You're not alone: throw me an email: mikehext@gmail.com we have a support group :)

I'm getting ready to graduate in December. I just went through preview only to be told that I basically learned nothing in the previous 3 quarters. #FML. Now I have 8 weeks to produce 10 projects for Portfolio. After Ai, I don't even want to do Graphic Design anymore.

Maive, email me as well. :)

I'm in the exact same boat... $174,000 in student loan debt! I pay about $1,500 a month and wonder if I will ever be able to own a house or start a family as well. It's soooo sad, I would of done things so differently if I knew what I know now. :(

NBC should check their facts. The show displayed the Art Institute of Boston, however, AIB is not a part of The Art Institute group of colleges. AIB is affiliated with Lesley University a distinguished liberal arts college in Cambridge.

If I had one suggestion to current college students and those planning to attend college it would be this. Remember that it's up to YOU to get the best education. ALL colleges do not prepare their students for the real world. Again, it's up to YOU. I know many people who've graduated from prestigious colleges and universities who have either done absolutely nothing with their education or have been unsuccessful in selling themselves to a prospective employer. At the end of the day, before deciding to attending a premiere college or university, come to terms that it's up to YOU to get what you can from your education and take that education to advance yourselves.

My husband went to the Art Institute of Schaumburg. After graduating he was unable to find any work in his field. He only used his loan for school, didn't live near the school and commuted to get to class from home. (Which was by a tollway.) He was still saddled with 50k in debt. He has no hope to finding a job in his field and now works in the auto industry with a degree in fine arts and animation.

I am so glad they aren't letting this thing die. This is something I feel very strongly about. When I married my husband I also married his big fat debt-which is now over 200k in student loan debt.... Our payments are more than ALL our other bills combined. And often times we are living paycheck to paycheck.... It feels like there is no end in sight.

On another note - I know some people who work as professors at for-profit schools.... I have it on good authority that they are pressured to "keep them in their seats," and feel pressured to give them passing grades. Also, my friends who work for these schools work in the graduate programs and say that many - many - MANY of the students aren't graduate level students and often turn in work that is either questionable or is so terrible that is barely meets elementary or junior high grammar standards and they often ask themselves (the professors) how the student ever got this far.... I understand that these schools are saying they are serving under-served areas but by putting out students that won't be able to even make it through an interview isn’t helping them. Let alone find a position that would even allow them to make more than interest payments on their loans (and that is a good scenario considering how many default). There are a lot of shady practices and I think if these reporters keep snooping around they will find some people on the inside who are willing to talk. People should be mad about this and something needs to be done about it. This thing could potentially make the housing crisis look like a speed bump.

Pamcake...you make a very valid point, but instead of expecting media outlets, who can count these schools as part of their advertising base, perhaps the prospective students taking out loans should do a bit of due diligence. They should graduate from high school with these skills. They could research to see what the starting salary is for the Degree they wish to get pays. If you borrow over 100K and the starting salary is only $50K then perhaps that is a bad business decision. Do a search on the school that you wish to attend including reviews by past students or BBB standing. Research different loan options to make sure they understand the payment plan so that they are not putting their own financial future at risk. If you have to borrow for all of your education loan expense work part-time or full-time while you go to school.

Unfortunately, it isn't just the for profit Colleges or Universities that will pass students for the price of tuition, community colleges and State Universities have gone to this model too. Sadly it is a buyer be ware world. If a prospective student is unable to understand the research process or loan terms perhaps college is not for them.

I worked for one of the schools mentioned in this story. As instructors we are heavily, HEAVILY pressured never to fail a student, even those who don't show up for class. My bosses would constantly tell me to "keep them in the seats." The standing joke with admissions was if they have a "pell (grant) and a pulse" they are in. I finally quit because I could not stand seeing so many students who were not going to stand a chance of paying back 6 figure student loans only to be handed worthless two year degrees. These places are diploma mills that prey on the uninformed and need to be heavily regulated, shut down or both.

I feel it's also the responsibility of the institutions making the loans to ensure that the tuition/etc is in line, similar to what happens when you buy a home (appraisal to verify value of the home). It's so disheartening to hear students saddled with this unbelievable amount of debt when they can only hope for jobs paying $50K or less. The amount of debt I'm seeing here is more along the lines of what many students in medical school or some allied health careers will incur. At least those professions pay well and have guaranteed jobs when you graduate.

I went to Art Institute of Dallas and it was a crappy school and a poor choice on my part but as a general rule I try not to skirt my own culpability in my choices. As bad as AID was I'm not a victim; I was an idiot who didn't take the time to research and as a result I had debt that has taken a while to pay down. It's time to grow up people. Stop looking for a scapegoat for your own poor decision making. I AM NOT A VICTIM, neither are you. The warped view that stupid choices made by individuals due to ignorance results in absolvement from their responsibilities is disheartening. I will encourage everyone I know to avoid this type of institution but they have a right to exist and people have an obligation to honor their contracts. If you do not like for profit schools then don't attend; it's real easy.

I went to a private college for 3 years. After a professor told me some of the papers I wrote were the best he ever seen and accused me of cheating when I had not and another one flunked me after I was doing A work the whole semester, I transferred. They froze my credits while I was still trying to go to school. They wanted to hold my credits so bad they can have them, the whole crooked system US Department of Education can eat my dung. Since then I have had terrible laborious low paying jobs. I don't even try to pay back my loans, my life is destroyed I will never own anything.

Not to mention the other implications of having the market flooded with people who have degrees. It negates the value of a degree. I work for a very large company and the running joke is that they can hire MBA for entry level positions like secretaries, because there are MANY who are willing, even desperate to take it. It's really sad.

TXMOM - I have gone to both types of schools and I will tell you that the for-profit schools were a lot easier in terms of course-work (or I got a lot smarter). Many of the classes I took didn't even have exams and if they did, many were open-book....

Having worked as an instructor at a for-profit college, I can say unequivocally that students are being ripped off. I once complained to administrators about a student in my developmental English class who proved to be ILLITERATE--she had just graduated from high school! I was the second teacher to notify administration about this student, the first being a freshman comp teacher who had declared her unqualified for college level work.

I was told that this student scored highly on her entrance test! In effect, I was told to deal with it. Against the advice of my lead instructor, I flunked her (these schools don't want to flunk students because that will turn off their financial aid spigot). I told her she should go to a literacy organization--non-profit--for help with her reading skills. She was a sweet girl but clearly didn't understand what I was talking about. I believe she had some kind of mental deficiency.

The next semester, I saw her on campus and she spoke to me. She boasted that she was taking a Medical Terminology course!!!

These schools will take anybody, including students who don't even speak English who are just desperate for a diploma. They keep the students to get through all their financial aid, then shut the door on them when that's run out. Most of these students don't graduate and end up with bills in the 10s of thousands of dollars.

I tried to counsel students. As a term project, I had them investigate the jobs they were studying for. Although many discovered that Walgreens trains its own pharmacy techs (a big name for a simple cashier in the pharmacy with a minimum wage salary), they still chose to believe their counselors who described the job as "lucrative." I had them do informational interviews with potential employers to find out how many grads from this school they hired. Even though the answer was none, these students persisted.

In fact, employers often contacted the college to complain about the badly written resumes and cover letters from the students.

I finally just had to quit. This was just thievery, saddling students with debts using fraudulent techniques. I couldn't be party to it. These administrators wanted the teachers to sign "confidentiality agreements." Why would teachers have to sign such a thing?

That students, kids and adults, would be allowed to borrow such large sums of money with absolutely no collateral or means of repayment baffles me. But once again, the banks are allowed to rip off people with impunity and the blame will be put on the students who "shouldn't have believed the banks."

Now they are after veterans who have GI bills for their education.

Please, don't do it. Talk to potential employers to find out just how many graduates of these schools they've hired. Find out how many admitted students graduate and how many find jobs with a salary that's worth investing so much money for training.

People are naive...and trusting of these so-called experts. And this is why the economy tanked. Banks are at fault.

JQ - I think the point is that the tax payer is paying for many people's stupid mistakes. Why are we being held accountable for their mistakes? So no, I don't think a company has a right to exist when it deceives people and dupes tax payers out of billions of dollars by enrolling people who won't be able pay their loans back.

EVERYBODY (except the naive students) is aware of this for profit scam; including the politicians who sell them their votes to keep the status quo.

Willing.Sniper I call BS on you ask for PROOF of your nonsense....I have Federal Loans and guess what if u default on them they take any tax refunds that u are eligible for and they attach your pay as well through your employer and a fed loan cannot be included in a bankruptcy....so please tell us again how your friend is working the system...LOL!!!

The situation is the same at for-profits as well as state-run schools. The state-run schools have administrators whose salaries start at $85K and go up into the millions from there. Seriously--a state school where an administrator is little more than a middle level manager in a local corporate office.

