By Anna Schecter
Rock Center
Famous Scientologists like Tom Cruise and John Travolta have touted the value of Narconon, a drug rehabilitation program based on the teachings of Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard.
"We are the authorities on getting people off drugs," Cruise said in a video about Scientology released online.
John Travolta hosted a fundraiser for Narconon's Hawaii location in 2007.
But the parents of one young person who died while in treatment by Narconon’s flagship facility have called Narconon “inhumane,” and others whose children died on the premises of Narconon caution anyone from sending their children there.
Narconon's method of rehabilitation is unorthodox. Patients are called "students" and they study a series of eight books based on the writings of Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard.
The books resemble grade school workbooks and the students practice exercises that Narconon says helps them lead drug-free lives. The program costs $30,000 per patient and the treatment usually takes three to six months to complete.
Narconon's unconventional methods include spending up to five hours a day in a sauna for 30 straight days and taking up to 5,000 milligrams of the vitamin Niacin daily. It is similar to Scientology's regimen called a "purification run-down," designed to free the body of toxins in order to achieve spiritual gains.
Narconon is a "non-medical treatment facility,” meaning it does not administer pharmaceutical drugs to aid in the withdrawal process or the healing of addiction. Hubbard shunned the pharmaceutical, psychiatric and psychotherapy industries. He believed any drug is essentially a poison and even medicines create a barrier to spiritual well-being.
The detox is part of a larger system of life skills training that many Narconon graduates say has helped them lead drug-free lives.
In a letter to NBC News, former Narconon student and later employee, Amber Wold, said, “What I like about the Narconon program for myself (sic) was that although it was really hard, it helped me take responsibility for my life and myself."
Narconon says it runs 62 treatment centers around the world, including 19 in the United States, and says it has helped thousands of people get off and stay off of drugs.
But Narconon facilities have been running into trouble. Four "students" at Narconon Arrowhead in Oklahoma have died in three-and-a-half years.
Statement from Narconon Arrowhead to Rock Center
Statement from Narconon International to Rock Center
Statement from the Church of Scientology to Rock Center
Kaysie Werninck, 27, left her Florida home to check into Narconon Arrowhead in 2009.
Mother calls Scientology-linked Narconon 'inhumane'
Her mother, Connie Werninck, said she had initially been drawn by the 75 percent success rate advertised online. She said she also liked the idea of Narconon's unconventional approach.
Courtesy of Werninck Family
Kaysie Werninck
"I’m a health conscious person myself. The sauna program was attractive to me," Connie Werninck said.
But just a few weeks after her 28th birthday, Kaysie succumbed to a respiratory infection in a Tulsa hospital. Werninck said Narconon staff did not give Kaysie the right medication.
"She kept getting worse over the course of one week," she said.
Werninck said she arranged for a helicopter to take Kaysie to a Tulsa hospital 100 miles away. She said Kaysie's infection had taken over her body and she died within an hour of arriving at the hospital.
"It is inhumane that a person that sick, you're paying them thousands of dollars, and they let her die,” she said.
Werninck said she is telling her story now so that no one has to go through what she did.
"I want to get the word out so no one sends their child there," she said.
Werninck and her husband, Keith, sued Narconon. The organization settled for an undisclosed amount without admitting wrongdoing.
"I didn’t want their money, I wanted my girl back," Werninck said.
Narconon Arrowhead CEO Gary Smith said he is frustrated that he cannot comment on this case because Kaysie's family would not provide a release from HIPAA, the medical privacy law, which restricts Narconon from discussing her case.
In October 2011, the first of three deaths within a nine-month period occurred at Narconon Arrowhead.
Gabriel Graves, a 32-year-old father of two young girls, was found dead in his bed at Narconon Arrowhead.
His mother, Shirley Anne Gilliam, said she felt misled by Narconon.
"I felt like they were leading me to believe he overdosed and I was devastated," she said.
Her son's autopsy report shows only trace amounts of morphine in his system and the cause of death remains a mystery.
Gilliam said her son told her Narconon Arrowhead was anything but drug free-- a place where drugs were used by some to barter for sex.
"He said that it was one of the easiest places he's ever been to get drugs if you want them. He said there were drugs offered for exchange of physical favors," she said.
A former client and a former employee told similar stories. Narconon Arrowhead has strongly denied the allegations.
Gilliam also said her son told her that he felt Narconon was trying to convert him to Scientology.
"He said that's their whole thing, trying to get us to be Scientologists. That's what they do," Gilliam said.
Gary Smith said the Church of Scientology has supported Narconon since its inception 40 years ago, but insists Narconon is a non-religious program that does not recruit for the church.
“All of teachings have been secularized,” Smith said.
In April, the regional government in Quebec, Canada shut down Narconon’s largest facility in North America, Narconon Trois Rivieres, because it failed to meet new health and safety laws.
Narconon and the Church of Scientology say they disagreed with the Quebec decision to allow only the medical model of detoxification and notes that Narconon facilities continue to operate elsewhere in Canada.
Marc Lacour, director of the regional health agency, said there was no medical supervision at the facility, and as such it “posed a risk” to patients.
Also in April, 21-year-old Hillary Holten died in her room at Narconon Arrowhead. Her family has retained Tulsa lawyer, Mike Atkinson, to investigate the facts surrounding Hillary's unexplained death.
Colin Henderson, a former student at Narconon Arrowhead, organized a protest near the facility after Hillary's death.
He said he left after two weeks because he was denied his blood pressure medication. He also said he felt the Narconon program was too restrictive.
"I came to Narconon to get off drugs, not to have Narconon attempt to rewire my brain in order to reform to their way of thought. I will never allow anyone to attempt to control my mind. I think for myself,” he said.
A lawyer for the Church of Scientology says Henderson is unreliable and prejudiced against Scientology.
As Henderson was starting to plan a second protest, another young woman died inside Narconon Arrowhead in July.
Stacy Murphy was 20 years old.
"We were so close. She was so full of life, so outgoing. She made people feel good about themselves," said her mother, Tonya White.
White said she had heard about two deaths and even asked about them when she took a tour of the facility with her daughter.
"They explained there were extenuating circumstances. I was so encouraged that they could help my daughter," White said.
Stacy’s father, Robert Murphy, said Stacy complained that there was no drug counseling and that the exercises she was encouraged to practice were strange.
“She says, ‘They got us doing this weirdest stuff, Daddy…we have to sit in front of another student and look to them and yell at them and curse at them and say awful things about them and they're not allowed to react in any aspect whatsoever,’” Murphy said.
Seven weeks into her stay, Stacy went home for a one day visit. Upon her return, Stacy used drugs she had smuggled back into the facility, according to Narconon clients interviewed by the local sheriff's department.
According to the sheriff's report, she was put in a withdrawal unit where she was left unsupervised for several hours and by the time a staff member looked in on her, she was dead.
"This shouldn’t have happened. They should have kept a closer eye on her. They should have called me the night before when they found out she had used drugs," said White.
“Sometimes I still can't believe it. I wake up and she's the first think of. I can't believe she’s gone," she said.
Narconon Arrowhead CEO Smith said he cannot comment on any of the recent deaths due to federal privacy laws. He said his staff was devastated by the loss of young lives and he said "our prayers are with the families" of the deceased.
Oklahoma law enforcement and health department authorities have launched investigations into the facility.
Smith said his organization is cooperating fully with all law enforcement, licensing and administrative authorities.
A Church of Scientology spokesperson said, "Narconon has an exceptional record of helping tens of thousands of individuals to lead drug and alcohol free lives. The Church of Scientology is committed to helping people free themselves from the ravages of drugs."
Narconon International president Clark Carr released a statement saying, "Narconon has served tens of thousands of people" and that "three out of four graduates are able to live stable drug-free lives." Carr also cited physicians and PhD's who support the Narconon method.
"Based on the fundamental well known principles of equilibrium chemistry...such therapy is a very reasonable approach to detoxification," said Dr. Vin LoPresti, a biologist who supports Narconon's methods.
LoPresti said the use of sauna therapy is "gentler" and has "fewer side-effects" than drug-based detoxification.
LoPresti said he has not been to any Narconon facilities and is not aware of the circumstances of the deaths at Narconon Arrowhead. He said he can only speak to the efficacy of Hubbard's methods.
Dr. David Root, a specialist in workplace medicine, has been working with Narconon for two decades.
"It is the best program out there and it works," he said. Root said he has not spent extensive time working in any Narconon facility but has visited Narconon several times.
"These people know what they are doing and are doing great work," he said.
Other experts disagree.
Susan Foster, director of policy research at the National Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse at Columbia University, says she has not seen any science that supports a "sweat it out" approach.
