By Jay Kernis
Rock Center
The toughest ticket to get on Broadway is for the Tony Award-winning Best Musical, “The Book of Mormon.” It may not be too much of a stretch to state that the totally tuneful and deeply profane religious satire is informing more people about Mormonism than anything else in popular culture today.
Created by “South Park’s” Trey Parker and Matt Stone, and “Avenue Q” composer/lyricist Robert Lopez, the story of American Mormon missionaries sent to northern Uganda sells out every performance. That means exactly 8,752 theatergoers see the Broadway show every week. And it’s just opened in Denver and another touring company hits Chicago this winter.
In the musical, missionary Elder Price sings a stirring song, “I Believe,” to reaffirm his faith after it is shaken during his experience trying to convert a Ugandan warlord.
How much of the song is true to Mormon beliefs?
We turned to Matthew Bowman, author of the new book, The Mormon People: The Making of An American Faith.
Matthew Bowman, Ph.D.
Bowman received his PhD in American religious history from Georgetown University and a master’s in American history from the University of Utah. The associate editor of Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Dr. Bowman teaches at Hampden-Sydney College.
1. Dr. Bowman, in the song “I Believe,” the character of Elder Price sings that he believes that “ancient Jews built boats and sailed to America.” Do faithful Mormons believe that’s what happened?
In a nutshell, yes. The Book of Mormon opens with a story very much like the story of Moses and the Exodus: a group of Jews flee captivity several hundred years before the birth of Jesus. Moses led some Jews from Egypt; in the Book of Mormon, God leads another group of Jews from Jerusalem right before the Babylonians destroyed it in 587 BC. Eventually they're brought to a great ocean where God commands them to build a ship, and they sail for a long time to what the Book of Mormon calls, "the promised land." It's never, of course, called "America," but Mormons today believe the American continent is where this group landed. Joseph Smith said that the people in the Book of Mormon were the only and direct ancestors of American Indians; the leadership of the church today has indicated that's probably overstated.
2. Price then sings that he believes that “God has a plan for all of us” and “that plan involves me getting my own planet.” Is one’s own planet a metaphor for what happens after life on Earth or are there planets out there awaiting Mormons?
That really depends on what Mormons you talk to. Joseph Smith's universe was a very crowded one. He believed that God and human beings are basically of the same species, and Mormons today speak of their relationship with God as that of a father and his children (and yes, there is a Heavenly Mother, a divine female, as well). God created this earth as a place for his children to, more or less, attend school: to learn math and science and poetry and morality and how to be nice to each other and eventually to graduate and one day attain a degree of divinity themselves. To many Mormons, this means more or less attaining perfect communion with God. To many others, particularly Mormons who tend to be literal-minded, it does mean continuing to create universes in the future.
3. There’s also a lyric about God living “on a planet called Kolob” and that “Jesus has his own planet as well.” That’s from the original Book of Mormon?
Neither are, in fact. The riff about Jesus getting his own planet is one point where Matt Parker and Trey Stone's particularly blunt reading of Mormon theology slips a bit too far. It's not enunciated anywhere in authoritative Mormon writings. And after all, Jesus already seems to have a planet that takes up most of his time. "Kolob" is not a planet. It's mentioned in "the Book of Abraham," a pretty esoteric work of scripture Joseph Smith produced late in his life that's packed with rather obscure cosmological references to various celestial bodies with names that sound Egyptian or Hebrew: "Kolob" is a star that's said to be near where God's throne is.
Frankly, most Mormons find all the astrological meanderings in the book of Abraham a bit confusing and strange; they're not very frequently talked about, sort of like the weird murder subplot in the second season of Friday Night Lights.
4. Elder Price also sings, ”And I believe that in 1978 God changed his mind about black people!!” What actually happened in 1978, and why?
In 1852, eight years after Joseph Smith's assassination, Brigham Young announced that Mormons of African descent would not be allowed ordination to the Mormon priesthood. Given that it has always been policy that every Mormon man be ordained to a priesthood office, the decision had dire implications (and indeed reversed previous policy; several African American men had been ordained to office while Joseph Smith was alive). Not only would African and African-American Mormons be denied the priesthood, but they were also denied access to the initiatory rituals done in Mormon temple worship, which is a bit like forbidding Muslims from going on a Hajj or Jewish boys from having a Bar Mitzvah.
Brigham Young, and many other Mormons for several generations, presented various theories for why these policies were required: some followed nineteenth century theories about bloodlines and said that Africans were the descendants of Cain. Others speculated that Africans were children of God who chose before earth life to be less righteous. Such beliefs were commonly held among Mormons until the middle third of the twentieth century, and they and the policy they explained remain a blot and point of shame for Mormonism to this day.
After World War II, increasing numbers of Mormons grew uncomfortable with the policy, and in 1978, after several months of prayer and fasting, the president of the Church, Spencer Kimball, announced that he felt God had directed the policy be reversed. Most Mormons greeted the decision with joy, but the theories explaining why the policy existed in the first place were not refuted, and thus still circulated in Mormonism for many years after.
In 2006 the then-president of the Church issued a stern rebuke for persistent racism among his flock and in February of 2012, the Church's Public Affairs department finally issued a forceful repudiation of these theories after a professor at BYU recapped them to a reporter for the Washington Post. Many Mormons, however, still await a statement directly from ecclesiastical leaders.
5. And one more: Elder Price sings that he believes that “the Garden of Eden was in Jackson County, Missouri.” Why Missouri?
You'd have to ask Joseph Smith. He made this announcement, rather abruptly and apparently surprising to his friends, while visiting a meadow there in 1838. To be specific, he stated that this particular valley was where Adam blessed his children before he died, which would, logically, not be where the Garden of Eden was. To many Mormons, the idea reaffirms a theme the Book of Mormon inaugurated: that the Americas are a sacred place, no less holy than the traditional Holy Land, and that the United States could host the sort of utopian society Joseph Smith wanted to build.
6. Were you raised in the Mormon faith? How did you develop such a deep interest in the LDS Church?
I was indeed raised in the Mormon faith, but have gained a renewed appreciation for it as I've pursued the academic study of religion. Mormonism gives scholars like me a fascinating look at religion-making from the ground floor; studying the founding and early history of Mormonism is like getting a front row seat when Paul and the apostles were spreading Christianity across Rome or when Muhammad was leading a band of Bedouins back to Mecca. That Mormonism has flourished so powerfully in the modern world is one indication that despite some scholars' predictions of secularization, religion is not going anywhere; that it has grown in America helps us understand the culture of the United States and the fantastic possibilities for religious creativity it's offered.
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Great article. I grew up LDS, but all religions fascinate me because of how they have shaped humanity. Having just moved from NYC, I'm glad someone thought to ask a Mormon to clarify publicly some of the silliness that went into that broadway show.
This "Dr. Mathew Bowman" may have been "raised" LDS but he really doesn't sound like an active member of the church. In fact, based on the tone of his writing I would say he is pretty much the opposite of an active LDS person.
Though what he says here may be factually mostly correct there is context and additional information omitted.
Bottom line, if you really want to know more about the mormon faith ask a practicing mormon to tell you. Going to all these "ex-mormons" is idiotic. If you want to really learn what "mormons" or members of the church or Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believe then go to the source.
Seriously? I thought Dr. Bowman was very respectful and his information was pretty spot on. I didn't detect a "tone" of a "non-active" member of the church. Perhaps you are reading a little into that, Boan? Dr. Bowman is an academic and so his descriptions are a little bit more clinical than you, or I, might give. That doesn't diminish the relevance of his statements.
I'm LDS, born and raised, and I thought Dr. Bowman did a great job of describing some of the stranger ideas out there about Mormons.