That money has to come from somewhere--and it comes from graduating students no matter what their qualifications. Yes, I have worked at such colleges--there are particularly money-making programs (usually "liberal arts" or "interdisciplinary studies" with a "management" focus) that sucker in warm bodies with Pell Grants in order to pay the salaries of all the people involved.

Graduate and post-graduate programs in the humanities are the same--the professors sucker people in with promises that "all" their graduates are "placed" quickly. They don't tell you how many people get exasperated and drop out and how many they manage to place in part-time, temporary, replacement positions just long enough to qualify as "placed." If every single state college stopped cranking out MAs and PhDs in the humanities tomorrow--it would have no effect on the availability of people to teach in those programs (in professors for the programs) as the private schools crank out all that is needed.

The problems began when colleges and universities stopped being geared towards training people for vocations and started focusing on educating "enlightened global citizens." The professors then blame people for not having looked into their actual job prospects before entering a program--"advisors" don't really "advise" people as to what is in their best interests (heck, if they tell you to take the wrong classes, they aren't even culpable). Parents who try to intervene are called "helicopter" parents.

Once it became clear that it was really easy to sell people "the college experience" at a high price--then the for-profits came along. They really aren't bad--most of the schools offer pretty good training programs--the problem is that they are very expensive and encourage students to take out loans (the students shouldn't --they should study at a slower pace and pay for it as they go by giving up vacations or a new car or whatever).

People don't seem to realize that we have a wonderful technology center system in the US--it is cheap, it is local (if you are in an urban area), it is geared towards the working person, and it cranks out graduates with real skills with which they can get real jobs. I hope it doesn't get infected with this same "warm-bodies-with-Pell-Grants" mentality, but right now, it's the best bet.

Get a degree at a technology center that will help you get a good job, then gradually work through a real degree (not a "liberal arts" or "interdisciplinary studies" degree with a "focus in" human services or management or health administration--a real degree, like accounting). It might take ten years to work through the real degree, but you won't rack up debt and you'll have an actual job in the meantime.

I'm just glad that people are figuring out what a scam most colleges and universities are--and I mean all of them. About 50% of new college graduates are unemployed right now--all of it is a scam.

A balanced opinion - thank you so much. There is evidence of greed everywhere in the education system and ALL schools should be closely looked at. I would add that over 35 years of experience in this industry, it is often the student's fault to have high debt because they borrow as much as they can, even when not absolutely needed. There are new rules coming that will hopefully address some of these problems. Thoroughly investigate a college or university before enrolling!

it is often the student's fault to have high debt because they borrow as much as they can, even when not absolutely needed.

I wonder how many students would borrow this money if they were told that they would see their debt increase at a compounded rate by 12% a year and even if they repaid the loan at a minimum rate of $1000 month, they wouldn't pay it off in their lifetime, nor would they ever be able to buy a home, have a credit card, or even eat out once a week. If the student then said, sure, bring it on, then I'd wonder if the student had a mental deficiency.

It's dangerous to keep blaming the borrowers and never the lenders. Having worked over 20 years in higher education, I've seen the fraud and misinformation that goes on in financial aid close-up.

When I was deciding which college to go to (private for-profit, or community), I looked at how much each would cost, and the pros/cons of each. The community college was cheaper. The private college while more expensive had more labs and equipment for hands-on training in my degree field. Ultimately, I decided to sacrifice better training in favor of cost. I graduated with an associates degree from the community college with just over $5k in loans. I took 16 credit hours per semester and worked full time to pay living expenses. The idea of spending the kind of money for education that these idiots are spending is ludicrous to me, unless you're going to make $500k+ per year as an oncologist or brain surgeon or something like that. It's like the people who took interest only mortgages on their homes and then complained later that they were duped by shady mortgage brokers. "Didn't you read the paper before you signed it?"

I've been through them all. I started at my local community college because it seemed an obvious choice. Go to school at a cheaper community college for the first two years, get your AA degree and work part time to help pay the bills. I graduated and transferred to my local four year university. By this time I had moved into full-time employment because life moves on, bills mount up, and you need a job to make things happen.

When my job schedule and school schedule started conflicting I made the conscience choice to move to a for profit school, the University of Phoenix. The courses met my needs, I learned a lot because I was able to use the information I received immediately in my job as a network engineer. I paid my way as I went because I decided, again consciously, that I did not want to graduate full of debt. To that extent the first ten years of my working life consisted of the purchasing power to pay for a small but nice apartment, a used but clean and working car, and enough money to hit the club or eat out and see a movie once a week.

I graduated with a few years’ experience and a bachelor’s degree, found a better job and a better paycheck. The experience proved very fruitful for me so I repeated it getting a master’s degree from Keller Graduate School, another for-profit associated with DeVry University.

The point here is this: If you decided to mortgage your future on a degree in graphic design because you feel your artistic talents are worth millions that’s your choice. You can’t sit back and cry that you have $100,000 in student loan debt with a worthless degree when you consciously decide that you are going to finance your entire life for a full four plus years of college. Your degree doesn’t cost you $100,000. Your life plus your degree costs you $100,000. That’s your choice to make, not the school’s, not the government’s and not the taxpayers who are flipping the bill for your grants and loan subsidies.

Stand up, take responsibility for your choices, and pay your debts to those you owe. You’ll feel better about yourself. You’ll be looked at with far more respect by those around you. You’ll be part of the solution instead of adding to the problem.

If you feel you were taken advantage of, speak up about your experience. Warn others of the pitfalls of making similar choices. But by God get a backbone; stand tall, and own up to yourself and your responsibility for your choices.

It's dangerous to keep blaming the borrowers and never the lenders.

Agreed. But it's just as dangerous to never blame the borrowers. I'm not that smart, but I'm smart enough to know that $145,000 is about $100,000 too much to borrow for what, a bachelors degree from the Art Institute?

Unless a student loves a certain subject or else has demonstrated an affiliation or talent for a certain field, then getting a degree in one of the business fields is the best way of increasing job chances in the immediate future.

This is not to say that one should not study something that they think they might like. First however, just take a couple of relevant classes at a city college or an adult education center. Do not just jump in and commit to a whole degree right off.

Incidentally, in southern California, Art Institute does not have the best reputation. Otis School of Design is considered somewhat better. Art Center of Pasadena is considered the best at this time; but tuition costs so much for Art Center, that one would be better off just going on and paying for a degree from one of the University of California schools.

Why is everybody so hung up about a college degree?

Not that I am against education. But what is wrong with swinging a hammer or a wrench?

Nothing wrong being a tool and die maker or carpenter or heavy equipment operator etc.

Like a frind of told me a long time ago. There is always an a*shole needed with a screw driver to fix it.

After the Great Banking Fraud, the govt insisted on some basic reforms to protect those borrowing money for homes and through credit card and finance companies. No small print, clearly written terms presented on a page, notification of how long it would take to repay a certain amount at the current rate.

I've seen these financial aid sessions. Sign here, sign this one. Most times students don't even see that money at for-profit schools--it goes directly to the school coffers for tuition, fees, books marked up 100% sold by the schools.

I can't believe that a bank would consider it a worthwhile risk to loan a student with no collateral trying" to get a 2-year degree at for-profit school in the culinary arts $100,000! I have a job making half that annually, and I can't waltz into a bank and get $100K for a car loan or a credit card line.

If the bank was stupid enough to make such a loan, they deserve to be defaulted on.

Stop being so terribly naive people!! I just want to slap people upside the head like the gal featured in this story. Taking out hundreds of thousands of dollars for a bogus 'Art Institute' "degree" !! Come on! What the heck are you thinking?

1) NEVER attend a for-profit school, not even one like U. of Phoenix. If you don't understand the difference of what schools are for-profit or not, I'm afraid you don't have the brains to go to any college. Don't confuse (as some posters here have, a "private, NON-PROFIT" with a for-profit school. Where I work, the HR files all resumes of applicants with degrees from FOR-profit schools in the round file. Understand?

2) There really are no programs taught (and I use the word lightly) at these FOR-PROFIT schools that you can't get at a community college or a county/state vo-tech school, or a legit state school or a legit private NON-PROFIT college.

3) Most importantly, the US government needs to cut these for profit schools off NOW from the federal grant and student loan gravy train. That would put most of them out of business in a hurry, which needs to happen.

Willing sniper trying to blame Obama for this loan mess. Many of these students attendeded school prior to Obama taking office. That shows how baised your comments are. They really have nothing to do with this article, and the problems these loans created. Just another attempt to dig at our President. I sure you graduated from Tea Bagger U.

These are For-Profit Schools, not for For-Students, not For-Teachers, not For-Education. These are FOR PROFIT first, foremost, and always.

This too is a GOP conservative ideal. Unregulated, lacking standards, education for a profit. Can you say School Choice? Romney can. Thinly disguised as another profiteering business industry at taxpayer, and student, expense. Defund public schools, demonize teachers and teacher unions to ensure funding of good ol' boy education.