She is not a medical doctor, but says extensive research shows a combination of pharmaceutical drugs and behavioral therapy is the safest and most effective way to get people off of drugs.
Foster says the number of deaths at the Narconon Arrowhead facility is alarming.
"You're supposed to go there to recover, not to die," she said.
Statement from Narconon Arrowhead to Rock Center
Statement from Narconon International to Rock Center
Statement from the Church of Scientology to Rock Center
Katie Boyle, Sabrina Esposito, Elizabeth Brooks and Ed Demaria contributed to this report.
Editor's Note: Harry Smith's full report on Narconon aired Thursday, August 16 on NBC's Rock Center with Brian Williams.
More from Rock Center:
Breaking Away: What is Scientology?
Breaking Away: What happens when a Scientologist leaves?
Tom Cruise's former Scientology auditor speaks about Cruise/Kidman Divorce
Leave a Comment:
Lopresti and Root should be investigated by the proper authorities.
Root has been on Narconon's main source of medical backing for a long time. He wrote the forward for some versions of Hubbard's "Clear Body, Clear Mind" and it is likely he has a financial interest in Narconon's success.
LoPresti appears to have co-authored paper with Maria Cecchini, who is a Scientologist, extolling the benefits of the Narconon methodology. The paper was published in a "Medical Hypothesis" journal that doesn't actually require evidence.
There remains no documented evidence that Narconon's methods are effective.
which "proper authorities" would that be pray tell?...............
A few youtube videos aren't evidence. Where's the data on how many are still clean after being out of Narconon for six months, one year, two years, etc.
Finishing the program and doing a testimonial (which is required to "graduate") doesn't mean that someone has kicked the habit.
I think Donald Trump and Barak Obama must be Church of Scientology/Narcanon grads. If anyone says anything against them or their practices, they always claim the denouncer is messed up. You know, like Donald did to the beauty pagent contestants that saw the predertermined winners list. Or like Barak blames everything on Bush.
Narkonon lie about drugs and as part of the ElRonHubbard Xenu Scientology empire, they are a mess. Scientology is a cult based on the writings and profit-goals of a sci-fi writer, and it has been in trouble before for neglecting the medical needs of its inmates. They ruined the town of Clearwater, Florida, which they took over 30 years ago. When you see people on here backing Narkonon, you can bet they are a Scientology front.
It's odd that you could consider that "documented evidence"... It's psuedo-documented (I wouldn't really consider YouTube a place to get medical advice), but it's hardly evidence. Case studies are informative certainly, but they aren't scientific. Just going and saying "Oh this worked for me" doesn't mean anything beyond this might work. You don't actually know that it was what worked. Perhaps this group of people would have gotten better with time anyways, perhaps all they needed was time away from their situation, perhaps they'd already made the decision... In fact, you don't even know that it worked, perhaps they're secretly still using.... you just don't know. Hence the virtue of doing actual research according to the scientific method. You control what's happening to be able to rule out alternative explanations. Pharmaceutical drugs and behavioral therapy have been put to this test and passed.
Pharmaceutical-backed drug rehab just replaces one drug with another. Some for life. Who do you think sponsored this program?
Michael Jackson died under a doctors care and the doctor is in prison now. Maybe some of these folks should be locked up. Doesn't Scientology claim to cure homosexuality? What's up with Travolta?
Hey Befuddled, Obama does not blame everything on Bush. He RIGHTLY blames BOTH Bush and the OBSTRUCTIONIST republicans who BLOCKS the President EVERY chance they gets.......and despite them Obama stopped the GOP's destruction of the Economy.
Michael Jackson was given illegal drugs. Narconon is getting people off drugs. Logic much?
Unfortunately, there is no one with the power or endurance to take down this cult. The deaths make the news, but the other horrible things they do only reach the public when someone is able to escape their clutch.
Oh my.
I am not a Scientologist and many of their practices make me question whether they worship deity or the dollar. That said, I disagree with those calling for evidence that this program does or does not work. Rehab is an extremely difficult diet--and as with conventional diets, some methods will work well for some personality types, while other methods work better for others. It seems Narconon's non-pharmaceutical approach has definitely worked for some.
The thing that concerns me about this article is the fact that there are 62 Narconon centers worldwide, but all these deaths occured at only ONE. Clearly, the Church of Scientology needs to investigate what is going on (or being ignored) at that facility. At the same time, it is bad reporting to suggest this is a problem with the Narconon program as a whole when it is clearly centered on the Oklahoma location.
The only link there that purports to be a long-term analysis has no citations so is unverifiable. Do you have a link to these studies that were allegedly done by various states?
The link provided by Pat Brown was a direct link to Narconon's website. I'd like to see some independent studies that show the success of the "program." As this "program" is associated with Scientology, anyone who contemplates using this "program" should take a long look at its methodologies and do some research into its efficacy.
@
whatevs
How long have you been in Scientology and what OT Level are you?
If Scientology had ever produced a single genuine OT, you would not be reading this story now.
Pat, which is your stake in this? What level are you or how do you profit from this?
Pat and Whatevs:
if you are going to make claims as to the effectiveness of your rehab program, and use these claims to recruit individuals into your program, then the public has every reason to ask for proof. Proof in the medical and scientific community is research, preferable a randomized, controlled trial with an extended follow up. Once complete, this paper must be published in a peer reviewed journal to be considered as appropriate evidence that the rehab program works (or doesn't). Testimonials and internally generated statistics mean nothing.
I am continually amazed at what Scientology gets away with in this country and is still able to maintain its IRS designation as a church.
im a fan of going cold turkey
addiction is mostly a mental thing...when you tell yourself over and over again you want this you need this, you believe this.
when you start telling yourself the exact opposite, eventually you get to the point where you wake up one day and say "enough trying, time to start doing"...
and for most people, there's no looking back...because they were truly 100% ready to stop using.
for those who are not 100% ready and willing, but really think they SHOULD stop using, they will not be successful long term.
When one reads this thread, its easy to see who ignores facts and embraces dogma, rooted in a need to condemn/hate at all costs. The statement that pharmaceutical drugs and behavioral therapy works perfectly for drug rehab is in direct contradiction to the facts,..the author ignores that because the author of the comment has an agenda. Comment fields are great places for people who have nothing more than opinions and anger or hatred or blind fear of the unknown to cheat their employers by sitting at their computers and just spew ignorant hate on websites all day long. As for me, I care about facts and put more credence in 1st had experience then armchair quarterbacks. Go here to hear directly from a successful Narconon graduate you tube(dot)com / narcononarrowhead
Migia: So you take Stacy Murphy's first-hand experience seriously, I assume. I'm afraid she has failed to make a youtube video.
Going cold turkey for a habitual user of alcohol is not healthy and can be very dangerous. My ex abused alcohol for years (drank everyday all day for an estimated 10plus years). He decided to go cold turkey after getting a child endangering charge while driving with his son. This resulted into him going into violent seizures and being hospitalized for a couple of weeks. Only quit cold turkey if you are under the proper medical supervision.
Louanne-Miglia, did you just admit that you are here working for Scientology's Office of Special Affairs internet division, thus not cheating your employer? Also, when you changed the name on that account from "NIck Benton" to "Miglia" you kept the same avatar.
I have an idea, don't do drugs to start with. Saves you alot of trouble and money all around.
Wait did I give that out for free? Umm, let see at current health care and psychiatric rates that will be $103.95 ea please. Checks payable to cash.
It is time
The discussion about Scientology is sooo off-topic!
I am sorry but Hubbard,Cruise and Travolta are whack jobs. Good actors yes. But I doubt anything an actor endorses. Scientology is a brain washing scam but it's so cool for you though.
When members of ANY religion enter into conversation and during that conversation vehemently denied that all other forms of faith have any validity then you KNOW that particular "religion" is flawed. Intolerance of others is the one true attribute of ALL religions that are critically flawed. I have not witnessed many speakers on behalf of Scientology except for Tom Cruise, and I can confidently state that Tom Cruise is a very good actor, although as a man of Faith, he is seriously afflicted with some sort of mind control or programming. I watched an interview that he did with a morning show host on one of the major networks and when the host didn't flatly agree with his opinion Mr Cruise became so livid I thought he was going to either hit the host or walk off. The topic had to do with childhood disorders and the use of medications and all the host said was "wouldn't you agree that some have been helped with medications" and that was it, Cruise went into a tirade about how he has studied the topic and asked repeatedly in a hostile manner "have you sir, have studied this topic?" at least ten times. My point, that is characteristic behavior of someone desperately attempting to convey an agenda they have been programmed to further.