Boan,
First off, that's a rather personal attack on someone's faith without any concrete evidence to go on aside from "tone." Personally, I can attest that your reading of his tone's not accurate. Matt was in my singles' ward for several years before he moved out of the area. He now lives in my parents' stake. I can assure you he is active. It may just be that his tone doesn't match the notion you feel an "active" LDS person should have.
One of the most moving things about our religion is the ability of personal interpretation within the general construct of a unifying belief system. Matt here is not only expressing what he believes, but what some other Mormons believe, and of course you are entitled to believe as you do. It just rubs me the wrong way that you are making a blanket statement about a person's standing and worthiness based off of a few paragraphs.
Boan, the fact that the Church links to this article gives Matt Bowman's responses a measure of validity. I have met him in person, heard him speak twice, read his recent book, and he does have a better-than-average handle on mormon beliefs, practices and history. You need to recognize that writing intended for a scholarly audience will sound different than what you read in your church manuals (aside from the fact that most manuals are written for an eighth grade level).
As a Mormon myself I can tell you...a Mormon does not "just believe"
If all I had to go on was what people had told me and what I learned in church I would probably be inactive today.
A person can watch from a distance and see that it is a good church and they teach good things but it would be difficult to build a life long, unshakable faith on just those things alone.
If you really want to know the truth....you should ask God. God does not lie and he will not lead you astray.
I happen to KNOW that it is the true church of Christ, I do not just believe.
I am not going to go into detail about how I know because it is personal and no ones business but my own but I know it without a shadow of a doubt.
Have you seen that new website beyeperfect.org
Mormonism is a non-speculative religion. That is, a transition from belief to knowledge is possible, and that's why there is power in this particular faith. Now, I realize, as Brigham Young did, that people without faith have no idea what is being discussed here; it all looks like a grand delusion; Santa Clause. I can't help that and I don't blame you for your disbelief.
Nevertheless, I am going to explain briefly; Stanley Kimball has recently written about Mormonism; the A-level, the B-level, and the C-level. The A-level of understanding can net a very good life; the fruits of Mormon culture and living a Christ centered life are abundant. This is a life based on "belief" and some glimpses of "knowledge". The B-level can be confusion for some people, because the Church, as an organizational structure (a scaffolding), generally teaches the A-level, and when you see bits of the C-level--things you never heard in Sunday school--some people pull back, and say, I have enough; I'm happy.
The C-level is Mormonism has power; that's when you know all the history (conflicts and all, and all the heavy doctrine), and you dive further into the scriptures and living with power. At the C-level, Mormonism is a a paradigm--a path to spiritual power. Its not a church thing; its an individual thing. The church leaders administer the earthly church; the meetings, the welfare program, the cultural events, the missionary effort that includes teaching of the A-level principals.
But this is the part that outsiders will not understand; individuals are free to go as far as they want; its not magic--you don't put on the magic ring. However, there is power granted to those who embark on the path to knowledge, which is not connected with high office in the church. The transition from belief to knowledge is available in Mormonism.
Its like this: did you see Usain Bolt run the 200 meter? Well, if you can "feel" this, seeing him run is like seeing the power of God. Not everyone on the team has that same kind of power. But there is one thing you can be sure; you won't find a man (or woman) with that power outside the world of track & field. Because he had to work at it--to reach that level of power. Same with all his team mates. They didn't come off the farm yesterday; they used all the best knowledge, and all the the very best training methods; and "you can't put in what God left out." In the end, Bold showed us his power; he felt it; to run that fast--well, for 19 seconds--its like being more than a man.
The same with Mormonism. If you've never run that fast, or nearly that fast, you have not idea what it feels like; I do, as it happens. And like the good brother who weighed in previously, I also know of the power that God grants to man.
On the Mormon team, there are many who workout everyday, and they benefit form the fresh air and the exercise; and they continually grow in capacity; everyday. But on the same team, we have the equivalent of some world class athletes, who have applied the principals of the religion--to pass from belief to knowledge, and from time to time, they get to experience what its like to be "more than a man." That's the secret and the promise of Mormonism.
For those who don't believe--in even the possibility of the my words--I don't blame you. But who would have though a man could run the 200 in 19 seconds; its impossible really; and its a miracle of sorts, not so different from having ones prayers actually answered, as I have had from time to time.
You are completely misrepresenting Stanley Kimball's ABC theory. First of all, he didn't write it recently - it was a lecture given to a small gathering attended by Daniel C. Peterson decades ago when Kimball was a professor at the University of Illinois. Secondly, it isn't even about faith versus knowledge. It's about an approach to Mormon history. Read it and stop spreading propaganda about belief verses knowledge. You should be ashamed to put people of so-called simple faith into a lesser catagory. IT"S NOT OUR DOCTRINE AND SPREADING THIS IDEA DOES GREAT DAMAGE TO OUR OUR YOUTH!
Not trying to be inflammatory - I have seen up close how damaging this idea is to young people who grow up in the Mormon faith. I believe this is the reason we are seeing such a huge exodus from the church by young Mormons.
The other thing I didnt like was ....the part where they sing that god changed his mind about black people.
Mormons do not believe that at all.
Joseph smith said himself that all men and women are equal in the site of God.
The LDS church allowed black members in the church from the very beginning even at a time when most churches did not allow Black members at all.
Look up other churches history and see if your church allowed blacks into their membership at that time, You might be surprised to see how progressive the LDS church really was.
Did Joseph say that before or after the part about sending them back to Africa?
One plank of Joseph Smith's short lived presidential run was to sell public lands to purchase the freedom of slaves, thus ending slavery. He also proposed a popular idea of having a homeland in Africa established by freed American slaves. Before you think it a horrid concept, or unique to Smith, perhaps you should Google "Liberia".
WEll, your right. The song was wrong. Evidently God changed his mind twice instead of just onceThey are equal, they are not equal, they are equal...
So, how do you explain the Priesthood ban, no temple etc for black people? And also the awful things the profit BY said about blacks and inter-racial dating?
The reason/s why Brigham Young, as a prophet of God, disallowed conferring the priesthood on blacks, and why Spencer W. Kimball, also as a prophet of God, reallowed them, is known only to them and God, ultimately.
The speculative reasons given in the interim may or may not have merit.
One of my best friends is a black Latter-Day Saint who is, ironically, from Uganda. Having him as a friend has helped me dispell in my own mind prejudices I previously had of blacks in general.
Like the saying goes, "it's complicated". I believe that the priesthood may have been withheld from blacks for about a century and a quarter perhaps because of how doing so may have A) been because of attitudes of others (non-members) towards blacks; B) attitudes of members towards blacks, C) or both of the previous. It may have been that MEN's attitudes towards blacks had to change rather than attitudes of GOD towards blacks changing. For example, preaching to people in the Southern US might have been adversely affected; or preaching to people in England, or elsewhere.
Different revelations come for different needs. In Moses' time, an impending flood was not coming, as it was in Noah's time. Hence, that revelation was given to Noah to proclaim to the people of his time.
So it was not that God changed his mind about blacks, but, gradually, white men's (and people of other non-black ethnicities) changed towards blacks.
These are merely possibilities. We won't find out for sure, likely, until the judgement day.
"The reason/s why Brigham Young, as a prophet of God, disallowed conferring the priesthood on blacks, and why Spencer W. Kimball, also as a prophet of God, reallowed them, is known only to them and God, ultimately."
I BELIEVE!
Why would Brother Brigham say this crazy thing?? Huh, if only there were other instances....
Like:
John Taylor, prophet of god
"And after the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham's wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation upon the earth as well as God;..." Journal of Discourses, Vol. 22, page 304"
Wilford Woodruff, prophet of god
"And if any man mingle his seed with the seed of Cain the only way he could get rid of it or have Salvation would be to come forward and have his head cut off and spill his blood upon the ground- it would also take the life of his children."
Joseph F. Smith, Prophet of god
"Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race.