Now just where did Michelle Bachmann graduate from again? What you say, that school is no longer in existence? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....................

This entire mess is the fault of the Department of Education. Between government backed student loans, Pell Grants and other grants to colleges, the higher education industry has been flooded with government money for years. Government money has a tendency to ruin industries and college was no exception.

In 20 years when today's graduates have children of their own leaving high school, higher education in this country will be visibly dead. The ripped off graduates of today are NOT going to advise their children to attend college.

Willing sniper trying to blame Obama for this loan mess. Many of these students attendeded school prior to Obama taking office.

NO. She works for state government and SAID Obama's lax rules on federal student loans allows her to go back to school on the taxpayers dime and not have to pay it back.

She works-the-system because she works in governments social service dept and knows HOW....to take advantage of your tax dollar's for her personal use.

I just can not feel sorry for the person in this article who knowingly took on additional, unnecessary debt so they could go study abroad when they were already heavily in debt just to get their degree. The schools are not to blame for this, the students are. They make poor choices because it sounds like fun to study abroad for a year or sometimes more and give little thought to the burden of paying back this additional debt they are incurring. Personally, I do not think that federally guaranteed loans should be available to be used for programs like this. Federal education loans should be for getting an education and that money should not be used for unnecessary travel and living expenses to study abroad. These programs are not needed to get a degree and are an extra that should have to come from private funding sources. Go try and get a bank to give you a loan to study abroad without a federal guarantee on the loan, I doubt very much any bank would give you the money because they would recognize the questionable value of this program.

Some of these schools are without a doubt guilty of using deceptive practices to enroll as many students as possible, even ones who are not qualified for college level work. However, that does not excuse students who knowingly take on debt far beyond anything that is reasonable based on the prevailing salaries in the profession they are studying for. Students need to take more responsibility for "doing the math" to determine if the debt they are taking on is really worth what they are getting in return.

Where are any of the adults in this story that advised any of these students?

ANYONE with $120k in debt from a graphic arts school has to be insane. Did anyone with this type of degree actually look at the job market or talk to people in the field?

Even with an engineering degree that would be an insane amount of money.

I do feel sorry for you guys but maybe you can at least use your experience to warn your younger friends about this kind of scam.

It is not just the for profit schools that do this.

Part of this story is a stalking horse to try and shut these places down when state universities do exactly the same thing to their students.

beanathome, thank you, it is best to hear from those on the frontlines. I want to add a little point, and wonder what experience you may have had with it. Is it not true that research labs are also draining a lot of funds at universities? I once saw a film which cited them as a major problem at some northern California universtities, but I can not remember the name of that film.

One simple question - before you took out these loans did you stop and think even for a second? No one else is responsible for your decison but you...

Willing.Sniper

what you're openly telling the people in this forum is that you PERSONALLY have first-hand knowledge of someone working INSIDE the government who is committing a financial crime against taxpayers. have you been a morally upstanding American and alerted authorities of your claims? maybe one of us should? keep in mind that Accessory After the Fact and Obstruction of Justice are chargeable crimes...

i'm not okay with someone "gaming the system" from inside (or outside) to "steal" my tax dollars as you've charged. so which one of us is going to tell the DOJ?

With all due respect, you sleep in the bed you make. Anyone applying for a student loan should have understood the terms of it before signing. No one forced their hand. I'm sorry if I don't empathize, but with all these people's advanced degrees they never took the time to understand their financial committment to those lending organizations and their committment to paying off these loans. Here's my 1st lessons for these people. Education is big business. They know absolutely nothing about the real world and have been following the same cookbook for years. Case in point, tenure...A teacher who receives tenure for their years of service at an educational institution it's a both prestigious and tragic designation. Tragic because this educator has been teaching within the walls of an institution teaching the same method with the world around them changing. Bottom line, you need to rely on yourselves and learn to accept full accountability for your mistakes.

yeah, Get Real and ctdad, and no for-profit company in this country has ever taken advantage of a vulnerable individual with limited financial literacy and/or "forced their hand" into an underhanded contract. not one.

see how completely ridiculous that sounds? if only this were true, a parade of financial companies wouldn't be paying out record settlements and admitting to wrongdoing, while still others stand in line for their impending punishment.

one simple question: should for-profit corporations (and financial players in general) be just as responsible about AND for decision-making as the individuals they serve?

after all, corporations are people too!!

@christopher michael...think of it as a lesson in education and learn from it rather than expecting others to clean up after it.

All of these diploma mills are a scam. Do yourself a favor; do your homework in high school, go to a reputable community college to get your Associates at a reasonable price, then if you still want to and can afford to, transfer to a reputable state school to finish off the last 2 yrs. Study and don't prove PT Barnum right. If it sounds unbelievably good, it's probably a scam. And get advice from a respected guidance counselor at your high school (who isn't on the payroll of a diploma mill). Remember, loans are just that - loans. You have to repay them WITH interest.

MNSlim, even though it has been 3 years, I hope you will still write not only the dean of that school, but also your state's department of education; and also even the U.S. Department of Education, about that professor and class, and every thing that happened to you. Please still let those authorities know.

120k to learn graphic design??? It's ridiculous for a school to charge that for that type of program and just as ridiculous for a person to enroll at that amount.

HELP! my school has over 32K already paid, but blocked me from attending class because I am late on $281 INSTITUTIONAL LOAN....they are threatening to kick me out because of attendance. Anthem college. The teachers only have to post a 45min video once a week, but I have teachers kissing their husbands with kids making bunny ears, one teacher did not even get out of her pajamas, another held every lecture in a lunch room with a microwave buzzing the entire time with people making their lunch, another teacher could not form a single sentence, I have proof and I need help!!..........The School will not help me, they tell me to apply for more federal monies and then when that comes, they say "well it didn't cover the past due" so you are still going to be blocked....they let me in for this week because I have a stippen request in but its only a matter of time that they block me again. I missed an entire week because of this.

EVERY TEST I HAVE TAKEN IS POSTED WORD FOR WORD in a flash card deck from another website....FLASHCARDS made by an education supply place! Please help me please!!! I need to transfer and I need help I don't think this school will give me the proper information to transfer...help I'm almost done with my program. They are so rude!! and I cant get anyone to keep their promise about processing my paperwork and calling me for updates.

My current class in on how to get a job in the field, but now that Im in the program and its well underway, their are no more jobs posted, please can someone help me find out if monster and career builder post jobs for these schools with no real job out there????

Most of these diploma mills wouldn't exist if the government wasn't backing these loans. The government shouldn't back any student loans unless made to accredited schools that can prove those who attend have a high percentage of acquiring jobs in their field and low student loan default rates. Weed out the diploma mills raking in billions for worthless paper.

You are in college? Your english and grammer are sub par for a fifth grader. You should go get a GED and get a valid education. The crap our fearless president puts out about every person having the right to get a college degree and promoting grants and loans to do it is doing nothing but causing people to get further into debt and then be dependent on the government. There are plenty of places to get educated for an income producing job. Do you know what a plumber, carpenter, mechanic, or other skilled laborer make? Now add to that the fact that they are no paying off $150,000 student loans. Some of us had to go into the military to earn the money plus the GI bill to go to college. But continue to eat all the crap Hussein Obama is putting out and making dumb decisions on borrowing money for a fly by night college advertised on the internet or TV. But remember it is your fault.

one simple question: should for-profit corporations (and financial players in general) be just as responsible about AND for decision-making as the individuals they serve?

As long as it equally applies to non profits and to state supported schools. They are just as bad at this game.

Willingsnipper - Welcome! It's always good to hear from people who are not only off topic, but are slightly below dull-normal on the bell curve AND who willingly admit they are withholding knowledge of fraud from the authorities.

You got the trifecta, dude.

Guys...hate to break it to you, but not for profit school debt is just as bad. I know MANY with six figure loans to pay back.

YUP! and EDMC is a major donor of "RESTORE OUR FUTURE" SUPER PAC.

The real fleecing of the American Tax Payer is the traditional University System which relies on Tax payers, grants, donations, etc. to pay the obnoxious salaries for professors (and admin officials) whom make $300k-$500k for teaching 2 classes. The students from said Universities graduate with an Art History degrees and then wonder why no one wants to hire them. All the while they leave with no applicable skills for the REAL WORLD. The model doesn't work.

For Profits do work because they have to team with potential employers to find their needs in order to make their students "hire-able". Look at what's being done in Sweden now with for-Profit k-12 schools. The For Profit students are blowing away the traditional, government funded schools in all areas of their learning/testing. Why? Because For-Profits are constantly finding new ways to be innovative and effective which translates into "profitable" (such a nasty word in the government-worshipping world).

Look at the study done by Robert Shapiro (former Clinton Advisor) and Nam Pham in 2010 which revealed the comparison costs to the taxpayer between traditional universities and for-profit universities. The Traditional University Costs the American Taxpayer $19 for every $1 that the For-Profit Sector Costs.