Most importantly, I am a recovering addict and have been for many years and have had my challenges along the way. I know from experience that actual withdrawal from a number of narcotics require a medically supervised detox. Sending someone to a sauna and hoping for the best is absolutely irresponsible and without question CRIMINAL. I have worked in a treatment center and watched the withdrawal for instance of addicts who's primary drug was heroin or Oxycodin/ Oxycontin with an additional affinity for valium or Clonipin and the addict will VERY OFTEN not mention the "other drug" because the Heroin is that persons "first love". Well withdrawal from Heroin is hell, without question, but withdrawal from the highly addictive "benzodiazapines" is physically much harder to withdraw from. The withdrawal process MUST be done on a gradual basis or the patient will go into seizures that many many times are fatal. Not having a Doctor or Nurse Practitioner on site 24 hours a day for ALL or The Withdrawal Scenarios is INCREDIBLY IRRESPONSIBLE and should be CRIMINAL. Withdrawal is no joke and thinking that "Positive Thinking will get you through it" is absolutely IDIOTIC. And again, Tom Cruise did an on-line advertisement stating "We have a Cure for Addictions at Narconon". That statement in and of itself is ridiculous, Addiction is an incurable disease that can be arrested and kept dormant; but I can tell you from experience that after 20 years of clean time an addiction can resurface stronger than it ever was, and getting that under control again is very difficult process and near impossible, but given the right help and circumstances it can and does happen and I am proof of that. And I can only speak for myself but I have no doubt that GOD was responsible for this process despite my disbelief. And that process was well worth going through One Day At A Time.
BTW, it doesn't require $30,000 to get clean, all that is required is an honest desire to change your life, and the people that can show you the way will gladly help you, that's how they stay clean. Its in every town and city, worldwide. Just look for it.
The Inspector General’s Office of the Department of Mental Health (Oklahoma) wants to hear from victims of Narconon Arrowhead.
They want firsthand accounts, in fact they need them. They will investigate any concerns you have and want to talk to you ASAP!
Local (405) 522-4058. Toll Free Number (877) 426-4058.
Please pass this along to other victims.
Narconon is a total lie and ripoff. They charge ridiculous fees for ridiculous "treatments" that are mainly aimed at getting you to join their "church" so they can get even MORE money out of you. They claim a high success rate but offer no evidence of it. Independent studies of their former "students" show a success rate of 2-3%, less than any other form of treatment and dramatically lower than the 75-90% they claim. When they are challenged for proof, they cite "medical confidentiality" just as the guy in this article did. Problem is, they are not a medical program, and they make this very clear at all times. You see, if they were a medical program they would have to have some evidence their program actually works, and support their crazy methods by some actual science. Since they are not medical, there is no medical confidentiality. They could release all their records any time they wanted to. They refuse to do so, because it would show publicly how low their success rate is and how nutty their "treatment" methods are. Sauna sessions and dangerously high doses of vitamins is not going to help a drug addict. Hubbard was a nutcase, and Narconon is just as stupid and made-up and useless as all the other $cientology stuff he made up to scam people out of their money. By the way, when Hubbard died his autopsy confirmed he was a drug addict himself, and had been for most of his life.
@Migia: Once again: Testimonials without E V I D E N C E mean nothing. That's "No" "Thing", your nonsense testimonials are worthless. I heard a testimonial from someone who had terrible tinnitus and took niacin and it went away; that doesn't mean that niacin cures tinnitus! You're insistent lie that anyone claimed that conventional EVIDENCE based drug rehab "is perfect" is just that: you insisting that your lie isn't a lie. What the world has a problem with is you people stopping any proof from being gathered whether your way works or doesn't because you obvioulsy have something to hide: like for instance that your way DOESN'T work, or it only works for ppl who convert to Scientology, or that Scientologists whove graduated Narconon are actually still using but in a controlled way.....there's a definite similarity between the chaotic-crazy-wide-eyed-agressiveness of a Scientologist and say, a person on Crystal Meth.....those two act very similarly. Allow people to prove that impression wrong with follow-up of a long term study on the efficacy of Narconon's sytem using researchers who are unbiased and allow the documented results to speak for themselves. If your system works and it can be proven to the world, don't you think millions more people could be helped? But no, you guys have too many lies, too much craziness, too much abuse of people AND drugs in your wheelhouse to let anyone from the outside in to objectively asses your cult-um, I mean-religious-rehab-uuhhh, places. (churches?) Of course you decry evidence, all liars do.
This morning you aired a story about Narconon, the Scientology based "drug rehab". I spent 7 months in their original Oklahoma rehab, the Chilloco New Life Center (it was on the grounds of the Chilloco Indian School).
I went through the entire program, including weeks in the "Purification Rundown" sauna program. This has nothing to do with drug rehabilitation, and is entirely a recruitment process for Scientology. The "technology" of L Ron Hubbard is pushed on residents of the program from the minute you arrive. This includes "tech" training, "MEST" work, and Dianetics. The town of Newkirk, Oklahoma was very opposed to having the Scientologists lease this land from the local native american tribes. Eventually, they closed that location, and moved to thier current location at Narconon Arrowhead.
The Inspector General’s Office of the Oklahoma Department of Mental Health wants to hear from victims of Narconon Arrowhead.
They want firsthand accounts, in fact they need them. They will investigate any concerns you have and want to talk to you ASAP!
Local (405) 522-4058. Toll Free Number (877) 426-4058
This morning you aired a story about Narconon, the Scientology based "drug rehab". I spent 7 months in their original Oklahoma rehab, the Chilloco New Life Center (it was on the grounds of the Chilloco Indian School).
I went through the entire program, including weeks in the "Purification Rundown" sauna program. This has nothing to do with drug rehabilitation, and is entirely a recruitment process for Scientology. The "technology" of L Ron Hubbard is pushed on residents of the program from the minute you arrive. This includes "tech" training, "MEST" work, and Dianetics. The town of Newkirk, Oklahoma was very opposed to having the Scientologists lease this land from the local native american tribes. Eventually, they closed that location, and moved to thier current location at Narconon Arrowhead.
It does seem very strange that two doctors have nothing but good things to say about these facilities, but haven't really spent any length of time at either of them to see if they even work!!
Nah, some big pharma is likely happy to see this program. The more drug addicts get hooked on their "legal" drugs the better for them. That is why Narconon is so important. No drugs but detox and skills. True freedom.
Kind of like all of your posts, Scientology plant.
Jenny Gambino and Pat Brown are the same person.
Wow! Scientology appears to really have goons responsible for making pro-scientology arguements. Pat Brown and Jenny Gambino signed up for newsvine today and Pat Brown is deleted now that the heat is on him. Jenny is probably next. Spooky.
The Inspector General’s Office of the Department of Mental Health (Oklahoma) wants to hear from victims of Narconon Arrowhead.
They want firsthand accounts, in fact they need them. They will investigate any concerns you have and want to talk to you ASAP!
Local (405) 522-4058. Toll Free Number (877) 426-4058.
Please pass this along to other victims.
The Inspector General’s Office of the Oklahoma Department of Mental Health wants to hear from victims of Narconon Arrowhead.
They want firsthand accounts, in fact they need them. They will investigate any concerns you have and want to talk to you ASAP!
Local (405) 522-4058. Toll Free Number (877) 426-4058
I am an athiest, an I try to respect other peoples religions, try too, but screw Scientology.
evidently not..................:)
and BTW you do realise atheism is a form of religion dont you?..........;)
That's absurd. You theists tell yourselves that but look up the definitions.
scooter that takes is about the dumbest thing I have read in weeks. How is the denial of the existence of all deities a form of religion.
That's like saying creationism is scientific fact. Both ideas are incorrect.
Scientology is no more a religion than Jedi-ism is.
Atheism is a religion as much as bald is a hair color.
Definition of religion.
noun
1.
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4.
the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5.
the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
Explain to me how atheism is a religion.
"Belief in God" isn't a religion. A worldview and set of practices based around that belief is probably a religion.
Atheism is a belief, specifically the belief that there are no gods, but a single belief isn't in and of itself a religion.
The Common Sense Aetheism site lists 17 kinds of aetheism.
Atheism means the belief there are no gods.
Atheism is indeed a religion. It takes far more faith to believe in a big rock that existed from all time, exploded from unknown causes and formed round planets and all life than anything in ANY religion.
Timothy,
The big bang theory, that's your argument in favor of atheism being a religion? A scientific theory?
Lame.
Next.
Wrong Timmy, Atheists do not believe in a big rock that existed from(?) all time. If you are referring to the Big Bang Theory (which I doubt because you're nowhere NEAR describing it accurately), then let me remind you that there is evidence supporting it. There is NO evidence supporting the notion of a world-wide flood or the universe was made in six days or a person could live in a belly of a whale or those other silly stories some religions tell you.