Bruce R. McConkie, Prophet of god
"Negroes in this life are denied the Priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. (Abra. 1:20-27.) The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them... negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow there from, but this inequality is not of man's origin. It is the Lord's doing, is based on his eternal laws of justice, and grows out of the lack of Spiritual valiance of those concerned in their first estate.
Don't worry, the book of mormon says nothing about this...:
2 Nephi 5: 21
'And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.'
Alma 3: 6
'And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.'
2 Nephi 30: 6
"...their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and a delightsome people."
Also from Spencer W. Kimball who reverted the ban:
Spencer W. Kimball, prophet of god
"The day of the Lamanites in nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome... The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation...There was the doctor in a Utah city who for two years had had an Indian boy in his home who stated that he was some shades lighter than the younger brother just coming into the program from the reservation. These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness.
Sounds like these mouthpieces for god never change their opinions! :-P.
If you want censored mormon doctrine go ahead and go to their website. If you want the entire story uncensored, visit
@uncensored religion
And if you want a bunch of incoherent nonsense taken completely out of context with no thought beyond "does this sound bad" goto an anti-mormon site and copy and paste.
Mormons have diligently addressed this in the thread already. You are just trying to stir the pot with something you believe to be politically incorrect. The Black Mormons I've talked to about this say pretty much exactly what the Mormons above said - and they're perfectly fine with it. It seems the only reason you're posting anything about it is to try to stir up ire towards a peaceful people.
The song is absolutely accurate. Mormon's DO just believe. I grew up Mormon, never believed and was told to just believe countless times. I was told to continue to tell people it was true and I would eventually believe it. Forced to go on a 2-year mission, forced to do "volunteer" service. A Mormon just believes!
Really, because I grew up constantly being told "You can't live on borrowed light" or you must gain a testimony of your own, or "Study it out in your mind" Maybe you just weren't paying attention.
I'm sorry you were raised that way. Noone should just believe...you need to find out for yourself...I agree with Brian's parents...you have to gain your own testimony...we raised our children to ask questions and that "when" they were old enough they would serve a mission BUT the decision was theirs when the time came and we supported our son not serving and our daughter who did serve.
It sounds like you are being intentionally dishonest, troyboy1. Mormon youth are taught every week about the importance of praying and discovering for themselves if it is true or not. They are encouraged to read it for themselves, experience it for themselves, live it for themselves, and make their own decision about whether or not it is true.
True... Mormons are taught every week the importance of praying and discovering truth for themselves. They are also told in advance what that answer is and if that is not the answer received then they must be doing something wrong and to try again until getting the right answer.
"Forced" to volunteer??? How horrible. I bet you are so much better than everyone else now that you "allowed" to be completely "selfish"!!! Good for you! Pretty proud of that huh?
You must have been at least 19 and able to completely walk away. If you didn't, you must have been getting something out of it for yourself (pretty evident if you resent having to help others). Seems to me you must have been willing to go on a mission with the promise of financial/educational support. Yep, goes along with the selfish theory!
I've met Mormon missionaries and they were proselytizing. You might consider that helping others but not all of us do. I'm not a Mormon but was pushed hard to convert.
Mormon youth are encouraged to just believe!
Mormon youth are encouraged to gain their own testimony of the truthfulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This means that they have to learn eventually to stand on their own spiritual legs someday. They are encouraged to read the scriptures and pray about the truthfulness of Christ's church. Not surprisingly, this is the same message missionaries bring to the world. Test it. Try it. Pray about it. You don't have to rely on anybody else's word. You can know for yourself.
The absolute last thing I would ever want my two little kids ever to do would be to "just believe." My greatest desire for my children is that they will find out for themselves and live a life close to their Savior Jesus Christ. Just believing will never sustain a faithful life in this world.
No they are not.
I can't speak for everyone, and I'm sure people have different experiences. But, while growing up LDS, I was encouraged to ask hard questions, to pray for my own answers, and to gain my own testimony. I was never encouraged to just believe because other people did. Through this process I gained my own confirmation that this is the true church of God on the earth. Anyone who thinks we should "just believe" is not reading one of our most often quoted scriptures, Moroni chapter 10 verses 4 and 5:
"And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things."
As a former Mormon I would say that Mormons give occasional lip service to asking questions and finding their own truth. I never once remember someone showing up announcing they had received an answer. Yes, you can ask hard questions, but the answer will usually be go and pray about and keep praying until your doubt goes away. If you persist in unbelieving it is grounds for apostasy, so make sure you either shut up or tell them you believe.
I grew up in a different religion and joined the Morman Church eight years ago. What made me change was the family values the church has and the way they support each other in our day to day lives and never ask for anything in return. They do not pay any one for what they do. We all volunteer and enjoy helping others. I have never been happier in my life.
Morman? They don't pay anyone for cleaning their chapels. They just have their own members do it. That's not something to be proud of in church this rich.
Mormon youth are encouraged to listen to their parents and learn for themselves. Eventually they must learn for themselves and gain their own testimony. The only way to do that is to ask God who is the source of truth and light. Although I grew up being taught the principles of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, I had to learn and decide for myself, which I did at 16. I have never doubted since. I do not just believe. I know.
Yeah they are encouraged to ask God for themselves. But if they decide God told them the church is not true they will be forced to keep going anyway. And if they say they God hasn't told them one way or the other they will always be told to just keep trying because they must have not prayed enough or read the scriptures enough. Or people will assume they are masturbating or watching pornography and aren't worthy to get the spirit. It will always be their fault because it is impossible that the Church could not be true.
I'm not sure why you're making these assertions. Anyone in the LDS Church who approaches teaching and counseling children in the way you're recounting is neither following the teachings of Jesus Christ nor of church leaders. To say they are misguided would be an understatement.
The principle of agency is central to Heavenly Father's plan for His children, as is the principle of personal revelation. The promise that man can recur to God for answers and is entitled to receive them as taught in the Bible was the basis of Joseph Smith's initial prayer. I suppose it's conceivable that a member of the LDS Church could misunderstand or misinterpret these key doctrines, but they would clearly be well out of the mainstream in so doing.
The Lord's way is patience, tolerance, love, gentle persuasion, longsuffering, etc. Anyone advocating or exercising coercion, force or violating another's agency is going to find themselves at odds with Him.
see comment above
wrong box for my comment
As a member of this church I'm excited that we live in a country that we can share our ideals and beliefs with one another openly.
I have lived the gospel of Jesus Christ my whole life, but I have not been lead by blind faith. Sometimes as a child you lean on the wisdom of your parents, because hopefully they love you and want the best for you in life. But there comes a time when you must solidify your own knowledge of the truth and build your own relationship with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. And just like all good, meaningful relationships in this world, it takes time, work, and trust and must continue to be fostered over time. This is what I was taught as a youth.
As for having my own planet, I do not choose to live my life this way for such a reward, that does not really matter. I love my Savior, and I know that he died for me, lives today and knows me personally. When you feel his love for you, you want to love others in the same way. His love is the ulitmate reward and brings happiness in everyother facet in my life on earth.
Relationships are what matter, that I be with my family forever (my true treasure) and return to live with a loving Father in Heaven and Jesus Christ. I've had my share of trials, but the Savior is the one person who knows exactly what I am suffering because he has experienced it already, and so knows how to bless me and mold me into a better person, which is not always easy. But he will never take away our agency to choose for ourseves. I follow him and know his peace is priceless. This quote by C.S. Lewis sums it up, "I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else."
I love your post. Thank you.
Mormons definitely know how to take care of their members and have a strong work ethic. But as a Christian watching this segment, here's what concerns me:
An emphasis on works: ("Put your shoulder to the wheel...")
The mother of 5 saying "you can be forgiven" Christians just ARE forgiven...in the present tense.