This attacks like this article will continue as long as enrollments for traditional universities continue to decline and the for-profits continue take away their students by turning out a better product. The elite media will continue to find that 1 disgruntled student to make up "hit job" stories like this. Its really funny and Sad to watch.

Oh and before you attack my crediability...myself, along with my entire family and extended family, have received our undergraduate/masters degrees from Traditional Universities.

I would like to know which university is paying 300 to 500 K to their professors. Maybe the president or chancellor have a salary that high but most of the faculty body is way below that range.

Public universities have starting salaries (for assistant professors) in the range of 65K to 90 K, for 9 out of 12 months (the other 3 he or she has to fund himself by other means, such as grants, scholarships, etc.). Associate and full professors make more, but they are still below their industry peers when you adjust for experience.

In addition, a professor's job includes not only teaching (which usually takes from 25 to 50% of his time), but doing research and administration. In addition, most of them work 60 to 80 hours per week (research demands a huge time commitment) so the hourly rate of many professors is not as high as you claim.

Agreed with Patricio. My husband is a professor, and you are exactly on-par with what they make and what they must do to earn that. I don't know in what reality SlimJimJones lives in.

SlimJim - you have not read enough about the current state of for-profit "colleges". There are many out there whose tuition rates are at least double those of community colleges for associate degrees and certifications. And these are jobs that might pay $10-15/hr. In the DC area, there have been 2 for-profit colleges close in the last year. All of these students have loans, and I read that the loans for some of them will be forgiven because the students have not been able to have their records transferred to another school. Who ends up with the bill? You and me.

Oh Patricio, this will be fun:

(All this data is available online so it needs no embellishment)

The Liberal Arts Sections (the most useless of all College departments in terms of finding a job after college) in 2011 for the Univ. of MN (my school) total Salaries (w/ Overtime, BUT not including pensions, benefits/vacations/insurance, etc.) was $25,264,083. There are 174 Professors/Asst. Professors/Program Directors/etc. That totals in Salaries ALONE average $145,195.88 EACH

That is almost criminal given the amount of work that is NOT performed and the overwhelming majority of their monies contributing to their Salaries come from the Tax Payer, many of whom never went to college, ironically. All the while, the staff receives these enormous Salaries ($145K a year is HUGE even in the Private Sector)...no one knows how many of the students are hired or not hired with their basically worthless Liberal Arts Degrees.

Some questions that the Public Universities should be asked.

Are their program working or not working? After Graduation Employment Numbers should have to be tracked on each student.

Are the University Staffers working a set amount of hours or week? If so, how many? What type of work are they doing (meaningful work or sufing the net?)

What is the ratio to students graduated-to-students that are gainfully employed in their respected field of study?

Would love to see the data on what a waste the Public University System has become. Like For-Profits, they need to evolve and change with the marketplace before they become extinct. Until the "change" happens, you will continue to see attacks on the For-Profit Schools launched by the "Tax Payer Funded Money Pits" such as the traditional Universities.

It's not the teachers who make big money at universities. It's the administrators who make over a hundred thousand dollars annually. And universities have lowered their teaching expenses by hiring "adjuncts" to teach freshman/sophomore level classes.

I worked in professional development for a state university. The teachers aren't that good and don't keep their skills up to date. Teachers at a college level usually don't have any training at all for classroom teaching, unlike teachers at the elementary/ high school levels who are required to take education courses and complete classroom training.

As parents, you are paying a lot of money for students to take a class with an inexperienced teacher who's given a book and a syllabus and that's about it.

Hmm, If you get a degree in engineering we'll hire you straight out of school. The number of electrical, chemical and mechanical engineers is low. The US needs more. I'm not talking about ITT graduates, but graduates from ABET schools (your State schools). The jobs are out there, and they start at $50-$60K. A senior engineer (10 years) makes $80-$130K. You need to be able to study like crazy and work like hell to achieve the degree, but it's worth it. I worked as a janitor at night while going to school in my mid 30s, with a wife and kid (wife worked full time also). It's been 12 years now, and I'm glad I sacrificed and worked like crazy. You can do it, but you have to go to an accredited school, and it has to be hardcore, otherwise it's an adult bilking machine. As far as Universities not teaching useful material, BS, I use complex and transform math all the time (can't make good WIFI without it). Remember if it sounds financially nice and has "Cut back academics", or you don't have to take this or that subject which other schools require, then it's not worth attending. You're getting fleeced

Yes, there are university professors who make ridiculous salaries--they are not $500K, but $90K for what they do is ridiculous. And, the whine above about having to "support oneself the other three months" is a joke. The average household in the US has an income of $50K. Poor pitiful college professors.

They really do think that they make less than "industry standard." This is bogus--college professors make more than people in industry. The way they manipulate the "industry standard" is a joke. They are looking at people with a PhD who happen to get into a major position at a corporation--that's an ideal salary, not an "industry standard." It's a bit like looking at a person with a BA in history who is CEO at a corporation and calling that the "industry standard" for a history major with a BA.

College professors do a lot of "busy work" because they like to "self govern." That is, most of the committee work they do is a silly waste of time--no one cares what they think, no one is going to act on whatever silly piece of paper they manage to generate, and the whole thing could be better run on a completely different model.

Remember, however, that "college professors" are not "teaching faculty." The teaching faculty at a university (typically, about 70% of the instructors of undergraduates and mostly female) are adjuncts. Adjuncts are paid (theoretically) about $20 an hour part time. Realistically, they are making about $15 an hour because they don't work hourly--they work "per class," and classes take about 20 to 22 hours each rather than the 10-15 hours a week that is calculated.

While the taxpayer is getting scammed and so are students, remember that the people who pay a much more dramatic price are the adjuncts who are living on food stamps and teaching the students while the professors while away their time in "committee meetings" and "research" (which mostly involves sitting around reading books--which the rest of us would call "leisure") and occasionally gracing a class with their presence (while someone else does most of the grading).

Try this article for fun (http://chronicle.com/article/From-Graduate-School-to/131795/). It's called "From Graduate School to Welfare," and it has some very telling information. The public universities and professors care not one whit that most of the people who actually teach students are living in poverty.

Once upon a time, state college professors expected to have a working class income, below that of a doctor (and GPs didn't expect to be wealthy, either). These days, a middle class income of $50K isn't considered worthy--they whine about "only" getting $90K for nine month's work.

It is the unrealistic attitudes of college professors and their willingness to keep their own salaries by shifting the majority of the teaching load to people who are living on $30K a year or less that is annoying. Universities are plantations--with the grunt-level work done by adjuncts to earn the money from the undergraduates, and the fruits of their labor spread amongst the administrators and the small number of full-time faculty (who whine about not making as much as administrators).

Remember that most "college professors" aren't full time faculty--they are part-time, underpaid, overworked, fired-at-the-drop-of-a-hat, with no benefits and in sharecropper-like conditions. Try to find a full time faculty member who is going to admit that.

Patricio Parada....I'd say your figures are off quite a bit. Starting professors at many public universities start out around $50,000/yr. After a long and distinguished career they may hope to earn about $75,000-$80,000/year. Also, much more of their time is devoted to teaching and administrative type stuff (try about 70-80%). Research is much more prevalent in the private universities, where the professors are often paid much more for doing less teaching.

Ira,

This is mostly an issue of personal responsibility and demonstrates another problem with the Government providing grants, scholarships, etc. A reality check needs to be made before anyone attends any school, if you are unable or unwilling to pay the cost of tuition, then look for someplace else. I see posts on this Vine from people claiming they owe more than $100K for two years of schooling, if that is true, then those people are idiots. Common sense is missing here.

Also, as with many things in this country, if the government pays for things they have no business paying for, the consumer loses the true value of the service or good in question.

Please give us some specific examples of when "Republicans have blocked repeated attempts by the President and Democrats to reign in this fleecing of Americans by 'For Profit' scam artists."

I'm surprised you didn't blame Bush for this too.

get government out of the way"

It is the government that enabled this crap. State governments figured out about 20 years ago that if they simply raised tuition every year that student loan increases from the fed were automatic and so it was a painless way to help solve state budget problems.

The Obama administration nationalized the student loan industry and made it EASIER to get these loans. Now we have a bubble developed that is EXACTLY like the housing bubble, which was ALSO enabled by free government money.

When are you guys going to figure out that the government IS the problem.

It's pathetic how people make excuses for their own mistakes and expect others to pick up their mess.

Space guy, your full of bull and probably a little nutty of the conspiracy stuff. State universities have been raising tuition each year because states have been decreasing their funding to these school every year. Decreased funding = more of the cost if put onto the student.

The Obama administration did no such thing. They got rid of the middle man (the banks) that were administering federal loans. This did not increase the number of federal loans as the banks were selling them in the first place. It just cut the banks out of selling these loans and they are originated from the feds in the first place. This lead to a .2-.3% decrease in cost which saves the taxpayers money. The loans are not any easier or harder to get then they were 10 years ago. It is easy to say all these outlandish claims, but you have nothing to back up your opinion.