I am not an atheist, but I also do not believe in God.
Atheists are CERTAIN there is no god, in the same what that christians, muslims and jews are CERTAIN there is a God.
Im simply a non-believer, God might exist...and might not.
I'm rolling the dice for sure, but so too are people who believe in GOD but dont actually practice what he preached.
How could i EVER want to become religious or a christian or whatever, when american christians tell me because im gay im going to hell, but fail to acknowledge that they are rich (by the worlds standards) and arent going to heaven either?
Sorry, but I want no part of that stupidity...it's embarrasing.
Well put, Jessica.
A bunch of brainwashed people.....it's a cult!!!
Atheism is not a belief, unless you mean it in the same absurdly literal sense that I "believe" I am not a talking frog dressed up as a human as a joke. If my atheism is a religion, then my I'm-not-a-frog-ism is a religion as well, by your logic. Atheism is a choice to not believe in a theory which is inherently unsupportable and which requires several fundamental assumptions that do not accord with our observed reality. In short, it is a choice to be rational as opposed to believing and basing your life on a random and arbitrary set of ideas that have no connection with reality. There is crazy and not-crazy. I choose not-crazy. I have never seen a mental hosital to treat you for the problem of not being crazy, so I think I'm on the right track.
Most of the atheists I know simply believe that there is no supernatural deity that fits the criteria for a God as believed by most of the world's religions. Some believe that whether or not there is a God is essentially unknowable, although some call that agnosticism. I, personally, have a belief in the continuity and connection of everything in the Universe, which makes me not an atheist. However, I believe that all organized religions are one of two things. They can either begin when a human being has a mystical, non-linear experience, and tells others about his or her experience. However, within one generation every "religion" of this type---which is most religions---develops a priest caste, who begins to use the founder's experience as a way to control and manipulate the masses and finds ways to ensure that the faithful provide the priest (or mullah or Elder or whatever) caste power and riches. The second type of organized religion is one that begins with a clever charlatan, one who has the charisma to obtain followers who will believe what he says. He then has a "mystical" experience in which he finds magic tablets an angel has left, or he flies on a winged horse to heaven and comes back with a set of rules of behavior that everyone in the world must follow, one way or another, or, in the case of Scientology, he writes a science fiction book that somehow or another enough people fall under the spell of to create what they call a "religion." In all the above cases, this secular country allows them to avoid paying taxes, which is probably what much of the Narconen scam is about. Also, they have very good marketing, and have sold their "drug rehab" services to a great many municipalities, prison systems, and desperate parents and loved ones, to the great disservice to both the addicts they torture and the loved ones they deceive as they cash their checks. One of the reasons they claim such high statistics is that when the "successful" patient graduates, he has been steeped in the con of Scientology and is generally offered a decent paying job within the "fold," either as a "counselor" at a Narconon facility or somewhere else in the Scientology domain. Other religions have used this same con for years, particularly the more fundamentalist and dangerous Christians. When you get a person at their personal bottom and somehow offer them some hope of a better life, they often view their rescuer with an attachment akin to worship, and are very easily manipulated into whatever system the rescuer is proposing. This is no different than general cult indoctrination as done to people who are rootless, discontent with their lives, and searching for meaning that DON'T have a drug problem. The religion or whatever that they find themselves in, especially since all cults persuade converts to cut themselves off from family and friends who don't belong to the cult, offer them meaningful employment or inclusion such that they don't require outside employment. That way, the cultists reinforce their beliefs through their interaction with one another, and begin to view those outside the cult as the "enemy," especially when the mainstream society sees the damage the cult is doing and begins to make inroads to stop it's efforts to woo new members.
Jessica and Cappy: No! That's nonsense! Atheists believe a thing which has evidence supporting it, there is currently ZERO evidence of "gods" and tons of evidence in science. Period. If Jesus descends from heaven over the 49ers game, I'll be the first to say "OMG: I was wrong; Praise Jesus." Until that happens and I see the proof, there is/are no gods and since there is ZERO evidence to contridict that, I suggest you take the same tack if you wish to claim intelligence. Or, don't; I don't care but don't call atheism a belief when I have evidence of the truth of Physics and Biology, and Molecular biology.
You CAN say that all atheists are, by definition, also Agnostics due to their dependence on a medium which new parts of are being discovered all the time called EVIDENCE, but you cannot truthfully call us "believers" or faithful; I am not "faithful" of the fact that our atmosphere contains oxygen, I prove it every day with every breath I take not to mention the millions of scientists who have broken it down, analyzed it and documented same.
Scientology is evil.
rates right up there with all those other "evils" like science, electricity, air and space travel, fish on friday, lent, etc,etc,etc...........:)
Scientology is science fiction. I read it was started to make money as it was easier than writing sci-fi.
If you actually look into some of the horrors that go on because of that evil "religion" then yes you can pretty objectively state that it is very deeply ethically flawed, at best. I am all for reasonable freedom of religion, but for the extremist militant Muslim groups, and Scientologists, I just cannot trust them. Looking objectively at all major logical theories of morality and ethics, you just cannot justify those groups existence.
L. Ron Hubbard was an inept, condescending idiot. And a drunk no less. So why in the hell anyone would even give this fool one minute of their time is beyond me. Thetans? Really? I find pretty much anything Hubbard has ever written to be worthless dribble, better suited for the bathroom...and not for reading material either. Way to go Katie Holmes! For getting away, and running as fast as you can with your daughter in tow! Seaorg my butt.
Some words of whiz-dumb from L. Ron Hubbard hisself:
Science of Survival (1951)
I'm drinking lots of rum and popping pinks and greys.
$30,000 - typical.
You will never find a more greedy, conniving, money-grubbing religion than Scientology - and considering most televangelists, that's quite an accomplishment!
My guess is that now that people know that Narconon is associated with the Scientologists fewer people will trust it. I know that I had no idea.
NarcOnon is linked to Scientology. NarcAnon (as in ANONYMOUS) is not linked to Scientology. NarcAnon is an offshoot of Alcoholics Anonymous and the FAMILY program of AA and is a 12-step program for the families of people who are in NA or need to be in NA. NarcOnon is a group of rehab facilities. I have a feeling that Scientology took advantage of the good name of NarcAnon and deliberately was named such to engender confusion among people who don't notice the spelling difference (which is pretty difficult to do when the name is SPOKEN).
The program for families whose lives have been affected by someone else's drug use is called Nar-Anon, not NarcAnon. It is a 12-Step program that helps family and friends understand what's going on and get their own lives back after doing anything and everything to get their loved ones back on track. It is not an offshoot of AA or NA. It is more likely a sister program of Al-Anon.
The Narconon website (narconon org) says the following:
Support from the Church of Scientology and Its Membership
L. Ron Hubbard, who developed the drug rehabilitation methodology which the Narconon Program utilizes, was also the founder of the Scientology religion. While the Narconon program is a purely secular program which is open to members of all faiths, it has enjoyed the support of the Church of Scientology and individual Scientologists since its beginnings.
In 1966, when Arizona State Prison inmate William Benitez wrote L. Ron Hubbard asking for help, it was Scientologist volunteers who helped him to set up the original Narconon courses inside the prison.
In fact, the majority of new Narconon facilities established since that time have been made possible by the volunteer and financial support given by Scientologists.
It is an important part of the Scientology religion's social mission to reduce the suffering and degradation caused by alcohol and drug abuse on a worldwide scope. Scientology churches join churches of other faiths in seeking to improve living conditions as well as the social and moral environments in which we live. As part of this mission, Churches of Scientology actively encourage their members to support the Narconon program, by helping to open new centers for drug rehabilitation or drug education and by volunteering their time to assist existing Narconon programs.
Therefore, it is common to find Scientologists from all walks of life volunteering to help the Narconon organization by conducting fundraising drives, establishing new centers and making its solutions known to people in need.
The Narconon program brings new solutions to the field of drug rehabilitation and education to all peoples of the world. Scientology Churches and Scientologists are proud to support this program.
Narconon is a child company of ABLE, the "Association for Better Living", which is run directly by members of Scientology's Sea Organization. This makes both of them Scientology-controlled entities (which is recognized in agreement between Scientology and the IRS).
Also, while individual Scientologists are persuaded to fund Narconon, Narconon itself pays money to the Church of Scientology in "royalties" for use of the Hubbard material. The Narconon Trois-Rivieres tax returns are publicly available and this seemed to be half a million dollars a year at a minimum.
Narconon makes good money for the Church of Scientology.
Maybe if the CoS wasn't demanding their piece of the action these centers could afford medical staff.