Jesus Christ was all about the burden being laid on Him. It is finished! Your sins are paid for in full. Life is a FREE gift. To learn more, check out beyeperfect.org
True, but then why is the Bible so long if you just summed it up in that one liner? If there is nothing to "do" then what was Paul going on and on about in the Bible?
I get your point that we can't earn God's gift, but it sure seems like a good idea to please the gift giver.
In Mormon theology, faith without works is dead. What this means is that for Mormons faith is not an On and Off switch, but more like a dimmer knob. In Mormonism, a person who does not have works does not have faith, because works are an evidence of the presence of faith.
Matthew 7:21 "Not every one who saith unto me Lord, Lord, shall enter unto the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOETH the will of my Father which is in heaven."
Indianajonz, Good question!
Every word in the Bible was written for this purpose: "these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that *by believing* you may have life in his name." John 20:31
When you look at some of the encounters Jesus had with people, they were very brief. Jesus is always good at getting straight to the heart of the matter. Have you read about the Rich Young Ruler (Mark 10:17-31)? The young man thought he was doing a pretty good job of keeping the commandments, but Jesus had to show him that not even a respectable man like him, who desires to please God, could keep the law perfectly.
Without faith, it is impossible to please God. And without true faith in Christ alone, the burden is heavy and eternal lives are at stake.
beyeperfect.org
Erin,
I agree, James says “As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.” When someone’s faith is alive, good deeds will naturally follow out of love for God. Our faith and actions work together.
beyeperfect.org
What do you mean when you say, "Christians just ARE forgiven"? Do you believe that you do not have to ask TO BE Forgiven? As LDS, we believe that we need to ask to be forgiven of our sins when we commit them and also, we believe in praying for help with our shortcoming and to be blessed with a Christ like attitude that we may do the work that our Heavenly Father would have us do. I just say that, because maybe something was taken out of context and I thought this might help clear that up. Ultimately we do believe firmly in the Atonement and know that Jesus Christ was sent to redeem us for our sins and that he will make up for the part that we fall short, but it does not mean that we do not have to do anything. It is only after all that we can do, that Christ makes up the difference so that one day we will have the opportunity to be with Our Heavenly Father again.
Thank you! Once you recieve Jesus Christ as your personal savior and BELIEVE in your heart that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, you recieve the free gift of eternal life and you become a child of God. Also God never changes. And that includes his mind. There is only one race, the humane race. There are only two types of people. Saved and unsaved. God,s will is that ALL people come to Him for eternity. He loves all of mankind. Thats why He judged sin on the cross and made a way for us to come to Him. Thank You Lord Jesus for suffering for us simply because you love us.
Dear Bugjamm,
Repentance is an important part of my faith, but it's not like I have to make restitution for anything. I know that all my sins—past, present and future—have been completely forgiven in Christ.
Visit beyeperfect.org and click on 'forgiven.' They give a much more detailed explanation and will even answer your questions personally.
Sidenote:
Christians believe that 'we all fall short of the glory of God.' And since 'all our righteous acts are like filthy rags,' it is not about all we can do. There is nothing we can contribute to our salvation or forgiveness. It is the gift of God—not by works! (Ephesians 2:8-9) And the Holy Spirit actually does the work for us, creating faith in our hearts.
It pleases God when we worship Him in Spirit and in truth. The Bible warns that whoever 'loves and practices falsehood' will be outside the kingdom of heaven. And that is why Christians are often eager to reach out to their LDS friends and neighbors, despite any social discomfort. Our discomfort is for your comfort...eternally!
@Perfect in Christ - every time I hear someone attempt to refute the "good works" part of our doctrine with "the only way is through Christ!" forgot to read Revelation 20:12-13:
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
I agree that Jesus has forgiven all of our sins. We are imperfect and through Christ we will find our way to Heaven. However, the doctrine that you're testifying to reminds me of all those good Christians who justify why they drink and smoke heavily, but are somehow still pleasing the Father ("because Jesus forgives me!").
Dimetrius,
What you describe in the last paragraph is what we would call "cheap grace." It doesn't help our witness for Christ when Christians don't set a good example, does it?
Have you heard of the terms justification and sanctification? Justification means being declared "not guilty." Through faith in Jesus, all people are justified...apart from any works of our own. Sanctification is another matter. After faith, we grow and mature by the power of the Holy Spirit to lead more sanctified lives. The two are connected, as noted in the book of James.
You said, "through Christ we will find our way to Heaven." But, you must see that Jesus IS the way. (John 14:6, I am the way and the truth and the life) The Way has been revealed! The Way is the perfect life Jesus lived in our place. And His death on the cross was the perfect sacrifice that covered all sin, once and for all. (not after all we can do)
For more, go to: beyeperfect.org and click on 'objections-answered'
@Perfect in Christ 'BUt wilt thou know, o man, that faith without works is DEAD." James 2:20. If all of our sins are forgiven, past/present/future, then there is no need for repentance, there is no need for sanctification. There is no need for the Holy Spirit... because, according to you, we can live our lives however we want and we are forgiven. We don't have to live good lives, we don't have to try and be good people, we can sin and keep sinning and lead others to sin... it doesn't matter. HOWEVER. Why then would Christ teach about repentance and baptism? Why would he say that 'unless a man is born of water and the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God'? Those are ACTIONS. WE MUST ACT in this life. Look at JAMES:
22 But be ye adoers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a ahearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a bglass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect alaw of bliberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his atongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man’s religion isbvain.
27 Pure areligion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To bvisit the cfatherless and dwidows in their eaffliction, and to keep himself funspotted from gthe hworld.
PURE RELIGION IS ACTION... its more than just 'believing'. James continues...
17 Even so afaith, if it hath not bworks, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my afaith by my bworks.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: theadevils also bbelieve, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that afaith without bworks is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father ajustified by works, when he hadboffered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by aworkswas faith made bperfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abrahamabelieved God, and it was imputed unto him for brighteousness: and he was called the cFriend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by aworks a man is bjustified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not aRahab the harlot bjustified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the aspirit is bdead, so faith withoutcworks is dead also.
The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent. John 6:29
Our works are merely a reflection of our love for God...something we are able to do joyfully through the power of the Holy Spirit. None of our good works contribute to our salvation. Our salvation is complete in Christ.
Yes, you must be born again to be saved. Go and learn what this means. Christians and Mormons worship a different God. If you have the wrong Jesus, none of your good works will save you. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth. John 4:24
In Christian love,
Sara
If NBC really wanted to portray to the world what Mormons believe, they should have interviewed ACTIVE Mormons! I am a active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (known as a Mormon) and many of the views portrayed on this show were not correct with what we believe. If anyone out there wants to know what we really believe go to mormon.org or youtube and watch "mormon messages". The sources used in this show, besides a few, were not reliable to portray what we believe. If there are any people inquiring about our religion, I hope they wont base their knowledge off of this "Rock Center" Program. I know that this church is the same church restored in the latter days as when Jesus walked the earth. We have a living prophet and apostles who lead the church. I am just a normal 16 year old girl in high school and I KNOW the teachings of this church are true and nothing makes me happier than to live by its teachings. :)
What? Active members were not interviewed? What about the interracial family? Were they just pretending? WOW! She was even bearing her testimony..
Journalism is suppose to be balanced, really. I'm ok with LDS.org or mormon.org as long as they give info for Post mormon or recovery from mormon sites as well. Non members could read both-"pray" about what they read and make a decision for themselves. Right?
Fair and ACCURATE is best.
I agree that accuracy is important. You can't expect everyone to be exactly the same. But, they did only interview one active member. The rest were not, were they? And those that left said either they could not live the LDS standard or they were offended by someone. That's too bad. I don't let others dictate my emotions. Poor Ms. Huntsman.