@Ira Jenkins, please enlighten me on how for profit schools are screwing Americans. From what I've been reading about student loans, it's seems to me that those who don't want to live up their financial obligations by paying them back want to screw taxpayers by having them pickup the tab.

@beanathome: Very interesting and enlightening article. Thanks for posting the link...

Space guy, your full of bull and probably a little nutty of the conspiracy stuff. State universities have been raising tuition each year because states have been decreasing their funding to these school every year. Decreased funding = more of the cost if put onto the student.

I worked at a state university for ten years and know exactly what I am talking about and saw this develop. When I started at the university in 1988 the full load tuition was $180 every ten weeks. By the time I graduated in 1998 (took some time off to work), the same load cost $3000.

The exact reason that states did it is because they figured out that Uncle Sugar would make up the difference in costs, and the feds did and that is why we are here today.

Hmm, If you get a degree in engineering we'll hire you straight out of school. The number of electrical, chemical and mechanical engineers is low. The US needs more. I'm not talking about ITT graduates, but graduates from ABET schools (your State schools).

Crazedengineer: Just where do you live? A lot of engineers I know are out of work because construction is down. Most companies do not want to hire entry-level engineers; they only want those with 10-15 years experience and they are not willing to hire anyone who has previous experience in construction even though most are willing to take a pay cut in order to be trained.

JAC-931625 I have been an auditor of student financial aid programs for 35 years and must disagree with your characterization of all for-profit schools as not worth of consideration for post-secondary education. I have witnessed many good, caring and not greedy for-profit institutions in those 35 years. However, I have also witnessed many schools of the type that are described here. There are many aspects of higher education that are currently not working as they should, but to damn an entire group because of the actions of some is just not good thinking.

NBC has "written the book" on exceptionally poor journalism. Remember back in the 90's when Dateline NBC blew up a GM truck with explosives and proclaimed to the world that a GM factory defect caused the explosion? Unbelievable, but true.

Except that was a Ford F150 they blew up...:)

Uhh, no it was a GM truck:

Patricio Parada....I'd say your figures are off quite a bit. Starting professors at many public universities start out around $50,000/yr. After a long and distinguished career they may hope to earn about $75,000-$80,000/year. Also, much more of their time is devoted to teaching and administrative type stuff (try about 70-80%). Research is much more prevalent in the private universities, where the professors are often paid much more for doing less teaching.

Willing.Sniper........That is a pretty ignorant thing to say. There is nothing that has changed about student loans since Obama took office. You need to pay them back and cannot escape them with bankruptcy either. They will hound you all of your life for those loans, and no one will ever loan you another dime if you default !

NBC has "written the book" on exceptionally poor journalism

I think News Corporation has earned that honor.

NBC has "written the book" on exceptionally poor journalism

I think News Corporation has earned that honor.

I think NBC has earned that honor.

@MM-584706 Actually it has, North Dakota used to give student loans from the State Bank of North Dakota, now that Obama changed it to federal student loans, the State Bank has lost millions in revenue. I went to college in the early 2000's and had a 2.3% interest rate, were else could you get a student loan for that rate? If I couldn't afford a payment, I'd give them a call, and I got no penalties ever.

LOL your name just gave away the fact you WORK for the industry. Credibility LOST.

That's what they always say, though. "You need to understand us better!" They say that over and over again at these schools. You know what the "inner workings" really are? Insider trading, lying through their front teeth, and covering their asses. That's all it is.

I worked for a small non-profit college for a while. At first, they repeatedly expressed to me that their company philosophy was all about the educational quality for the student. The department directors took me to lunch the first few weeks and made me feel comfortable about working for a for-profit. They were different from other schools that were solely about profit. They spent a lot of the money on the students and their technology. They really seemed like educating and placing students was their number one priority.

Then, as I worked my way into a pretty decent management position, I saw the ugly truth. Admissions staff were salesmen. They were told to do just about anything to enroll a student. In some cases when a student would tell admissions they were concerned about a drug related felony and how it would affect their employment, admissions staff still pressured them into enrolling, knowing full well that they would never be able to get a job in a pharmacy. When students tried to test out or transfer credits from community colleges, admissions staff was urged not to do so because it meant less money for the school.

Although they had a Student Services department to help students with obstacles to education, enrollment was the most important thing. A student could easily be denied a personal Leave of Absence. Once they were denied, they were AUTOMATICALLY enrolled in the next term, full-time, whether the student consented or not. A student may be enrolled in and miss multiple terms because of a personal crisis, and their account would be charged each time for classes they never signed up for or ever taken.

The worst was job placement. Some majors had a placement rate below %20, which seemed weird when I learned of it because their website always claimed around 70%. Then I discovered that they had set up a dummy corporation to hire students that had not been placed. They offered them temporary part-time jobs for a few weeks. Students filled out applications for the dummy corp. and a W4. Then they were asked to do tasks vaguely related to what they spent tens of thousands of dollars to learn, and the school filled out a placement verification form and sent it to their accrediting organization and the student was "placed".

Those are the real inner workings of for-profit institutions.

Please try not to paint every for-profit with the same brush. There are some really great for-profit schools out there, but a prospective student must carefully select their school and be able to resist the hard sell. Same as for any other aspect of life.

This is what happens when big corporations control the government.

In 2005 the Republican controlled Senate and Congress were bought out by Al Lord and his goons and they made Private student loans impossible to discharge in bankruptcy.

From then on it has been open season on the youth in this country.

These institutions straight up lie stating they will assist you with getting a job then when you graduate they wont even return you're calls.

If you're going to a for-profit school, STOP RIGHT NOW, you are part of a nationwide scam...

There is a reason that real colleges don't recognise their credits, because they are not recognised as real colleges in the first place.

The movement to end for-profit colleges which were a ripoff from day one was stopped by your congresspersons and senators. Be sure to write them and thank them!

This mess is NOT the fault of foolish students or greedy college administrators. This mess is a predictable result of government flooding the education industry with money in a quest for political points.

Why is nobody blaming the Department of Education which created the loan system that is now failing?

American Socialist, and if it was that bad of a situation, why didn't the democrats fix the problem when they took over the student loan business?

This isn't a political problem, it's a stupidity one.

If you cannot or will not repay, DON'T BORROW IT!

You can't teach stupid and a bunch of stupid people signed loans without understanding the terms. Period. Stop with the excuses.

I worked for a small, for-profit university in NW Iowa that sits on a lake. This particular school charges MORE than $36,000.00 a year. Freshmen come in at MORE than $39,000.00 a year. Harvard costs less. Most of the students made it through school with some, if not all, Financial Aid of some kind. Most graduate with over $70,000.00 in student loans. Many who go on to get their Masters have over $100,000.00 to pay back

My position was as a bookstore manager and my job was to sell as many textbooks, sweatshirts, coffee cups and shot glasses (for the underage group, AKA toothpick holders) as possible because we have what's knows as "unrestricted" Financial Aid. Our students could buy their books, lab equipment AND sweatshirts, sweatpants, stuffed animals, soft drinks, candy bars and condoms and charge them to their Financial Aid accounts. If they had the money, they could buy anything in the store. I worked with Financial Aid on a regular basis so that I knew which students had X number of dollars available to spend on a daily basis. I knew most of the faculty by their first names and knew first hand what they required each student to have for class. Here are some insights to the University they don't put on their webpage:

A. Students had to live on campus. No choice in the matter unless extraordinary, and I emphasize that word, circumtances arose. This allowed the University to charge an exorbitant rate for dorm rooms for all four - or more - years. Whatever you have seen in the movies is NOTHING compared to the reality of these rooms.

B. Students were required to purchase meal plans with the most expensive being a mandatory expense for freshmen. Cheaper plans were available - and we're talking dollars comparatively - for upperclassmen. Keep in mind the lesser plans had cafeteria times limiting when students could use the facilities. For the exorbitant rates paid, I've seen better - and eaten better - at community colleges.

C. Freshmen were mandated to take "J Term" classes which added even more to their total owed when they left school. because the classes are rated as 3 credits, the same as a regular semester class. J Term classes begin after New Years Day and last a total of three weeks. Students can opt for a trip - foreign or domestic, but you pay regardless of whether you choose the class or the trip, and most often times it is tacked on to final bill.

C. This is where it gets fun. Recruiters are the bread and butter of any for-profit school. The pressure is monumental to find kids. We have largely farm kids from a primarily rural area from which to draw. Most come from graduating classes of 20 or 30, so there aren't too many available for the number of schools in the area. With enrollment (and dollars) dropping for the seventh straight year, the recruiters were told to go after the athletes. Their grades are in the toilet; their SAT's and ACT's are deplorable. They can't write a sentence and their grammar is unbelievable. But they can get Financial Aid and the Alumni love a good football game. Next, they hire an International Recruiter. His countries of choice are India, Rwanda and Nepal. This was, and is, a disaster. BUT they can get Financial Aid! They can't speak English, they have no infrastructure to support them, and there are very few in this area to help them.