I was in NarcOnion. I busted high school vidalias for doing drugs. :o) That was pretty bad.
There is no NarcAnon. The legitimate 12-step program known as Narcotics Anonymous is ONLY known as Narcotics Anonymous or N.A. -- these are their ONLY registered trademarks per N.A. World Services.
NarCONon is the Scientology rehab.
Cat: NarcOnon is a stolen name which they only got by with because N.A.'s Serenity and Anonymity policies probably prevented them from suing for the theft of copyrighted material, plus they probably didn't realize what a blatant cult-recruitment-tool it would be....also probably let it go hoping that more people would be helped away from the disease of addiction, folks in N.A. care more about helping ppl than copyrights. Folks in Scientology's NaCONon: not soooo muuuuuch....obviously.
so these so called "parents" sent their "precious little darling's" there? correct? and they did so on the word of entertainer's ( read in trained monkey's) rather then check it out thoroughly on their own?.... sure its someone Else's fault, it certainly has nothing to do with them or their doper kids.....get a friggin grip......
No. This shouldn't have happened. Drug rehab is always a risk but it also is the only chance for most to continue living.
Many were mislead by Narconon's own unsubstantiated claims of a 75% success rate, independent checks suggest it's as low as 10% but in truth it's never been properly substantiated and their claims should not be believed; 10% may not be accurate, it may be lower, but it's more accurate that 75%.
Sadly parents who are desperate because they see their loved ones addicted to drink or drugs tend to grasp at anything they think will help their loved ones. Their situation makes them vulnerable to the kind of exploitation that Narconon does when it makes unqualified claims.
IA.ScooterTramp, the tone of your comment disturbs me, you appear to have no empathy for people. Sure people are responsible at some level for their actions but in this world where organisations such as Narconon exist either by getting around proper regulation or thanks to the lack of proper regulation people do get abused and it's right that we show sympathy towards their plight.
Look at all the ex-scientologists who've been terribly abused by the church of scientology, mentally, physically or financially. Those who claim they were responsible for their own abuse clearly have no idea how such insidious, corrupt and corrupting organisations as the church of scientology can twist a person's good intentions to make them work for the organisation to the detriment of the individual.
Very well said Mr. Fox. Drug addiction is something I take very seriously, as that I have lost my little brother forever thanks to the power of these drugs. And I find it very curious that there are many countries out there who have either outright banned these "scientologists", and their "church" from their respective countries, or do not recognize it as a valid religion. I strongly believe in "freedom of religion", as that is one of the cornerstones of our American society, but there are groups out there (read: scientologists) that simply take it too far. We were considering sending another family member to the facility in Oklahoma, thank ZENU we didn't!
Wow, scooter. Try not to show so much compassion for families who are desperate to help their loved ones and see a promise of 75% cure...I mean we wouldn't want to think you care about these suffering people and their families, would we? Perhaps you should get a grip...on your humanity.
"but there are groups out there (read: scientologists) that simply take it too far."
they dont take anything any farther than any other religion does...as a non-religious person, your religion (whatever it is) looks just as insane as theirs.
but naturally, YOU wouldnt see it that. just as scientologist wont see that their religion is a farce.
im perfectly ok with people believing in GOD, im pretty much NOT ok with basing laws and restricting peoples freedoms based on YOUR religious views...especially when it's a matter of picking and choosing.
such as, gays cant get married because your bible tells you it's a sin.
yet, americans can get filthy stinking rich...even though, rich people will never enter the kingdom of heaven (so sayeth the bible)...
it's just quite absurd when you look at all the picking and choosing...that bible NEVER said gays couldnt marry, just that supposedly, they arent going into heaven.
you arent banning people from getting rich, so why ban gays from getting married?
stay consistent my friend - I know, I just asked you to do the impossible.
Jenny Gambino AKA Scientology plant/apologist: No; rehab is not dangerous when there are medical professionals involved with the proper oversight and equiptment to monitor the patients. That's why NarCONon is a scam, it demands secrecy like all cults and cannot get accredation from any medical association in America, which is one of the easiest countries in the world to give such accredation. It demands HUGE sums of money and puts it all into investments to get MORE money, not into providing it's facilities' patients with the proper safety and resources to actually help THEM, and it uses questionable practices tantamount to mind control/indoctrination observed of most cults studied currently.
Jenny Gambino: It is a lie if you claim that NarCONon isn't created and run by/for/immersed in Scientology and Scientologists, therefore the discussion of "religions/cults" as you say and CULTS as I say is perfectly appropriate of Sheri Daniels and your disgusting minimization and dismissal of her friend, whose death was probably the fault of/direct action of your cult, is cynical and awful.
Misou: You DO believe Marc Lacasse because you know he's right, you're just lying to protect your cult. Perhaps you can put in some word with David Miss Cabbage to get independent confirmation of NarCONon's successes and success rate from medical professionals in the field so your lie-um-claim might have some credence? They can anonymize the results to protect anyone from recrimination, but it might add something called truth to your claim. Or, are you afraid it would be proven to be a Recovery-mill for the purpose of financing Scientology's many dubious "investments"?
All I have to say about scientology is look up Lisa Mcpherson and scientolog. They killed her when she wanted out of this cult. Lisa recommended them to me for marriage counselling and we went once and knew it wasn't for us. Lisa moved to Florida from Texas when her dealth happened and her aunt took them to court and they were charged for 2 felonies which was later dropped. They use to send me magazines I called and told them to stop sending these to me they killed my friend Lisa Mcpherson. They have told me several times they didn't. They are all liars and since then I use to love John Travolta and Tom Cruise but what kind of people are they to be in this cullt?? Please help the people they killed. How many more are they going to kill!
"Please help the people they killed." Pray? Get them a new body? Put in a good word with G-d? Sheri, this is about a drug rehab facility called Narconon. Keep religion and cults to other threads.
Narconon is integral part of the scientology corporation. Therefore Narconon is part of the scientology cult.
I don't believe you. But even if that would be true, now what? Narconon is a worldwide secular program based on the works of L. Ron Hubbard (Scientology founder) with ten thousands of grads that now are able to lead a drug-free life.
Jenny, would you be so forgiving if it was a Christian drug program that people died in? Or a secular psychiactric program?
Narconon is a secular program sure, but it promotes the church of scientology and many of its courses are the same as those done by the church of scientology.
Narconon treatment centres are runs as independent non-profit organisations which pay license fees to Association for Better Living and Education (ABLE). ABLE says that its a secular "social betterment" organization that uses the ideas of Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard, but is not a part of the church itself.
All ABLE staff however are members of the church of scientology's Sea Org which is the church of scientology's elite para-military organisation.
This means while on paper ABLE is secular and not associated directly with the church of scientology in practise, by virtue of staffing, ABLE is completely controlled by the church of scientology. Further more, by virtue of having to pay license fees, Narconon non-profit organisations are beholden to ABLE and so to the church of scientology.
More interesting though is that whereabouts of the president of ABLE, a Rena Weinberg, is unclear but several eye witnesses report her as being in the church of scientology's executive prison, colloquially referred to as "The Hole", between 2007 and 2012. The very prison set up by the leader of the church of scientology, David Miscavige.
When one connects the dots Narconon organisations connect to ABLE, which connects to the church of scientology which is run by the iron fist of David Miscavige.
Here's a pic of Scientology's organizational chart, which clearly depicts Narconon as a "public division" of Scientology:
bit .ly/Ppc0WG
Perhaps a good way to way to look at the "mainstream"media is to use NBC, CNN, BBC, Fox, Time, SP Times, New York Times, etc. as the mirror that their genocidal Nazi propaganda masters use each morning as they get up on their hind legs and bray out their plans for the "New World Order" police state and DEpopulation.
Fortunately, these days almost no one trusts them to broadcast anything approaching truth.
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/248082-Mainstream-media-in-decline-as-they-lose-Americans-trust
LOL thanks! I needed a laugh.
Reminds me that I need to tighten my tin foil hat to keep them dang scientologists/nazis/religionists/racists/aliens out of my head!!! Thanks Larry! It would appear that the conspiracy theorists are alive and well! Lol!
Awesome - "tin foil" and "conspiracy theory".
Two of the many propaganda terms used by the Rothschild/Rockefeller/Kissinger/Soros/etc. genocidal bankster cult to try to back off anyone with guts enough to expose their murderous DEpopulation agenda.
So overused that the terms main function today is to identify the propagandists and/or their dupes. Is this what you are supporting by forwarding "Rock Center" and their orchestrated propaganda camapaign?