Ladybug50,
The Jackson family they interviewed for the piece was interviewed on KSL News in Utah (where they live) right after the airing of the show. The mother said that she was disappointed that NBC chose to air the "deeper" thoughts of Jon Huntsman's inactive daughter, or of the ex-Mormon missionary in the BoM musical. She said NBC spent 3 days with their family, and did not air most of the deeper conversations the Jackson had with NBC.
As "Sister Jackson" put it, they spent half the time or more on the 2% "fringe" members & former members, instead of on the other 98% mainstream Mormons, conveying, to a great degree, a big distortion of LDS Church members, their beliefs, and their practices.
Love- wasn't the single mom an active member too? Why has everyone forgotten her?
Oh, so typical for the single LDS..
Oh and the man who is gay and in leadership AND the woman that talked about womens issues. At least 3 church reprsentatives...So, how was most the time with former members?
Um they spent a huge part of the show talking about how great the Mormon welfare program is and talking to all kinds of active members that were volunteering at the Bishop's storehouse or receiving help at the Bishop's storehouse. They also interviewed the church historian. They interviewed an active Mormon author who wrote a book about Mormon businessmen and also interviewed one of those businessmen who is still an active Mormon. They interviewed Joanna Brooks who is an active Mormon. There were way more active Mormons interviewed than ex-mormons.
Yes, I said all but a few interviewed were members. A lot of good points were brought up and represented the LDS church well, but all in all I wanted to let people know that many of the things said in this program were not what we believe, even though there were a few very good interviews with information that was correct. It just seemed frustrating to me that a lot of their information was incorrect, if they wanted to show the world what mormons are, why not interview mormons? it's like eating a popsicle and expecting to find out what ice cream tastes like. Doesn't make sense.
You are much too young, my dear, to have a clear objective perspective on your religion. Your mind is not fully developed and you are in the thros of a deceptive and manipulative organization that pass itself off as a religion. "The fish is ignorant of the sea that sustains it."
No you did not say all but a few interviewed were members. You said the exact opposite. "The sources used in this show, besides a few, were not reliable to portray what we believe." By your definition active members of the church are reliable sources of information. And you admitted that most of the people interviewed were active members. So what you should have written was, "The sources used in this show, with the exception of two ex-mormons and one historian, were reliable to portray what we believe."
I am curious to know what you thought was inaccurate. I didn't see many inaccuracies whether from the members or the non-members. I thought it was a little bit inaccurate for the church historian to say that we have no idea why blacks could not hold the priesthood until 1978. Many prophets gave very clear reasons why they couldn't but I will give the church historian a pass on that because I am sure that is what he really believes. Other than that I thought the information presented was fairly accurate.
I agree! The show was "MORMON in America" NOT "FORMER Mormon in America"!!!
I found that curious that they interviewed Ms. Hunstman. Why would they interview someone that fell away from the church. I thought it was sad that she took the words from her Bishop in such a way that she became inactive, instead of seeing him as a loving Bishop taking his stewardship sincerely to heart.
I think they should have done the whole show speaking to active members and expressing the point of view from the churchs' point of view. I Nothing negative and let people decide for themselves and investigate the church if they so wish.
@ dazed--If you are truly interested in a thorough background on the revelation on the priesthood and the preceding history, Edward Kimball (President Spencer W. Kimball's son) authored an extensive article that was published in BYU Studies in 2008 (Vol. 47, No. 2). He doesn't pull any punches. If you haven't already read it, I'm sure you will find it quite fascinating and informative.
I definitely agree that there are some members of the LDS faith who "just believe" but they are few and far between.
What kind of a person would spend 3+ hours at church every week, abstain from making purchases on the Sabbath, hold a church calling (responsibility that usually requires time and energy), abstain from tobacco and alcohol, spend 2 years of their prime away from their family and friends for the purpose of bringing people closer to Jesus Christ, abstain from sexual activity until married, and donate 1/10th of their income to their church if they did not believe?
Sure, the occasional member might do all these things because they are following blindly. But do we not see that in every religion?
I submit that the vast majority of the 14 million believers throughout the world do not "just believe" because they are told to. They believe because they have found peace and great joy in the things they do. They are obviously getting something out of it or they wouldn't bother to live such a difficult lifestyle.
They are getting something out of it. Their faith which is secondary to their lifestyles.
Designwick. I disagree with you that it is a difficult lifestyle. I find it very liberating! I'm glad I don't drink, smoke, or have sex outside of marriage. It is a personal choice for me and makes me happy to live as I do. I made a solume vow with God to live his law, I entered that vow with him freely and openly knowing the true joy that could be mine if I did.
I have to agree with Pepper--I don't find the lifestyle restrictive or difficult at all, and I was not raised LDS, I grew up a Presbyterian. I have to admit, when I first joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints at age 17, there was one thing I thought would be difficult. I never smoked nor did drugs, giving up drinking was a simple decision, but the idea of keeping the Sabbath day holy seemed like a huge sacrifice. Music was very important to me, and all the biggest rock bands of the day all did their shows at our local venue on Sundays.
That whole scene was a big part of my social life, and that seemed a big sacrifice. But I had already received personal revelation from God that the things I'd learned from the LDS missionaries were true. I made the decision then and there to never attend another Sunday rock concert, and it wasn't anywhere near as hard as I thought to maintain that resolve. On the contrary, the incredible blessings, peace and joy that have followed have overwhelmed my ability to receive them.
The challenges I do face relate to the gentle nudges I receive on a regular basis from God. When I act on those quiet promptings, I find myself becoming a better husband, father, friend, neighbor, son, brother, etc., and occasionally being in a position to bless the lives of others. When I ignore those "suggestions" ("yes, I'll get around to that...I just have to finish what I'm doing here"), I don't make much forward progress. That is the real struggle of someone attempting to follow Christ, no matter which religion one professes--to develop the humility and obedience to say "yes" to His requests. To follow Him, and to accomplish His objectives here on the earth, requires a consistent submission to His will and His guidance. And so one soldiers on....
I would really like to thank the whole team at Rock Center for the fair and balanced job that they did reporting on the LDS Church. As a convert to the LDS faith, I sincerely appreciated seeing the program and feel that it was accurate and well informed. I am very proud to be a memberof the LDS Church!
Actually there were parts that really should not have been shown (the discussion about & showing of temple garments). Those who left the church, that were interviewed, are of a minority.
If they wanted to be accurate & well informed, they would have mentioned Mormon.org or other similar sites.
And then to balanced, mention Exmormon.org or other similar sites.
It is really hard to tell how many have left the church since you can not simply walk away. I know many, many who no longer attend nor believe but are still considered members because they don't jump through the hoops needed to get their names off the records. Letter to SLC, meet with bishop (or at least a phone call), 30 day wait period etc. Often when folks are done, they are just done.
My ward has about a 40% attendance rate (the temple recommend rate even lower), yet everyone gets counted in the membership even if you have not attended in 10 years. Even my unbaptised children were being counted and contacted.
I don't understand the 'balanced' line of thought going on in these discussions. The program wasn't about presenting and argument about whether or not Mormons are good or bad, or whether the LDS church is true or not. It was a presentation on who and what Mormons are, NOT about recovering ex-mormons. Sorry you feel that way, Ladybug50, but wishing the program would present anti-mormon views only shows you do not like your own religion. Maybe you should join the ex-mormons and get on with your life.
LOL! Did you read the part about not being about to simply walk away? The church tends to not let you go...Also walking away cause huge family problems-did you notice how carefully Abby Huntsman choose her words?
But I do agree, it doen't have to be balanced. This was a TV show. This was not a missionary film for the church nor a delve into all the contoversies into church history. This was a TV show plain and simple. I was responding to the comments above about balanced. I think your right. It doesn't have to be balanced either way. It is a SHOW-but presenting 2 sides does make most shows more interesting.
Actually, if you write a letter to the Bishop of the ward to have your name removed from the records they are to go through with that action immediately. If it's not being done that way where you are it is a fault with that local leadership, not the Church.