D. In talking with the faculty - tenured and not - I learned to shut up about the kids who can't - or won't - do the work. It's one less student paying to be there and no instructor wants to explain why students are flunking. I'm told not to question the J Term class on "Running" or reading a book on Sherlock Holmes mysteries for 3 credits. This is how the University runs up the freshman credits to 15 so the parents can feel proud of how hard their kid is working. The alternative is to spend several thousand on trips overseas for less then two weeks for the same number of credits. Pictures are posted and a parent's newsletter is sent to tell them how well their money is being spent. This is to round out the student. No, this is to round out the Financial Aid that will pay if the parents can't pay out of pocket.

E. I'm told to offer books as "Not Required" because the kids won't buy them, won't use them, and it irritates the parents. Since the bookstore isn't part of the University, the "cut" isn't enough to upset paying parents. Read "kickback" and "contract." I'm told to shut up when threatened with violence by a student of color to break a written policy EVERY student is given in a variety of forms because he could. And he did. More than once. I was told the reasoning was because he was a paying student that could cause trouble. I called Financial Aid and was given an earful about this student and his BS. Every semester this kid reared his ugly head. He won every time. Financial Aid is the golden egg and the upper echelon wants that goose to keep laying.

In closing this debacle of epic proportions, we have taken students not capable of doing the work and not only enrolled them, but we're graduating them in frightening numbers. The degrees we are handing out mean very little these days. We have taken student's who can't pass the SAT's or ACT's without embarrassing themselves and have actually lowered the standards of what was a quality University. We have brought international children thousands of miles from their homes and promised them a life we can't possibly deliver and made many of them miserable in the meantime. We have broken the spirit of people who wanted to teach and be part of something great and turned them into people who only care about tenure and the next pay check. We have lowered the standard of teaching because it's expeditious and smart. But what's worse than this travesty called "higher education?" We have broken the backs of parents who came in as "Freshmen Parents" so proud of their first college student. We have destroyed the dreams of kids who thought that piece of paper was their ticket to a better life. And we bankrupted a generation who will never do anything besides pay their student loans or face the consequences. As for me, I don't work there anymore.

I would add that if you were scammed at a public institution you should advise MikeHeXt of that also.

Good luck. If you signed a legally binding contract to borrow the money..repay it.

You may find a legality the school broke, but thinking you are going to benefit from a lawsuit is about as ridiculous as borrowing $200,000 in the first place.

jpeg....typical derp filled comment...

If dont got money chup-too rabble rabble lip bom doop....

Well, the dems tried via Tom Harkin...

http://harkin.senate.gov/help/forprofitcolleges.cfm

But you're beloved Reich wing party made sure that never made it to the floor.

Try doing some research....

Oh yea...and

"If you signed a legally binding contract to borrow the money..repay it"

yea...signed under false pretense

Apparently you are not intelligent enough to become educated. Who the hell loaned you a quarter of a million?

F*ck you bob

Hey the gay pride thing is on another site commie.

Cary,

Just curious, what are you getting a Doctorate in? What do you mean about when you say you were told the same thing about repayment? Finally, what is the new reform issue that is preventing you from finishing?

Posts like this fascinate me.

American Socialist,

What exactly are you angry at Bob about? I find it curious that I see more hateful posts like yours coming from the liberal/socialist left, yet it is people like you who call the Tea Party people and Republicans racist and hateful. But, then again, Obama is the master at doing attacking others for allegedly doing the very same things that he himself does.

It's no wonder that we are developing a nation of people incapable of accepting personal responsibility, that's because the vast majority of our alleged leaders share the same traits.

It is the Left Leaning people who go for the now-worthless BA degrees.

If you cannot handle the rigors of BS programs, you don't belong in college.

I know there are a lot of people with new BS degrees who can't find jobs, but
BA programs make one virtually unemployable.

Gads there are only so many jobs that gender studies and poli-sci will get you.

I am currently finishing my Ph.D. from a for-profit university. I only have my dissertation left. I did the smart thing, though. I finished my Bachelor's degree, and paid off my loans. I then worked full time while pursuing two master's degrees and owed nothing when I graduated. I waited several years, and then I started my Ph.D. and borrowed as little as possible along the way. Sure I could have started and worked toward my Ph.D. straight to the finish, but then I'd be in debt like many people are now. People need to take responsibility for their choices. Sometimes our goals get sidetracked, and we have to work our way back. If people need to take time off from school to catch up on their debt, they should do that. Choosing to be a professional student, and borrowing more money than a house would cost, is only asking for trouble. Why are we willing to pay on a 30-year mortgage for a home, but believe that our education should be handed to us for free? Americans, and I'm American, have become pathetic when it comes to entitlement issues. Grow up, people, and stop expecting the world to be handed to you!

Thank you for notice this as well!

Thanks for posting this, I left a similar post to Rock Center last night as I watched the segment. Rock Center please correct this error as The Art Institute of Boston is not part of the for profit Art Institutes. It is one of four schools which comprise Lesley University.

No, the University of Phoenix is just as bad. There is a documentary called "College INC" that covers University of Phoenix as well as EDMC.

Congratulations on having a positive experience, but you are one of the rare few.

I think anyone considering going to a for-profit school should first consider their local community college. It will save you tons of money and you'll get a good education. Don't be lazy on just take an online course with open note tests and busy work. Get your butt to a physical school and actually do the readings and do the work. Education in this country is slipping big time, and for-profits aren't helping.

I attended Devry which has a real accredidation and therefore is a real college. I've ran into degree snobs in various forums and find it puzzling how they can pass judgement on one school of equal accredidation without ever having attended that school. I'm a Human Resources Manager for an international manufacturing company with a MBA from Devry University. I make a salary above the standard, based on national and local salary surveys and my company will not discriminate from one college versus another, provided it meets the accredidation requirements. There is more to an individual than a piece of paper. But I guess I'm part of the "rare few" along with my previous boss, now a VP of Labor Relations and the Plant Manager at my last company.

.

Devry is a for-profit scam school as well, Jim. Its been all over the news. High debt, low quality, low results.

I cannot help but respond to your comment. I am a Visiting Professor who teaches at the Keller Graduate School of Management a part of Devry university. I teach two different classes to students seeking to attain their MBA. I only teach graduate school.

I can guarantee you that the schools I personally have graduated from are ALL HIGHLY nationally ranked universities and that I more standard of excellence letters behind my name than you might believe. However, and let me make one thing perfectly clear right now, personal integrity means EVERYTHING to me. Always has, always will... that will NEVER change.

I found your comments most disturbing as you are making a very strong contention that DeVry University, and therefore the Keller Graduate School of Management by attribution, is part of some poor quality, low/no standards, unaccredited education. Plain and simple: You are wrong.

We are fully accredited, students must pass an entrance exam or have a GMAT score sufficient to be admitted. I personally know of many instances that we do NOT admit new students because they lack the standards for admission. My students are all very sharp and determined individuals who are there for one purpose: to better themselves though a quality education. Knowing the other instructors as I do (and each one of them has similar credentials to mine in their own fields of study and instruction) there is NO doubt that our faculty is among the very best both in terms knowledge of content they are teaching and in there own very effective teaching styles as they present to their classes.

Frankly, I have been teaching at the college level for over 30 years. And what you are doing here right now with your comment is one of the most classic mistakes anyone can make in business (and in life). Not only are painting with a broad brush, but worse it appears that you are relying on information to make a decision about something that you have not done your due diligence. I have no idea how old the information is that you are using. I have know idea if the information has been fact checked for bias. I have no idea if the information you are relying upon is from a single source. And I have know idea if you have sought out other sources of information to challenge the conclusion that you seemingly have arrived at.

ALL good managers and MBA's know this. This is called critical thinking. It is one of the most important skills that anyone can have. You better be ready to defend your thinking. Expect tough questions. If you cannot make a cogent defense because you really haven't put in the hard work necessary to make a good decision (again, not just in business but in life as well) then what you are adding? to the process has very little value. This is definitely NOT a personal attack. I sincerely hope you view this as a learning opportunity. That is what I do. I wish you could visit a classroom to see with your OWN eyes that EVERY word I just wrote is true!

And by the way, I am not unique in this regard. As I said before, all of my teaching colleagues are incredibly competent and always put the student first. I can truly say that the quality of education received at the Keller Graduate School of Management is excellent.

I want to stress, I do NOT mean to offend. I just had to set the record straight.

Thank you.

A very very close friend worked for the University of Phoenix in the "sales" area and the stories she tells about techniques used to get prospective students enrolled are disheartening. Quotas and endless phone dialing and pressuring of prospectives made her sick until she quit out of exasperation and guilt.