"Nazi convicted mass murderers became executives for major U.S. chemical and pharmaceutical companies."
http://revolutionradio.org/?p=28297
Larry, just because everyone who knows you begs you not to procreate doesn't mean there is a huge DEpopulation conspiracy. It's not them, it's YOU.
Too late Chris - I have 11 grandkids.
Also served our country in the US Merchant Marine and Navy to help keep our Freedom.
You?
Hmm, sounds like "Larry Byrnes" is an operative for Scientology, performing a standard dis-information campaign to "handle" the bad news about Narconon.
Like some other disreputable religions, Scientology justifies any sort of threats, lies, libels and slanders to silence their opponents. So, Larry, are you going to prove me right by spreading lies about me, or perhaps threatening me?
My deepest sympathies to the families but they really should have done more research before sending their loved ones there.
Scientology and anything associated with it is a total scam! How this can be news to anyone at this point is beyond me. L.Ron Hubbard was a sci-fi writer and a proven liar before he packaged one of his stories as a creation myth. In my opinion anyone who gets taken in by them these days deserve what they get. There is no excuse for not knowing how crazy these people are.
Isn't it a fact that L. Ron Hubbard and Anton Levey, were good friends? One day they supposedly got together and talked about how to make lots of money fast and easy. They schemed about forming some type of religious organizations (because that would allow them to not pay taxes and then they could keep all the money for themselves) and Ron developed the Dianetics/Church Of Scientology and Anton Levey created the Church of Satan. Read about Hubbard's beginnings and tell me you still think this so-called religion is anything but a way for someone to make a lot of money. The COS is all about paying your way up the latter and I don't know of any other church/religion where that is the case. Or, you're paying them to help make you a better person, according to them anyway. Just don't disagree with any of them.
I know people will sometimes grab at anything to try and save a person they love from drugs. It's a shame people take advantage of that and that people have died because of Naronon. I hate it when anyone takes up for these people. Read it for yourself.
And the deaths caused by Big Pharma's killer drugs?
Handled with a slap on the wrist fine that they build into their drug-for-profit bottom lines.
http://www.propublica.org/special/big-pharmas-big-fines
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/12/business/drug-giant-is-fined-1-2-billion-in-arkansas.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1345129228-vA/g3semNH2tb12xgw5yRQ
And this legacy from the "Governor" of Indiana - Mitch Daniels - ex propaganda hit man who failed to take out Narconon 20 years ago. Is he still trying?
http://www.iwatchnews.org/node/4499
"But when Daniels worked as a top executive at Eli Lilly & Co., one of the world’s largest drug firms, the pharmaceutical giant’s reputation was tarred by some of the nation's ugliest drug scandals."
Is your argument that because drug companies get away with killing people then Scientology should too?
Not the point.
I'm familiar with Ron's Journal 68. I know what the point is:
"The general attack line is along the lines of "human rights". Human rights. Now I'll give you a clue now how this is handled.
Somebody comes up to you, he's a hostile person. He's hostile to Scientology. And he says to you, he says "anti-scientology, wah wah wah wah." And you say "why are you against human rights?"
And then if you know anything about human rights, like the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, United Nations, that sort of thing, you know something about this subject. You just follow it right straight up. Total attack. In other words you don't defend Scientology, you just simply attack along this line of human rights."
Nothing excuses the terrible abuses of the church of scientology under the iron fist of its "Dear Leader" David Miscavige.
The same church of scientology which has an elite quazi-military group called the Sea Org.
The same Sea org to which all the staff of the Association for Better Living and Education (ABLE) belong.
The same ABLE to which all Narconon operations have to pay license fees.
Nothing excuses the abuses which peculate down throughout the church of scientology from the top and into those organisations associated with it directly or otherwise.
Even the most heinous criminal acts do not excuse the abuses of the church of scientology because even though it may be worse over there does not make what's happening here right.
Scientology is the biggest bunch of BS I have ever read in my life. Total and complete BS. Hubbard made all that crap up and I can't believe anybody with half a brain would believe any of that nonsense.
When you are dealing with a cult, nothing surprises me. God gave people the ability to be doctors and scientist and the ability to develop medicines that work most of the time. This is just another sad case of not getting the proper help you need.
hypocrite much? You can't accuse a group of being a cult and then reference "god" in your argument. Just because it's 2000 years old doesn't mean it's not a cult.
Chris
Hundreds of prophecies predicted hundreds of years before they happen and they have happened exactly 100% true. I'd say you can trust the God of the Bible! No false religion can make that claim. Check it out, you'll find it true.
Hundreds of prophecies predicted hundreds of years before they happen and they have happened exactly 100% true.
Quote some. That's a pretty generic statement.
johnny, do your own homework, the Bible proves itself true. I've studied the word of God for 30 years and I know what it says. Take the time to read it, you'll see the Bible proves itself true. I could give you some but it wouldn't change your mind, you need to allow the Holy Spirit to change it for you. Your eternity depends on whether you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior or not.
johnny, do your own homework
You want me to believe your words but you wont (or maybe that is can't) prove them....sounds like religion in a nutshell.
Your eternity depends on whether you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior or not
1 billion hindus, 680 million budhists and 2.2 billion islamists would disagree with you there.
My eternity has no dependance on a mythical being.
You are the one that is claiming that the Bible proves itself true and yet you aren't willing to give examples because you can't change the person's mind? Why should a non-believer have to read the Bible to prove what you claim to be true? Sounds like you don't have much faith in your beliefs that you can't give a person some examples.
Donna & Johnny
OLD TESTAMENT
Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.
NEW TESTAMENT
Matthew 1:18-22
Christ Born of Mary
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly. 20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.
This is just one prophecy predicted hundreds of years before it happened.
Terry,
There were several "sun gods" that fit the description of Jesus long before the supposed birth of Jesus, including the December birth, which relates to the the winter solstice, a pagan event. Try looking at the evidence. By the way, bible quotes prove nothing. I could quote Cinderella but it doesn't mean mice can sing in real life.
LOLOL
That's what you're calling a prophecy that was 100 percent true?
A story from the Bible that can't even be proven? That's your proof?
That's like saying the prohecy in Tolkiens Lord of the Rings about the return of the king is a true story.
Come up with something provable.....you do know what proof is right?
Chris, I didn't expect you to believe. It is no different than any other event in history. You get the facts and it's up to you to believe them or not. Like I said in my earlier post, "I could give you the prophecies and you still wouldn't believe."
johnny, your post proves my point, you chose not to believe history proven by archeological finds. Have a wonderful day!
What facts???? show me evidence in the real world and I'll believe. Same goes with Xenu, the warrior princess.
Terry, then by your logic, archaeological finds have also proven the existence of the Egyptian and Greek gods as well. Just because relics are found that were created by people who chose to believe this stuff doesn't prove it to be true. The Bible is not proof because there is no way to prove that those words were actually written before any of the events happened that were supposedly predicted. For all we know someone could have said, 'hey, so-and-so said this would happen' as the event unfolded. The only fact is that there are no facts to religion and the reason for our existence, there are only beliefs. Just look at the con artists using religion for their own gains now? Do you actually believe those type of people didn't exist then. Yet keep tithing your 10% as you are supposed to.
johnny, your post proves my point, you chose not to believe history proven by archeological finds
What archeological finds have proven that prophecy?
There's archeological finds that can almost be said to disprove the resurection.
Here's a link
http://www.christianpost.com/news/new-archaeological-discovery-questions-jesus-bodily-resurrection-70506/
You will note this is a Christian website.
See I made a statement and then followed it up with evidence.
What other documents besides the Bible tell of an immaculate conception?
Show me a Bible prophecyy that has been proven with historical facts?
Just one.
You should know that while the church of scientology claims to be compatible with all religions its high level teachings state that all religions are the result of alien implants and so are false. There's a lecture by L Ron Hubbard, recordings available on the Internet, in which Hubbard states there was no Christ.
That said I'm an atheist and based on the lack of evidence so far am disinclined to believe there was an actual Jesus Christ. Even if there was he was not the son of a god, he was not born of a virgin, he did not perform miracles and he was not resurrected. I do not however believe the story was implanted in our minds by aliens.
Dean, that's your choice and I can't convince someone who already has their mind made up. I can lead you to the truth, but the Holy Spirit is the one who does the convicting. Have a great day!
I can lead you to the truth, but the Holy Spirit is the one who does the convicting
If you could lead me to some facts, you'd have a shot at changing my mind. Since the Holy spirit hasn't bothered to show itself to mankind, he can go the way of Santa.
Since the oldest books of the New Testament were written at least 40 years after the supposed events, and most of it was written centuries later, it's highly unlikely that the writers were eyewitnesses. But it is highly likely that the writers were familiar with the Old Testament scriptures, and likely added the "virgin birth" part to fit with the Isaiah prophecy.