The bishop has to contact you in some manner to make sure it is you. Otherwise, people could do it for others. Some bishops are more zealous than others during this attempt. Some lecture, pity, counsel etc. other are good about it and say ok. Even if you state in your letter you d not want to be contacted the bishops are instructed to.
They collectively go without eating and give that money to help the poor? they do this every month? what if everyone in america did this? With all the definitions on what is christian or not, you have to admit this is a pretty cool deal they got going.
Thank you! It is a pretty cool deal.
Hi all I am a mormon convert and was very disappointed that the rock center didn't mention the website lds.org so people could learn more if they like. I also think we should mention it is very hard to understand a religion fully from a 1 hour program. I do think that they tried to portray more about those that need to separate themselves from the religion as apposed to those who get satisfaction from it. After working for the media I can tell you that they sometimes dont do all their homework as well as we think. What proved that to me was when I was read a National Geographic article as well as a Time magazine article about something I was very knowledgeable about and found they wrote about it totally wrong. So after that I decided I cannot pass judgement on others thru the media and need to find out the real facts . I am however glad for this outlet and yes being a mormon means you live your religion and its not a part time thing .PS Brian i was offended that they showed the garments I understand the fascination but to me it was like seeing the pope in his undergarments very very degrading of something sacred. And we should not forget bishops are just people too and yes they are supposed to be the voice of god but sometimes the natural man gets in the way and i am sorry for all those who have had that experience. PSS By the way nice plug for the book of mormon play NBC . Next time please try to dig a little deeper to know what your talking about. also everyone is welcome in our churches but you have to decide to live the religion fully to go into the temple. not secret its sacred .
I agree! Showing the garments was wrong. I was saddened. AND I am always surprised why people think the garment is so fascinating and strange. I never hear anything about the sacred clothing/items Jews wear nor how the men do not cut their sideburns. Never. And I think that is more strange.
I like your comments, southern ut. They are spot on. I don't think they needed to portray those who have separated themselves from the church, really. It didn't serve any purpose to me. Many people have commented on this article that is presents both sides. Both sides of what? Doesn't make a bit of sense. They just want to see ex-mormons bash the church, that's all.
And it is true that those in leadership positions are not perfect! Who on earth is?!? Poor Ms. Huntsman should have stood up for herself. She let her Bishop offend her enough to quit the church. The church IS perfect, its leaders are not. Our stake president wanted all priesthood leaders and teachers to be shaven. I told him 'Make me!!!' I only follow one law, and that's God's law. Not the bishops, not the stake presidents. I think some mormons follow blindly. That's fine if that's what they want to do. I don't and I am fine with that too.
Honestly, it was just an hour show and less with commercials. It was not an advertisement for the church. It was a jounalism piece. Why would you expect them to encourage others to go to the LDS site? They aren't promoting mormonisn, just doing a piece on them. But, honestly, if people want more info after this all they have to do is enter mormon in a search and the LDS sites will pop up...
@ troyboy1 You will never learn anything in your life while your mind is clouded with anger and hate. All the church was to you is a piano lesson you could not tolerate. Settle your mind and re-evaluate the church. You might see what you missed the first time. I was so angry at my John Birch priesthood teacher telling me blacks were Cain's decendants I missed all the good stuff and quit. Clairity comes with calmness.
Sorry you quit. There seems to be an expectation for mormons and mormon leaders to absolutely perfect. As perfect as christ.
Many people leave the church because they were offended by what someone said or did. If anything, that is the silliest reason to quit anything.
Honestly, It bothered me that more then half of the people interviewed were not Mormon.
An Ex-Mormon is not a Mormon, so why are they being interviewed and asked questions when that time could have been dedicated to interviewing actual Mormons?
The part that bothered both my wife & I was them actually showing temple garments & going into a discussion about them.
Why did they not interview President Monson? Or the a member of the Presiding Bishopric, or Relief Society Presidency?
Obviously thy would be biased. I think they were tring to show a balanced approach. I find it very interesting that ex mormons think it was a "fluff" view of the church while members thing it was too harsh and not presented well. Maybe this is a sign that it was fairly balanced.
Ladybug50...biased????? I can't even begin to tell you how utterly misguided you are.
Of course. Do you really think these are the people who are going to bring up the controversies of the church? Do you think they are going to bring up any of the problems with the history? Of course not. The show was not intended to be a missionary lesson...it was a brief overview of info that is out there.You may not like what was picked,but there it is. Why would you expect it to be a missionary tool?
On the whole, since I was expecting the usual major-media ambush and a fair amount of elitist sneering (of the "Mormons are nice but dumb" variety), I was very positively surprised at the tenor of this piece. Sure, we can lament that disaffected Mormons got disproportionate time, and that some really good things weren't said or shown. But, really, it was pretty good. I was especially surprised at the segment with the gay ex-Mormon in the Broadway cast, at the end: I found it surprisingly affirmative and even somewhat moving. I wish him well.
By "wishing him well" (a God's speed) type of hope, I must suppose Daniel Peterson means the young man eventually "comes to himself", and repents. It is obvious he knows that his parents greatly disapprove of his life's choices, especially "joining the enemy" (those who mock and 'persecute' the saints, or members of the (LDS) Church and the Church itself). It is not only the 'R' rating his parents disapprove of; but the whole tenor of the production, and it's mocking message on Mormonism.
I am supposing that 'Daniel Peterson-4596197' may be the BYU Middle East specialist professor who writes frequent LDS contributions to the Deseret News. If so (or if not), I have great respect, at least otherwise, for the opinion of this scholar.
I would agree that the whole piece was not a (complete) ambush on our faith. However this supposedly 'balanced' piece (I've found the Solomon "splitting the baby" wisdom is not transferable or translatable to all other things very well), but the interview with Jon Huntsman's daughter was, regarding her and her understanding, I thought, quite insightful. She is an extremely beautiful woman. That she bristled and rebelled at her bishop's advice, shows she's fairly 'normal'. Most people bristle and rebel at attempted correction. And, I think she'll eventually find her bishop's advice was correct—though most all people are loathe and too prideful to accept correcting advice.
My opinion of the piece is a split between Daniel Peterson's opinion just given above and an "ambush", though closer to Peterson's viewpoint than the extreme negative "ambush".
WOW! In regards to Abby Huntsman, Judge much? Certainly this was the attitude she ran from. Very telling! Just don't know what to say in this space.Poor, poor prideful and loathesome Abby...Surely someday she will see the errors of her ways....
Or she might be, the happiest she has ever been- raise a great happy family and do great things with her life.
Oh, now that's not possible is it? She is just a loathesome rebel. YOu just can't wait for her to come crawling back. How Christ-like....
Church Leaders and Official Representatives of the LDS Church should have been interviewed for this program, not people who have chosen to leave the church.
If you would like to see the lives of active members of the LDS faith, please visit www.mormon.org and you can see countless stories of members from all around the world.
You can also go to www.lds.org to learn more about the church.
Please take the time to learn from accurate sources and discover for yourself what The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches.
news should never be one sided. I thought the piece was fairly balanced. There are things on both sides i though were not accurrate. For example, I have tried to get food for non members who house was burned own. They were willing to meet with the bishop etc. I was told that we could take up a food donation, but the store house food was for thithe paying members who need it. That was a few years ago, so maybe things have changed, but my first thought when I saw that piece was that the statements about the storehouse were false...
Ladybug50. The LDS church is not news. There are no two sides. You just do not make any sense. I think you are also making up your store house story. You are saying, in essence, that the church resources are for members only. You know that isn't true. I am beginning to think you are not a member and are only serving lies to poison the minds of those people who don't know about our religion. As a matter of fact, I think I've hit the nail on the head.
