any beverage that contains ingredients harmful to the body should be avoided." (Cited in Lester E. Bush, Jr., ed., "Mormon Medical Ethical Guidelines," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 12:3 [Fall 1979]: 103.)
Since it seems obvious in the 21st century that tobacco leads to cancer, we quite readily conclude that the Lord's prohibition against tobacco was intended to spare us this physical ill. This may well be true, but we then make the assumption that all the other commands in the Word of Wisdom are focused on other physical benefits. This may or may not be true. We simply do not know.
The Lord's people have often had dietary laws. The Law of Moses was full of things which one could, or couldn't, eat. Furthermore, food often had to be killed or prepared in a certain way in order to make it "ritually pure." A Jew might have concluded that this was to spare him from getting ill from poorly cooked pork. That might have been one benefit, but was this the only reason for the command? I suspect not.
Such laws change from time to time. We have no problem eating pork, while for a Jew of Jesus' day it would have been a great sin. We, by contrast, do not drink alcohol, though this was not an issue for most of the Jews of Jesus' time.
I suspect that this teaches us that the substances are of secondary importance. Of course avoiding alcohol, tobacco and drugs will make us more healthy and spare our lives. But these are not the only reasons for which the Word of Wisdom was given.
The last promise of D&C 89 often receives the least attention:
"And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them." (D&C 89:21)
What does this remind us of? The Passover: The children of Israel were spared the death that came upon the Egyptians if they put lamb's blood on the doors of their houses.
What does the lamb's blood symbolize? Does lamb's blood repel destroying angels like garlic to vampires? Is it "magic" blood somehow? Hardly. It symbolizes the sacrificial death of Christ.
Rather, keeping the Word of Wisdom, like the lamb's blood of the Passover, is a symbol of the covenant which we (like Moses and Israel) have made with God. The Word of Wisdom is a reminder to us of Christ, his Atonement and the covenants that bind us to Him. We keep the Word of Wisdom not so we don't get cancer, not so we don't kill someone while drinking and driving, and not so the doctor can smile when you get your cholesterol done, though those are all great blessings. The bottom line is we keep the Word of Wisdom because of the covenant -- it is part of how we become and remain part of God's kingdom on
Earth, and "always have His spirit to be with us." It's how we protect ourselves from the spiritual death that will overwhelm everyone, everywhere unless they cling to the Atonement of Christ (D&C 1:16).
The Word of Wisdom marks us off. Just as Israelite homes were marked off from wicked Egypt by lamb's blood, so our social, public and private lives are marked off from the world by our refusal to use substances that are common in our society. Those substances need not be physically harmful -- they are spiritually harmful because we have covenanted not to partake of them. Pig's meat is not harmful -- unless (like a Jew) you've covenanted not to eat
it. Then, even a bite is spiritual poison.
Our covenants remain our only protection and redemption out of the world. This is true of the Word of Wisdom specifically, and of all the
commandments. Leaders of the church are also probably reluctant to commit the same error that some Jewish leaders did -- becoming so focused on legalistic details, that the deeper, more serious purpose behind the law is lost. Thus, it is not surprising that there is no official church position on a variety of substances, but each member is encouraged to apply correct principles and "govern themselves."
Thus, aside from the substances which the church has officially forbidden -- coffee, tea, alcohol, tobacco, illegal drugs and abuse of prescription drugs -- our observation of the Word of Wisdom is between the Lord and each individual because they are about our relationship to him. Any health benefits are, in a way, happy bonuses.
YAY! Finally someone posts this article. There should be no question now, right? Could it be put any plainer? No. Will non-mormons still scoff? Of course.
Last nights show was wrong when they said Mormon women can't hold leadership positions in the church. Certain ones are held by men, other ones are only held by women. Only women serve in the Relief Society (Women's Organization), the Presidency for the Primary Organization (for children up to 11) and the Presidency for the Young Women Organization (for girls 12 to 18). These leadership positions are on a local basis and there are women who serve on a churchwide basis. Example, the General President of the Relief Society is over the largest women's organization in the world. On a local basis, the Relief Society President works hand in hand with the Bishop determining needs of the poor and administering service. All the men and women leaders meet and work together. I have held several of these leadership responsibilities. They require a lot of time, organization, sacrifice, service and prayer.