Moreover, there are deities of other religions, predating the time of Jesus, that also had a "virgin birth", miracles, execution and resurrection 3 days later. Horus, Mythras, Dionyseus, etc.
Virtually every "miracle" in the bible was predated by an older religion (that to Christianity would be considered "pagan") who had the same myth. Virgin birth? Comes from the Mithrans in ancient Phonecia. Death and resurrection? Virtually every pagan religion has it's story of death and resurrection or rebirth. They all had creation myths, some quite similar to that written in the bible. Face it: the bible was written by HUMAN BEINGS, and many of them had their own agenda. Today, when someone tells us that God has ordered him to kill someone else or perhaps an entire group of people, be they abortion providers or every Muslim under the sun, we either surround him with concrete and steel and keep him there or we hospitalize him and give him medication until God stops talking to him.
Yet, in the bible, how many stories are there where God has ordered some Hebrew to commit genocide, and then rewarded them for it? Remember the tribe he told to kill "even the babes in their mother's arms, and every ox and sheep?" Sounds just like an Islamic fundamentalist today when they start talking about killing every Westerner alive, and they claim their God is telling them it's A-OK.
If there IS a God, I think he has a pretty bad rap because of all the things his fans have blamed on him that pretty much were things that they just wanted to do, but knew that without the "blessing of God," people weren't going to follow them into what had to be an unbearable slaughter. Even 5,000 years ago people knew the magic word to get others to do the really horrific crimes was to claim that whatever genocide they were planning was on God's to-do list. Even now most of the slaughters that occur break down along religious lines. They generally involve money, property, turf, and prestige, but it's hard to get people riled up enough to do things that they know in their hearts are evil, unless you can convince them that the victims are on God's s^*t-list.
And how does big Pharma get away with murder?
Bribery and corruption of course.
Any wonder why these criminals get their propaganda machinery like "Rock Center" (WONDERFUL name!) to attack any rehab program that helps people recover from the drug scourge that they create for profit?
http://www.hangthebankers.com/eli-lilly-admits-to-more-than-200-million-dollars-worth-of-doctor-payoffs/
https://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/08/business/pfizer-settles-us-charges-of-overseas-bribery.html
http://www.dailypaul.com/245017/exclusive-glaxo-whistleblower-goes-public-with-shocking-details-of-bribery-marketing-fraud-and-other-pharma-crimes-learn-
Hello NBC! Anyone home?
Please read my post below this story is about the deaths of unfortunate drug addicts. It is not a place for you to try to articulate some drug conspiracy story for your own gain. I believe you may be a Type3, but it is not your fault your brain has been indoctrinated however you can return to society. There is still time for you to rehabilitate your life and do good in this world, Please consider this
So what does Larry Byrnes-385295 have to gain with their post? Does anyone here need something to gain to participate?
When he is reciting propaganda attempting to derail honest discussion of Very Important subject matter, yes he is attempting to gain however he is losing or failing at it miserably.
Thanks Pat for bringing up the story-for-your-own-gain angle.
How much ad revenue does NBC get from Psycho Pharm to push killer drugs?
This propaganda series from "Rock Center" (can you believe that name?) is standard practice - called collateral support in exchange for ad money.
Time magazine did it for Mitch Daniels - Eli Lilly propaganda hit man- in the early 90s in an attempt to take out Narconon and they both lost that battle.
Think NBC will do any better?
http://www.healingdaily.com/conditions/pharmaceutical-companies.htm
"In 1998 an extensive study published in the reputable Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) showed that 106,000 people die each year in American hospitals from medication side effects.
Let's look at this statistic a different way: 106,000 deaths a year averages out to nearly 300 deaths per day, every day. Deaths from all major airline crashes in the U.S. average less than 300 annually, but 1 airplane crash gets more media attention and governmental scrutiny than the 300 medication-related deaths which occurred not only on the same day as the airline crash, but also every day before and after for decades.
...
Drug industry profitsare so large they outstrip every other industry's profits by far."
"
So what does Larry Byrnes-385295 have to gain with their post?"
Larry is a Scientology Office of Special Affairs "internet handler" who's been sent here and his post is meant to deflect, a standard Scientology technique.
I wish I could verify that choocho25? - OSA is an awesome group!!!
No - I am just a Scientologist who loves spiritual freedom, loves to help others, am a member of a family with 4 generations of Scientologists, have 11 grandkids and served this country in the US Merchant Marine and US Navy so you could still have your freedom of speech.
And I excercise my own freedom of speech by calling attention to the genocidal Rothschild/Rockefeller/Soros/Kissinger bakster cult that financed Hitler, Stalin, every modern war and created the drug culture that has destroyed millions of American lives and millons more around the world with their agenda of endless war, impossible debt, total police state and DEpopulation.
You?
... And all that madness just comes spilling out... Paranoia deluxe...
Tell us, "Larry Byrnes", how much money has Scientology sucked out from your bank account? Do they keep demanding more and more to "climb up the ladder"?
How many of your grandkids have been sucked into that cult, and now have little or no life outside?
How many of your former friends, relatives and associates have been labeled "Supressives" that you now have to shun?
IA.ScooterTramp,
It is the facilitie's fault. They claimed to be drug-free yet still administer drugs. It is their fault.
No, the facility didn't administer the drugs. One of the reasons they should not be considered medically-approved is because they use no drugs, and many withdrawal syndromes can be fatal without medical intervention. What it sounds like they did, however, was not have responsible staff on hand to stop the drugs that came in either from corrupt staff and patients. Since their staff is generally made up of very recent "graduates" that makes perfect sense. A lot of rehabs save money by keeping new grads around and paying them minimum wage to baby-sit the detoxers and inpatients. It's a dangerous game, however, because many of the new grads have already relapsed, or have financial reasons to break the rules and bring in drugs. It seems I read that one of the deaths was an overdose caused by drugs brought in by a staff member who was trading drugs for sexual favors by the patients. If they were a legitimate treatment center rather than a cult whose real purpose is to grab people at the lowest point in their lives, when they are at their most vulnerable to cult indoctrination, and attempt to brainwash them into joining the cult that Scientology is, they probably would have more responsible staff. But then again, you have to look at what their real purpose is. Scientology is a "church" because the American government, in it's unwillingness to step on any "religious" toes, gives tax-exempt status to any cult or hate-group (Like Westboro "Baptist," who uses quotes from the bible to picket the funerals of soldiers who have died in war) who gets a 501(c)3 and puts the word "church" in their name. It is a scam to separate people from their money, and Narconon is one of their most profitable suppliers both of new converts and cold, hard cash. $30,000 for a few weeks of what amounts to dangerous detoxing, "nutritional" regimes for which there is no scientific verification, and being bombarded with Scientology propaganda has got to be one of the most effective scams ever invented. What's most insidious is that people, especially parents, desperate to get their children off drugs before they die, are incredibly vulneraable to good marketing, and groups like Scientology (and others, like the Christian-based Teen Challenge) sell their sketchy "rehab" to those sad, desperate, people who often are wow'ed by fake claims of recovery rates, fancy brochures touting their brand of recovery, etc.
Unfortunately, an addict has to WANT to recover; no amount of will from those around them is going to get and keep them sober. However, a good treatment center, especially one that recognizes the connection between substance abuse and untreated mental illness and treats both simultaneously, can make the difference between life and death. I never understood why I couldn't stay sober until I finally wound up in a dual-diagnosis facility with a great doctor who figured out that my untreated depression and post-traumatic stress disorder had to be treated at the same time as my addiction for recovery to last longer than 30 days or so. With the proper diagnosis, medication and therapy enabled me to finally live a life free of the need to self-medicate, and I have been clean and sober for a number of years. Had I had the misfortune to wind up in the arms of the Scientologists, I would very likely be dead now. Their sneering at the medical advances in psychiatry is just another indication of why they should NEVER AGAIN be entrusted with the care of very vulnerable addicts desperate to get sober and willing to listen to whoever is there at the time. I'm surprised they haven't killed many more people than they have. Actually, they probably have. We only hear about the ones whose families have filed suit against them. I'm sure that many were talked out of suing, probably either with threats, guilt, and/or a cash settlement.
I would post something negative about Scientology, but then I am afraid I might get sued.
Yep, they'll do anything to make money, even abuse the courts. The only "church" I know of with more Lawyers than Ministers!
Looking at the posts it seems the Scientology gang is here to defend their cult. To think that Hollywood makes jokes about Christianity and then endorser a Ponzi scheme cult. If Jim Jones were alive he would be jealous.
Yeah OSA came to play.