The first hint that something is fishy about a so-called university or college is the amount of advertising any school does to the general public. Figure it out, folks.

Visiting Professor,

I concur with your take on the comments of others judging what they may not understand. I went to a traditional college for my undergrad degree and started at the same school for my MBA. Halfway through the MBA, I transferred to a for-profit online school (UOP) because of my travel schedule with work. Qutting my job to attend a "traditional" grad school was not an option for me. I had a pretty good paying job but it required a lot of travel. I must say I have never worked so hard in my life as when I was working for my online MBA at UOP. The work and those professors kicked my butt! I put in about 25 hours of work per week, per class! I actually did the research and a cost/benefit analysis to determine if my loans and degree would pay off before I signed up. I am happy to say my income has increased 67% since 2008 and I am down to just $3k in student loan debt. Proud to be a Phoenix! Couldn't have done it without UOP. It's a great option for a working adult with children.

Please see our official response to this program:: I’d love to speak with you about your experience as a student. Please contact me directly at Chad.Christian@phoenix.edu.

Chad Christian, Director, Public Affairs

Apollo Group, Inc | University of Phoenix

Rachael-

College Inc. omitted many facts and made allegations that are simply untrue.

I was also fortunate enough to have a mostly positive experience with UOP.

I live in Wyoming. Initially, I tried attending my state’s only four year university. It was a HORRIBLE experience. I could never get a hold of my advisors, and by the time I transferred back to a community college to try and regroup and figure my school situation out, I was so confused about what classes I needed to take and how to get done with school that it’s not even funny. My community college was fantastic, and I completed my Associate’s degree within a year. After this, I HAD to work full time to be able to pay my bills and make my ends meet. I am a single person with no children, so thankfully it was only myself that I had to worry about. Still, I wanted to finish a bachelor’s degree. I wanted more opportunities, and I believe I deserve the chance for an education.

Don’t get me wrong; UOP is ridiculously, crazy expensive. I do worry about never being able to buy a house, or never being able to finance my own car. But I graduated with my bachelors, have a decent paying job in my field, and am now working on my MBA. My fingers are crossed that I will be offered a well paying job that will allow me to pay back what is already a scary amount of loans once my MBA is completed. I’ve already started making some payments, and so far so good… So we will see. But my choices were basically don’t go to school, or take out the loans and push through and get it done. Does it scare me? Absolutely. Every single day. But for me, so far it has been worth it. I have a full time job. I go to school full time. And, I play roller derby—which is basically a second full time job. I’m exhausted, but I’m making it all work. Thankfully, my advisors are fantastic. My experience with UOP was so much better than my experience with my state school ever was and, I am pretty happy with my education. I am just crossing my fingers and praying that my experience stays good and positive. But on the whole, I’m pretty proud to be a Phoenix. Not because of what Phoenix is, necessarily… But because I worked my butt off to get there. I was not naïve about going into the school. I knew what I was getting myself into. It just happened to be the right choice for me at that point in time.

Nikon-

Student advisors have no part of their compensation linked to enrollment. Period. They are evaluated on feedback from students who choose to attend and from prospective students who choose not to attend University of Phoenix. For more on how Phoenix is leading on reform:

BSheel-

I’d love to speak with you about your experience as a student. Please contact me directly at Chad.Christian@phoenix.edu.

Chad Christian, Director, Public Affairs

Apollo Group, Inc | University of Phoenix

Well, Chad, I'd trust the opinions and observations of my friend over your compensated rebuttal any day.

Save youy baloney sandwich for the hustle that UOP puts on the unsuspecting students unfortunate enough to get on your call list.

What year did you graduate? In 2006 to currently they turned into a monster of a company.

When the Art Institute started in Pittsburgh it was a valid school. When it turned to majorly for profit is when the problems started.

I had professors there that went to the school in the 60s, and they had a positive experience. As soon as they were acquired by EDMC is when it started taking a downfall.

1975-1977. The Art Institute here in Jacksonville has a great reputation and a well-respected culinary program. I guess they are hit or miss in their levels of quality and performance.

I've actually heard great things about the culinary program across the entire school system for AI! Culinary is run a lot differently than the rest of the programs, as there's not really any way to cheat around teaching essential skills. And you can't fake being able to execute a lot of it.

It's the Photography, Design, etc etc that is very sub par.

The AI schools are not at all what they were when you attended. They have degraded significantly. Though the schools claim to have a great reputation, and still many excellent faculty/staff remain, the management structure of this institution is wholly unethical and it operates on the edge of legality.

Don't confuse your experience 30+ years ago with the schools that currently exist. These AI schools are mere shadows of the AI's past. This is not the school that educated many great artists; it is a cash machine for top management and a misery factory for the faculty, students, staff and recruiters. There are far more students in the school who cannot even spell "art" let alone produce it. Management could care less as long as the bodies and numbers are in line with projections. This is a diploma mill plain and simple. Anyone who raises ethical or legal objections will be fired.

EHhhh what? Have you checked the real scoop? Jacksonville isn't even accredited on its own. Its stretched from Tampa's campus or even SOUTH University. They're cheating the system and I know people who DID get scammed there.

BTW Culinary is a terrible program to major in:

Rack up 100k debt to get a job paying not even close to that. :/

You're better off starting off in the kitchen somewhere and working your way up. NO DEBT and more experience (and more money!)

Ai went from legit to wall street driven tyrants in 2006.

Right when McKernan took over (He basically propped it up for Goldman Sachs to invest) and then got even worse when Goldman Sachs & other firms took over and installed Todd Nelson, the current CEO, who used the same tactics at Phoenix. The same thing the government is suing them for right now.

So yes, I agree you had a good experience back then, but right now, they're just luring people in with impulse based programs to get FEDERAL PELL GRANTS, Federal Student Loans, and GI BILL money without ANY regard for the student after the first few months they can milk out of these students.

Let the church say Amen. Blessed be the God of our fathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who has in these last days sent us a Saviour, even Jesus Christ of Nazareth who has redeemed us from all manner of sin and discord. Peace be unto you all, we are redeemed. Glory to God for our salvation is here, bought on calvary by the precious blood of the Lamb, Glory to God in the highest. Amen, and Amen.

:( Did you go to Ai or any for-profit college?

Are you kidding!!! YOU knew what you were doing. Don't expect me to pay for you.

You don't really need to save for your kid though. If your kid is careful and goes to state schools while working they can get a degree for very little debt and students who pay their own way (plus moderate loans) do better than those just given money by their parents.

State universities aren't as affordable as they used to be. We were told $16K when our son chose his university, so we planned for $20K. It's not going to be closer to $40K. We live in Texas, where state university tuition was deregulated and costs spiraled rapidly.

And as a commenter above pointed out, some classes are only offered once a year. My son had three he needed, and when he went to sign up they were offered only in one semester and they were offered the same day in overlapping time slots.

He was also heavily "recruited" by one of the for-profit universities. They called him the summer just before his senior year in high school and apparently the calls were very high pressure. He had to ask several times to get them to stop calling.

I attended school in Idaho, I payed $3k a semester (12 -20 credits). I got a great education on the cheap.

Why should the taxpayer have to bail you out?

Why should the taxpayer have to bail you out?

Why should an 18 year old have to pay $100,000 for a degree?

It's your choice to obtain that degree, my friend. Don't like the cost associated with it? Try another avenue of education, i.e., trade school or a 2 year accredited program.

There are scholarships, or you can get education benefits from military service. Nothing worthwhile is free.

Paleface61: Why should the taxpayer have to BAIL out the school for recruiting and enrolling students at outrages fees and yet not providing degrees! Thanks your congresspersons and senators for that!

It was the Government who created this mess in the first place. Lots of economists predicted the Pell Grant program would ruin higher education through problems like these. Flooding any industry with government money is guaranteed to ruin that industry.

Keep in mind that it is government employed career counselors who so often encourage students to take on such enormous student load debt in the first place.

The only useful solution to this mess is to vote LIBERTARIAN. More government involvement will only make the situation worse.

Yup.

They don't care if you're designing coupons for a newspaper, a fry cook, or working the Drive Thru at a Fast Food restaurant.

They consider any job 'placed'.

yep! Scumbaggery!!

This is the law as written by the government.. most all schools consider this as "placed"

That is NOT true. There are several accredidations. The ACCSC that governs many trade schools has exteremely detailed and specific requirments about what can constitute an in-field placement. On top of that, there are internal verification teams that re-verify every single placement that has been counted. A minimum of 80% of the skills learned in the program must be performed on the job for the placement to count.

Except for Jess-6419798, the comments in this section are wrong. Please look at the standards in place for a school to count a student as 'placed' before commenting. Your prejudices are beginning to show.

This is absolutely correct. Placement stats must be met to keep the for-profit schools open. Placement is a nebulous word in for-profit schools. It can mean working one day at a place that may have little to do with the actual degree/certificate. Placement can also mean "confirming" that a graduate is self-employed in field. Placement statistics are used in the hard sell of Admissions. Unfortunately those numbers don't relate to legitimate, full-time, long-term, high-paying positions.