Yes, but each of the organizations still have to answer to the men. I was in the RS presidency, but we still had to have things okayed by the men or report to them or have them "Okay" who we want to serve with us. Sure, you might say the bishop gets inspirations for the callings so RS have to go through him...But if the women is truely the leader of her organization then why doesn't she get inspiration for that role and make deisions? because, the men are still in control...
Yep! The men are in control! And you should not be stating your opinion. It sounds like you are whining. Honestly, lady. You obviously don't know your place.
@ Ladybug50. God is a Man. He created us. You have to answer to him. So what's the big deal. You have to believe that is the way the Lord wants it and we wouldn't be hear without him so have more faith and get outside of yourself. And I am sure He cherishes our Heavenly Mother and I am sure she is with him and supports him and is very involved in this whole experienced.
Not a biggie, just pointing out they are not equal. If's that's ok with you Great. And I love how you tell me to get outside myself when you have no idea who I am or what I am about or my life experiences. Once again, the judgement....
This is an interesting conversation.
I am particularly drawn to the discussion of "knowledge" vs. "belief."
From my experience as a life-long Mormon, I perceive that most believe there is a hierarchy and Knowledge is superior to Belief. People are reticent to say "I believe the church is true" - that may show a degree of weakness - but would rather say "I know this church is true". I myself typically say the latter.
However, I think it's important to remember that Belief is not inferior to Knowledge - they are distinct. Knowledge does not particularly drive our more noble aspirations - belief does. I know there is a city called Houston in Texas. I've actually been there a number of times. That knowledge is nearly meaningless to my life though.
It is my belief in the truthfulness of my faith that drives me.
Faith is defined as strong belief. If someone wants to understand the power of Faith (or belief) read from the Book of Mormon, in the book of Ether, chapter 12. The prophet Moroni didn't write on the power of knowledge - he addressed the power of faith.
Knowledge comes as a reward of faith. Running fast is a reward of hard work. Earning money comes as a reward for a work ethic. Is the reward superior to the principal that provided the reward? I suspect there were people who worked just as hard as Bolt - but Bolt was faster based on pure talent. Does that make the people who worked just as hard inferior? No.
Is the hymn: "I believe in Christ" (penned by the apostle McConkie) inferior to the hymn: "I know that my redeemer lives"? No. Both are pure truth, invite the spirit and are equals. The former is not an "A" hymn and the latter is not a "C" hymn.
To restate, let us not underestimate faith, or subordinate it to knowledge.
The thing that I found odd, that was completely left out of the discussion, is the belief that the church was re-established in modern day America BECAUSE it was the task of Joseph Smith and his followers to prepare the way for the end times (hence the NAME of the church--i.e. the Church of Jesus Christ of LATTER DAY SAINTS).
As many members have 'testified' here, they do not just "believe" this --they know it. And, while no LDS member would claim to know the precise hour of the Second Coming, there are distinct prophecies that must come to past (according to their own Articles of Faith). This includes a literal gathering of the Ten Tribes of Israel, and Israel's permission to begin missionary work in their country.
These beliefs are the ones that have the potential to affect Romney's foreign policy decisions (as every human being makes decisions based on perceptions that are influenced by their belief systems and world views).
Google: Second Coming LDS church
Who is Mr. Bowman? This is not a representative of our Church. If you really want the truth, visit Mormon.org....and stop asking others about our Church. You wouldn't go to a Catholic to answer questions about Protestants...???
All of his statements are incorrect and false...I do not know if by design, or ignorance.
Mormon.org or LDS.org
'Mormon in America'--no such thing as bad exposure. . . A point that could have been made is that after having been identified on the program as an 'American church', there are now more members worldwide than in America. All those missionaries couldn't have all been carrying false doctrine. . .
Regarding: 'Mormon in America'--A point that could have been made, however, is that after having been identified on the program as an 'American church', it's interesting that there are now more members worldwide than in America. All those missionaries couldn't have all been carrying false doctrine. . .
Just wanted to say to the people on the cult wagon...... Jesus had a small group of followers. He was a missionary that preached and shared only the true gospel. He never changed His doctrine to satisfy the manmade religions of His day. He stressed, to all, that there was only one true path to eternal salvation. He loved the sinners, but never in any way did He condone their behaviors. He chastised them for their behaviors and taught them the principles of repentence. I would think that a lot of people, in His day and now, believe Jesus Christ started a cult. All I can say is, "Good for Him to love us that much".