I use to think that only members were given food. I'm in my late fifties, and was called as a ward clerk 7 or 8 years back. I was one who co-signed the check with the bishop for payment of funds for LDS Church welfare from my ward. I was amazed to learn what large portion was paid out to non-members (and I reside in a highly heavy LDS area). But, both members and non-members pay 'Fast Offerings', though the bulk is paid by LDS Church members.
How much is given to non-LDS people may vary a fair bit according to the LDS bishop and his preconceived notions of who should receive help. An attempt is always made by bishops, as they are counseled to do, to not "pay out" more than they collect (in 'Fast Offerings' in a given ward's boundaries), though there are frequent enough exceptions to this. This concept, of course, goes along with "living within one's means", as members themselves are counseled by (LDS) Church leaders to do.
But, members in poorer neighborhoods often are subsidized somewhat by those in wealthier neighborhoods.
Bishops sometimes make mistakes or don't understand how the Church welfare program is supposed to work. Perhaps there were misunderstandings on both sides. All I know is that I've been to meeting after meeting after meeting where church leaders (the TOP church leaders) have begged the congregation-level church leaders (Bishops, etc.) to use church welfare resources more than we currently are, with both members and non-members alike.
The church historian was interviewed. He is a member of the seventy. The head of the church welfare program was interviewed as well. I am sure NBC would have been more than happy to interview President Monson so I can only assume for whatever reason he did not want to participate in the program.
I, too am a member of the LDS faith. I agree with most of what's been said here with regard to semi-accurate representation of the church. On one hand, I appreciate all the attention to what I hold dear. On the other, it's disturbing that NBC would blatantly and callously broadcast a photo of what we hold sacred. NBC certainly did enough research to understand our position on the temple garment and made an 'executive' decision to show it regardless.
For any who are still curious about it, the garment is sacred to members of the church because it is a constant reminder to us of personal commitments we have made in the way we live our lives. If you see a member of the church wearing this garment, it is because they are striving to live as close to the Savior as possible, emulating His life to the best of their ability.
The same evening this show was aired, ABC did an evening news story about the church. The interviewer was asked why he didn't show Mormon garments. The interviewer replied they didn't out of respect for Mormons. A big, huge, Bravo to that interviewer for respecting what we consider to be sacred! I have a lot of respect for that interviewer and his producers! Bravo again to ABC!
Seriously, Rock Center? If I wanted to understand your show and company, should I interview 1 current employee, and then several that got fired, another that quit, and then a few others that have strong disagreements with Management??? Then should I go and interview a Radio/TV/Cable "Expert" at a University that has studied your company? Would you really consider that representative of you and your station? What a joke! What a biased piece. Why didn't you interview any Mormon Scholars? Your piece mentioned 6 million Mormons in the USA, and you talked briefly to one family and one Mormon Bishop, and that's it? The rest of the piece is loaded with interviews with disgruntled ex-Mormons or those on the fringe that represent maybe 1% of the religion. (The Huntsman girl didn't even know enough to distinguish the tens of thousands of regular Mormon meeting houses from the very few sacred temples, in answer to the question posed.) I guess that's what sells and gets you ratings. But I hope people can see it for what it really is....
SWEET! I love this response.
Amen to Amitall2's response. You are dead right on!
The Huntsman girl had not gone to the temple, yet she was asked about it like she was an expert on the subject? Give me a break. Of course we only heard her side of the story with her Bishop. What if she was in his office and she confessed to serious sins in her current relationship? What if her Bishop counseled her to repent and counseled her to stop her current behavior in her current relationship? One would expect her to place blame on this Bishop if she wasn't willing to follow his counsel. This way she doesn't have to explain her wanting to leave the Church, the Bishop made me do it story is told. She knows the Bishop can never reveal what actually was said during that interview. Of course we only get one side of the story. I would say with condidence that there was alot more to this story with this gal. I'm sure the Huntsmen family knows the real truth but it would be hard for them to say our daughter had other important personal issues that she is not mentioning or talking about now.
You touch on Mormon doctrine in this article but it was noticeably missing from the program. Since an understanding of the doctrine and its differences with Christianity is what would most benefit your viewers, I'm sorry to say the program was a disappointment.
Sorry you are so misguided grace, but Mormons are Christian. Christians believe in Christ. Mormons believe in Christ and are, therefore, by the very definition, Christians.
"lovethemagician" is here, I find, over-reacting. Grace was not trying to say that Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) are not Christian. What I believe she meant to ask was what the doctrinal difference between "Mormons" and 'traditional Christians' (Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox), which is a very appropriate question.
Here is my summary of the perceived (generally by 'traditional Christians') to be the major doctrinal differences—
A) Mormons believe that, as the Bible says in many places, from Genesis to Revelations, that God has a corporeal body. God looks like a man, because man was (as Genesis puts it) "made in the image of God". 'Traditional Christian' churches teach, at least, that all of the anthropromorphical references in the Bible to God are meant to be taken symbolically, and not literally. Mormons hold that most of those references are, indeed, to be understood, as we believe they were intended, literally.
B) Mormons believe that three personages, 1) God the Father 2) Jesus Christ, who Mormons believe was/is 'Jehovah' of the Old Testament, and 3) the 'Spirit of God' or 'Holy Ghost' are separately distinct persons. God the Father and Jesus Christ are both resurrected beings whose bodies have both spirit and flesh and bones (though no blood, since neither are now mortal)—Jesus' admonition to Mary Magdalene to not touch him, "...for (he had) not (yet) ascended unto (his) Father and (our) Father, to (his) God and (our) God", was showing that he was reserving the first post-resurrectional "hug" to his Heavenly Father, who was, unlike the rest of us, ALSO the Father of his body.
The Holy Ghost is a person of only spirit. 'Spirit' is taught in LDS scripture to be made of matter, only a 'purer' or 'finer' form of matter than can be seen with eyes made of 'flesh'. The fact that the three members of the 'Godhead' (a term used in the New Testament) are, because the Son and the Holy Spirit are completely compliant with the will of God the Father, "One God". When Jesus, in his intercessory prayer said, "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." (John 17:21) was a request for his disciples to have perfect unity, not in body, but in mind, heart, and spirit, as the Father and Son (and Holy Ghost) all have.
C) Mormons believe as Jesus taught, that God is a god of the living, and not of the dead. That is, the canon is never closed. The Bible is accepted by Mormons as "the word of God" "as far as it is translated correctly" (or is complete and accurate). But I've been in online discussions with traditional Christians who have expressed the same idea, conceding that the Bible, as we have it now, is not completely correct or complete. But the original writings were correct. Mormons believe that the "Song of Solomon" is the one book in the Bible that is not considered holy writ (was not inspired of God).
Mormons believe "The Book of Mormon" is a book of scripture on par with the Bible. They also accept currently two other scriptural works, the book called "Doctrine & Covenants" which mostly has the revelations received by Joseph Smith between the late 1820's and 1844, the year Joseph Smith was shot and killed by a mob in Carthage, Illinois. And, the "Pearl of Great Price", a collection of several small scriptural works, including the first few chapters Joseph Smith "retranslated" of Genesis, called the book of "Moses", a translation by Joseph Smith of papyrii purchased by him consisting of some writings of the prophet Abraham, a retranslation of the 24th chapter of Matthew; the history written in 1838 of highlights of Joseph Smith's life, his First Vision (at age 14 of God the Father and Jesus Christ), and how he came to find and translate the gold plates that contained what we have now as "The Book of Mormon"; and a list of 13 "Articles of Faith" that list briefly some major tenets of LDS beliefs.
One of those articles of faith states—
We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God. (Pearl of Great Price | Articles of Faith 1:9)
We believe eventually, that among other ancient records God has had men keep, the following is a list of just some of the records that will yet "come forth" in the Lord's due time (and each and all will be considered, like our other scriptures, containing the 'word of God')—
1. The sealed portion of the Book of Mormon, which contains God's prophecies of all things that were to happen from the time of Adam down until the "end of the earth".