Pat Brown, Geo Caliban, Winnie Perot and Mijia are all one person named "Louanne", not her real name either, who is a Scientology Office of Special Affairs "internet handler" posting from Scientology's Big Blue office building in Glendale, California.
how do you know that? just curious.
@yoyomi
(dot)com/45547/anonymous-going-after-scientology-this-month/#commentsadmin says: April 11, 2011 at 9:44 pm
The following are all from the exact IP, using different names and free email accounts:
~~ JeanneB ~~ BarryBigs ~~ Jesse ~~ Lee
Here is an update as of 4/12/11 @ 10 p.m of the various identities using the exact same IPs … this info is also in a separate comment:
Summary of users associated with exact IPs:
Batch #1, all using the same IP beginning with a 1 and ending with a 6, with various gmail addresses/name combinations:
JeanneBa (beginning 3/31/11 at 3:11 p.m.) Louanne (beginning 3/31/11 at 5:33 p.m.) Jeff (beginning 4/4/11 at 2:08 p.m.) VicVic (beginning 4/4/11 at 2:47 p.m.) Jesse (beginning 4/11/11 at 11:07 a.m.) Lee (beginning 4/11/11 at 11:20 a.m.) BarryBigs (beginning 4/11/11 at 9:21 p.m.) Louanne Lee (beginning 4/12/11 at 3:51 p.m.)
Batch #2 — Exact same IP that begins with a 6 and ends with a 7:
GreatBusby (beginning at 4/11/11 at 9:11 p.m.) Louanne Lee (beginning 4/12/11 at 5:54 p.m.)
All of them from the 1st IP are from a confirmed corporate proxy server for Church of Scientology International. The 2nd is associated with a cemetery but could have been piggy-backed on that IP.
Whether these are the same people or not are up for you to decide, based on their writing styles etc. We have retained server logs for those who wish to complain that these are lies.
Deborah
Here's a gender-confused Louanne, not her real name, getting outed by the admin on
(dot)com(dot)au/2011/03/what-is-an-e-meter/, the previous post was from goddiscussion(dot)com.
Louanne Lee
MONDAY, MARCH 14, 2011 AT 10:44 AM
Thanks, Jeffrey, for the source information.
Reply
[–]
Nick Broughall
MONDAY, MARCH 14, 2011 AT 10:56 AM
Worth noting that both you and Jeffrey share an IP address, Louanne…
Sorry, urls seem to get stripped, that was gizmodo. I hope this isn't too far off-topic but it establishes that I'm not making conjectures out of thin air.
Scientology: the KGB of psuedo Christianity.
Scientology isn't even remotely "Christian", it does not use any Biblical scriptures and totally ignores all Christian precepts.
Curiously enough, though, recently Scientology added a new logo to replace their older "volcano" and "2 linked triangle" logos - a stylized cross. Probably to get more unwary Christians into their greedy money grubbing hands.
Yeah I'm gonna follow a religion that was started by the guy who wrote Battlefield Earth.....yeah that's it.
I'm more fond of the Stargate creation story myself. All hail the Ori! lol
I'm looking at this all wrong...I could make a fortune from starting a religion called Vulcanism.
Hmm tax free income, political influence, and money up the wazooo.
Live long and Prosper my children for the need of the many outweigh the needs of the few..or the one.
What do you think?
Wanna join? LOL
all you need is a poker game and you have "How Scientology began..."
sounds like fun but I worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster. He rocks my world with his pirate ways.
The TRUTH
Stacy returned to Narconon tested positive for Opiates and then was sent off to room at Arrowhead to die. No Responsible drug rehab would have allowed this to occur. She should have been placed in observation with a medically trained staff member (however no one was on the site in that capacity) and if she had she would be alive today. These certificates that are being spoken of come from CARF a diploma/certification mill of sorts. For parents/drugs addicts or concerned family and friends Do Not Allow your Loved One to be Treated by Narconon. Note all comments above are on record if you wish to research them
I was there when Stacy was there...and yes, she should have been sent to the e.r. or a medical facility! She was barely coherent that night before she died! But the staff wouldn't think to do that because NO ONE on staff is licensed in anything. I thought we would have licensed chem dep counselors, therapists, a medical staff with actual doctors and nurses! The "doctor" only comes in friday mornings to see the new patients. When I got out of the withdrawal area, I started the first course which taught us the TR'S of scientology. All week for 8-10 hours/day we would yell at each other and cuss our partner out (bullbaiting), talk to ashtrays, etc. You can look up the tr's 0-9 on the scientology website, and that's EXACTLY what we did. Not to mention, the day after Stacy died, they were hauling her chart and paperwork to the dumpster!!! Thanks for the # to call to report as I will be doing that on Monday.
I saw the report on The Today Show just a few minutes ago and would like to comment. First: Drug Addicts do not die from 'mysterious' causes. Drug addicts die because they are drug addicts and/or alcoholics! What or where is the big mystery here? I have a child who has gone thru this program at this facility and is doing FAMOUSLY! I asked my child if they are pushing Scientology...the answer was "No." (Our family does NOT practice Scientology.) So, I guess it is a matter of perspective. This family's son seemed to believe they were. My child does not agree. Second: There are any number of drug rehabs in the country to choose from. I knew the practices of this facility and discussed it with my child. The decision to send my child there was my child's decision to go and was told after completing the program, "It was the ONLY program that would've worked." The 12-Step Program had been tried and failed... miserably. My child could've died going through withdrawal and was sent BY NARCONON to a hospital for over a week before completing withdrawal at their facility. So nobody can tell ME that they don't care for their students, or that there is anything questionable about their practices. Third: I am sure that for these parents, it's easy to blame Narconon for the death of their child. The blame needs to go to their child. They and they alone chose that road to travel with that first oxycotin, or needle or drink or whatever they used. On the other hand, I cannot imagine the pain associated with the death of your child, no matter how it happens. BUT...as my child told me upon completion of the progam, "IF I had died, at least I would've died TRYING to get my life back on track." Drug addicts die by their own hand EVERYDAY. Is THAT a better way to die? Because THAT is the option...or prison. Compare the mortality rate to other facilities in the country or the recidivism rate before doing a story like this. This story only happened because Naconon follows the philosphy of Scientology.
Yes
we can tell you that they don't care for their students and we just did. The
fact that your kid was one of the lucky few does not mean it is the norm. How
dare you dismiss the pain and death of others as no big deal and something to
be expected then say how much you love the program. How dare you! More than the deaths, we are finding out that Narconon has been dumping its failures at homeless shelters and hurting people so bad they end up in the hospital.
Hi Pat, I see that your name Pat Brown-6585880 when Ggoogled comes up with all sorts of SPAM for the cult. Are you OSA?
Pat Brown = Louanne
My daughter completed the program six years ago and is still drug free.. She said they never pushed Scientology on her at all. She also completed a 12 step 28 day program before she entered Narconon and used the same day she came out. As far as i am concerned Narconon saved her life.. The staff is very caring and helpful. I never felt like it had anything to do with Scientology.Using drugs to get off drugs does not work. Narconon had a different approach and i am so glad i sent her there. I'm sorry for the family's that lost there loved ones but if they werent drug addicts they wouldent be there. Drugs kill not rehab center.
Hi
D..0205, you're another "hatted" Scientology OSA volunteer who's made an account here just to post a "success story". I doubt your story.
choocho25
First of all I don't even know what OSA is. I am a Catholic. Not everybody that posts a success story is making it up..I wish I were making it up..It was the darkest time in my life..Not just for me but for my entire family.. I got little or no sleep for days on end. I lost excessive weight because of all the worrying and stress. I wouldn't wish a drug addict in the family on my worst enemy. Ill say it again . As far as i am concerned Narconon saved my daughters life.
I googled Pat Brown-6585880 and all I got was this.
Writing a bunch of post about evil drug companies does not deal with the deaths of you people entrusted to Narconon Dangerous facilities. It only shows that these types of people are interested in maintaining their 10% commisions they recieve for sending in unsuspecting patients/clients. That is a sick way to live your life.
You want the government to protect you from your superstitious beliefs? You should be embarrassed into oblivion for asking a religion created from a science fiction writer to help you. (Not that any religion is different in any way.)
You do realize the science fiction is different than science?
There is absolutely nothing scientific about Scientology. L Ron Hubbard made it all up, he did no research, no testing, no verification, just statements that the faithful are expected to believe without question. Challenging or questioning the wisdom of L Ron is considered heresy, and can result in severe punishment or expulsion and shunning.
True science, on the other hand, is always questioning and challenging and testing and verifying - things that are never allowed in Scientology.
Scientology is a mindf**k. Read "Inside Scientology" by Janet Reitman.