Regarding 'Mormon In America' on Rock Center. Being an on again, off again Mormon but mostly 'on', I make these observations: 1)There is no such thing as 'bad' news exposure, so we should welcome this opportunity to put ourselves out there. 2) The program defines the LDS church as an 'American church'. That being said, it is interesting that there are now more members worldwide than in the US. 3) Finally, yeah, it's a cheap shot at our underwear. Whatever. I personally feel OK in mine. Nuff said. . .
Sorry for multiple posts saying the same thing. It's just the rookie in me. . . copw.
According to all the comments on cults, Jesus fits the criteria of one who started a cult. He began with a few followers. He taught only His gospel and not the popular doctrines of men. He chastised the sinners and taught them the principles of repentence. He did this because of His love for us all. Public opinion never did and never will change His gospel. He taught that there was only one truth and one light. May His church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, continue growing while sifting out the wheat from the tares. His plan is perfect and shall continue to be, forever.
Sorry for posting my opinion twice. I didn't think that the first message was sent. I, too, am new at this.
"Behold, I have fasted and prayed many days that I might know these things of myself."
Dale, thanks for sharing your thoughts along with this scripture. I wanted to add that if any of you here commenting and sharing are confused, try what the verse says! Fasting isn't a new concept to religion or mormons. Even Esther in the Old Testament fasted to gain courage and strength to approach the king in efforts to save her people. Fasting and prayer will help in seeking answers to anything we truly have a desire to learn or understand.
Regardless if you want to know or not, I would hope you seek your answers straight from the source and not from a broadcast on Rock Center. The media will always spin their story to get more viewers and ratings regardless.
Overall I was okay with how they presented the mormon faith. I may disagree with certain aspects already mentioned here, but it doesn't shake my faith.
If you really want to know how I came to understand and find my own testimony, visit my profile on mormon.org under or search under Eva Flake. I am not shy about sharing and if you have any questions, feel free to ask. If I took anything away from the broadcast, it was that not enough mormons are sharing their beliefs openly enough or don't realize people are curious.
This report on The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons) was not all accurate. NBC obviously doesn't know and still doesn't know anything about our religion. And I feel this was a big waste of time to go thru all the work to only talk with members of our religion who don't believe any more. Obviously those people aren't going to give you any of the correct info. None of the members of this church are PERFECT individuals and anyone who loses there testimony over a "person" saying something to them never had a testimony in the first place. All of the interviews done by ex-members was incorrect.
Our religion has never treated a "WOMEN" as a lesser person EVER! We have different leadership rolls in our church and there is a purpose in everything when it comes to GOD. A man can't do everything neither can a woman, so we share the responsibility and both get to partake in the PRIESTHOOD. The women who was interviewed doesn't need to feel that way. The women participate in the priesthood everyday and the PRIESTHOOD couldn't be complete with out the WOMEN of our Church.
Some of the info was correct, but I was very disappointed in the report last night. If any of you have any questions about our faith you are free to ask me. I am a faithful member of my Church and try to live it daily in my life. I just wanted to set the record straight.
Right on, Marci! This was one of the things that bothered me about the program. They specifically stated that women in the church are not equal to men. This is just dead wrong and a perversion of correct doctrine. I wish they had talked to an LDS woman who has the understanding that she is just as precious in the eyes of the Lord as is any man. Heavenly Father loves and equally values both his sons and his daughters. Our roles are different. I have no issue with the fact that men hold the priesthood. We serve with them in those priesthood responsibilities and we are just as essential to the success of the work of the Lord. We work hand in hand to accomplish great things, not the least of which is our own salvation. We make essential contributions, including serving in leadership positions without which the church could not function. I think all would agree that when in comes to male and female in the church, one could not do without the other. They (the men) are answerable to the Lord for their discharge of those priesthood duties as am I answerable to him for my efforts in the church responsibilities I have accepted. Further, I am a woman, and therefore I have great influence over the people in my life, especially my family. I am a mother and no one can take my place or render the unique influence I have on my children. I know the value I have to them and I relish that role. I would not trade it. I would not trade it! I am a mother. I am able to love and assist and be in tune to my children in a way no one else can. That is priceless.