2. The "plates of brass" which would include most of the books now found in the Old Testament, and others from the time period preceding 600 B.C. which, compared with all that we now have in the Bible are of much greater quantity. Among these are writings of prophets named Zenos, Zenock, Ezias, and Neum, and writings of Joseph (the 2nd youngest son of Jacob/Israel), and probably many others. The Bible itself mentions in its pages the names of books and writings, most of which are probably not contained in the Bible we have today, but were apparently viewed anciently as scripture on par with the books extant (still in existence).
3. The record of the lost 10 tribes of Israel. The Book of Mormon tells that Jesus declared among the inhabitants of ancient America, after his resurrection, that he was going to (also) visit the lost 10 tribes. Other prophecies indicate that some day we will meet their descendants, and then also have their records, as they will have the sacred records we have.
We believe that God speaks to/through people of our time. Prophets, like Joseph Smith, are comparable to those men and women who wrote what we have in the Bible. God anciently spoke to his people through men and women to whom he revealed his will. We believe he does so again now.
Mormons concept of the after life are more detailed and expansive than is generally understood in traditional Christianity.
For example, the ancient apostle Paul speaks of three heavens— one comparable in glory to the sun, another to the moon, and another to the stars. Mormons believe those who attain to the Celestial Kingdom, a "degree of glory" comparatively comparable to the sun, will be those who have a "valiant testimony of Jesus", and have lived comparably. The highest degree in this Celestial Kingdom is reserved for those who have married, have been cleansed of all sin by God, and who will become like God, reaching a state of capability to do what God does now—NOT replacing or displacing him, but achieving the 'adult' level, if you will, or maturity of a god, being able to make planets, stars, universes, and populate them with people (and all other creatures and living organisms) like the earth was created by the "one" true and living God.
Our concept of premortal existence stands in contrast to a virtual void of such a concept among traditional Christians. We believe that before the world was created, as is taught in the Bible, there was a "war in heaven". God the Father presented his plan for us to become like him, coming to the earth to receive a body of flesh, bones and blood, and being redeemed by his 'Only Begotten' in the flesh, who would both conquer death, via resurrection, and would accomplish an "atonement" or an 'at-one-ment' whereby, we can be reconciled to God the Father (who cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance) by a Savior, who was God's firstborn among his spirits (Jehovah, who was or became Jesus Christ in the flesh). Lucifer, an angel in high authority, proposed an alternative plan, whereby all mankind would be forced by him to be good, and all would be saved. Since this plan would take away the agency (freedom) God the Father had or would give us on earth, it was rejected. One third of all the hosts of heaven followed Lucifer and supported his plan. By rebelling against God, Lucifer became Satan (adversary), the devil, as did the 1/3 of the host of heaven who followed him.
There are many other contrasts between Mormonism and 'traditional Christianity'. One other key one for me that comes to mind is the belief by Latter-Day Saints that priesthood authority was lost anciently with the death of the apostles. Hence, it had to be restored. This restoration was carried out by the resurrected John the Baptist appearing to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, and restoring the Aaronic or Levitical Priesthood he held to them, which they subsequently also transmitted or ordained others with this priesthood power.
Likewise, resurrected Peter, James and a 'translated' John (he has not died, but cannot be killed - and he will be 'Resurrected' ultimately in "the twinkle of an eye" - in terms of time, eventually) also shortly after the previous event (days or weeks after) ordained Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, and bestowed upon them the Melchizedek Priesthood that they held (and were ordained to by Christ when they lived on the earth with him) anciently.
This "priesthood power and authority" from God, we believe is essential to doing his work. We believe that God only authorizes those who both have kept his commandments (sufficiently) and are members of his "kingdom" (church) can receive the priesthood, and act in the offices of that priesthood, in positions like apostles, bishops, high priests, elders, priests, teachers, and deacons.
Sorry, but Mormons are NOT Christians . . . no matter how fervently you would like to believe it.
DNA testings does not show that Central or South American descendants have any Jewish DNA that would support the Book of Mormon's history that the Jews sailed to the American continent, which was their "promised land" from God. This in my opinion makes the Book of Mormon a fabrication.
Or, you could accept the scientific explanations of how fixation can occur in genetic drift.
"In population genetics, fixation is the change in a gene pool from a situation where there exist at least two variants of a particular gene (allele) to a situation where only one of the alleles remains. The term can refer to a gene in general or particular nucleotide position in the DNA chain (locus)."
(population_genetics)
"It is even possible that in any one generation no marbles of a particular color are chosen, meaning they have no offspring. In this example, if no red marbles are selected the jar representing the new generation contains only blue offspring. If this happens, the red allele has been lost permanently in the population, while the remaining blue allele has become fixed: all future generations are entirely blue. IN SMALL POPULATIONS, FIXATION CAN OCCUR IN JUST A FEW GENERATIONS." [Caps addded].
References for quotations in #24.1 (lost when posted)
"In population..."
Wikipedia, search: "Fixation (population genetics)"
"It is even possible..."
Wikipedia, search: "Genetic Drift"
Have you read it?
I think it's even more confusing that that because Lehi and his family were of the tribe of Manasseh and not Judah so they wouldn't share Jewish DNA anyway.
Pat from Calif. That is EXACTLY WHY mormons don't believe the Book of Mormon history did NOT OCCUR in Central and South America. And the DNA proof you say is not there is actually in Haplogroup X. Human mitochondrial DNA haplotype shared by Native Americans in the Great Lakes area and Jews specifically in the Jerusalem region. Get your facts right before you start making stuff up or repeating lies and spouting them off as if they were true.
Our understanding of DNA, and what it implies, though being much greater than it use to be, is still, very much in its infancy, so to speak. Mitrochondrial DNA research you refer to, neithers disproves that American Indians were or were not descendants of tribes of Israel. They do imply possibly that others may have inter-married with the original immigrants to the America who the Book of Mormon identifies as being of the house of Israel.
However, it is interesting that the hapolgroup of those who came to the Americas was considered to be relatively small. This explains in large part why native American indians were so susceptible to diseases from the rest of the world (European, African, Asian). Their blood group types are far more limited than groups in the rest of the world.
This would be one point which I believe would tend to support Book of Mormon claims. The DNA stuff has a long way, I believe, to go before being sorted out.
No, I do not "just believe." Because I'm what my convert wife calls "home grown," I checked out a lot of other religions and philosophies when a came of age to make my own decisions. My parents probably did some nail biting then but they understood and honored the fundamental LDS belief that each has to find out for themself. A common saying among us is that no one can live on borrowed light. This reveals a hidden strength of our church: we are the opposite of sheeple; we're a communion of people who each has found this to be true for our selves.
As a missionary, I followed our teaching pattern: share what we believe and then invite the listener to ask God whether it's true. Whatever *He* tells you, through the Holy Ghost, is your answer.
From Alma 5:45-46 in The Book of Mormon:
45 And this is not all. Do ye not suppose that I know these things myself? Behold, I testify unto you that I do know that these things whereof I have spoken are true. And how do ye suppose that I know of their surety? 46 Behold, I say unto you they are made known unto me by the Holy Spirit of God. Behold, I have fasted and prayed many days that I might know these things of myself. And now I do know of myself that they are true; for the Lord God hath made them manifest unto me by his Holy Spirit; and this is the spirit of revelation which is in me.
. . . fundamental LDS belief - would that be the FLDS church and the leader, Warren Jeffs? I'm sure you will say that the LDS church no longer believes in polygamy and no longer affiliated. However, that is the one issue that separates the LDS from the FLDS. The FLDS would say that THEY ARE the One True Church on the face of the earth because they are maintaining true doctrine of Joseph Smith.