For-profit schools are a scam from beginning to end. They prey on under-educated, easily manipulated dreamers that want the easiest and quickest way. There is no easy or quick way that will lead toward being credible and employable.

News Flash.....A lot of the people coming out of brick and mortor big name universities with advanced degrees are not well prepared either !

I earned my MBA from Seattle University back in 1998 and had to delete it from my resume to find a job. There is a very limited need for MBA's in the current market.

At least in my case the tuition was paid for by Boeing.

Yeah, unless they are Ivy legacies.

Take a look at Western Governors, its all online and a fraction of a cost of most of them... Will cost me 1/10th to get Master's there compared to what my Bachelor's cost.

They bought the lobbyists. And they're all backing Romney because he's going to deregulate them further.

The fact is there are no more regulations to take; that's why we're in this fix as a nation and half the students will die having their SSI garnished for student loans. Romney has refused to give any more IRS returns compared to previous Presidentials who willingly gave up to 30 years worth of financials. Wondering now what he has to hide? ? Maybe somewhere in there he owns some major amounts of Sallie Mae stock perhaps>>? ;-)

Your leaders at work: They send letters to the DOE asking to de-regulate these scammers.

So what you are saying is that all of this is happening under the Obama administration? Not Romney's?

Really can't understand the logic of liberals. Don't bring politics into this. Students are screwed either way.

Cry me a river.

This mess would never have happened were it not for the various actions of the Department of Education. When an industry gets flooded with government money, corruption and degradation as we are seeing is inevitable.

If it were not for Pell Grants and Government Backing of student loans, tuition would not have skyrocketed over the past 40 or so years. This mess is entirely the fault of the "Department of Education".

As for Bernard Madoff, lets not forget that the SEC provided him considerable assistance in running his scam by causing his victims to lower their guard because they believed the SEC was actually looking out for them. The SEC is nothing but a bunch of foolish clowns who only check to ensure somebodies forms are in order. They are not capable of actually investigating criminals like Berni. There were a lot of investors who smelled a rat and avoided Bernard Madoff because they sought their information from entities not connected with government.

The first step in cleaning up this mess is to eliminate the "Department of Education". It has done nothing but harm since its inception.

Not to mention the joke of the "portfolio reviews". Ugh.

As a former faculty member I have had the opportunity to review beautiful portfolios from the 10-20% of students who really were well suited for the arts. The remainder were not so good and certainly not an advertisement for the schools. Had the schools remained dedicated to serving those 10-20%, we would not be having this discussion.

After the Pittsburgh/Online school attained accreditation with the Middle States Association in 2007, they set upon a campaign to eliminate faculty and department directors with the proper credentials and replace them with under-credentialed, and hence more compliant, faculty who are not credentialed to teach elsewhere. I would bet that my PhD and those earned by others who have since left the school's faculty still appears on the faculty roster to bolster the re-accreditation efforts in 2012. EDMC is an unethical organization and should be avoided at all costs.

I attended Pittsburgh from 03 - 06, and I loved some of my professors there. But some really did seem not to care. There was a little old german lady I had for drawing who retired shortly after I left that was absolutely amazing.

I wonder if our paths crossed? But regardless, thank you for actually caring about the talented students.

I worked for Ai Hollywood from 2003 - 2009 as the IT Director and it was the best most career fulfilling experience to help students achieve their goals of learning design (I don't consider Ai an art school). That is until Goldman Sachs purchased EDMC - that is when everything went downhill - quality faculty out the door and we became the diploma mill.

Working for EDMC for so many years I would never recommend any of their schools to friends or family.

Sadly, AFP, I think I know exactly who you are talking about if he was in the IDT program.

There is one student in my program who is somehow still continuing classes when he never submitted any of his work. There are a few classes that carry over into another, so we physically NEED our projects to continue or else there is no work to be done. This one student started his project, but a week before finals he trashed it to start over (this was over a month ago and he still never restarted), so he should have failed his midterm and final and should not be in the second class. But guess what, he is in the second class with no project. This isn't the first time either. He is still working on projects from classes that were due A YEAR AGO. The teachers failed him and the academic adviser as well as the department chair never signed papers for a grade change for him to move on. This has been bugging many students who have been turning in their work on time. I'm not saying he doesn't have talent, he really does and he is a great guy, but he has so much more time than everyone else to get his work done. I've never seen any of his projects finished, yet he is continuing along with the rest of us.

I have another teacher who is very strict on attendance because he is trying to teach his students to be on time for work in the real world. He had to fail many of his students solely based on their attendance record, but he was recently told to stop failing students who don't show up. Another silly thing is how the attendance logs have changed. They used to be done on paper and teachers can keep track of how many hours each student missed over the entire quarter. Now they are done online and teachers can only see how many hours per class for that one week they miss, and we only meet up once a week. It is almost like attendance isn't even being monitored anymore. I could be over thinking this one and it's just a coincidence, but who knows.

Housing is a joke too. AiP use to have 4 dorm buildings, 3 were being rented from another company and was was actually owned by the school. That one building was the worst out of them all. It was an old warehouse which was converted into apartment style college housing. The school quit using the other three and moved all of their students into this one building because they will make more money that way. They made over $800/month per student in the one building but only $300/month per student in the other three buildings because they had to pay rent to the other company. They are cramming hundreds of kids into this single run down building. Sometimes 8-10 kids to an apartment with one or two bathrooms. It has high concrete walls and concrete floors. Some of the walls began to crack after the east coast earthquake which I don't think they've ever fixed. It even has a reoccurring bedbug problem. The pictures they show incoming students makes that place look a hundred times nicer than it actually is.

The quality of work some of these students are passing with makes me sick. Especially the fact that the students who want to be there and produce great work are being placed on the same level. I've seen too many students from low income families show up for a few months and then leave because they can't afford it. The math/English/science/etc classes are dumbed down and have open notes/book tests because most of the kids they bring in didn't have the best grades. The school doesn't ask for a resume or have an entrance portfolio, so anyone with any grades or skill level can get in. I just got done with a high school summer camp, and when it finished, the school handed the kids (not the parents) the papers to sign up right then and there. They didn't have the skills to do what my major does and they refused to take my advice to make their projects better.

We have many projects lining the hallways. When tours go around, the guides tell the families a little about them. They find the teacher's work and tell them it's student work. They over embellish the simplest projects and machines we have to get them to come here (I do understand that's what sales men do (and every other college), and that's all they are). The funny part is that the truth behind the projects and tools we use is a lot cooler that what the people are being told. We have a lot of projects and tools, and I know you can't learn the story to all of them, but most can figure it out just by looking at them. The best part is, we aren't allowed to correct them. Many students have been scolded for correcting the tour guides.

The longer I go here, the more I realize how corrupt this place is. This is from my point of view and I can possibly be wrong on some things. I'm sure not all of it is EDMC's doing , but it's enough to make me regret coming here. I don't feel like I'm learning what I'm paying for. It's a very strange place and I should have done better research before coming here. Unfortunately it was the only school that offered what I wanted to do that wasn't on the west coast. Finally, the rant ends here. I really had to get all of that off my chest.

SHARE in the loss? Why should tax payers cover any loss on a loan a school makes to a student, especially a for-profit school? If this is truly a capitalistic country then the school should put up the money for the loans, deliver on their promises, and if students can't pay their loans back, they eat the loss. The full loss. No tax deduction for bad debt either. These predatory practices would cease to exist, because the very idea of running a for-profit with a predatory business model would be considered an oxymoron. Allowing these companies to exist is the most basic example of why "capitalism" is not the best solution for EVERYTHING!

Hear, hear, Sleuth23!

These same investors and owners of the schools are the same buddies on CEO boards who are outsourcing jobs and refusing to hire... They could slash the cost to 1/10th of what it is now, if there are no jobs then it still isn't really helpful is it?

Meanwhile every other civilized country in the world is wiping the floor with us, funny they don't charge $100,000 for a Bachelor's degree.

Great point!

Florida is great because of the Bright Futures!

I grew up in Central Florida, but although I scored high on the FCATS and other standarized tests, and well on my SATs I was the type of student that hated doing the work, so my GPA wasn't good enough to get it.

If I ever (can afford to) have children, I'm definitely not going to allow them to be in the same position that I am.

The schools were created for the private lenders like Sallie Mae that was dumped as a pseudo government entity and privatized years ago but the only way it makes the profits it has has been by way of the private schools; there's just so much abuse the legit state schools will put up with but theese private schools like Art institute have free reign thanks to the student loan lenders lobbying in DC! I love that these politicians now are doing a 180 ,,

credit hours vary but what for-profits do is give you the choice to finish in a year or less usually or go for over 4 years.. your choice. don't like it don't go to it :)

Joe - How do you expect employers to take a 1 year B.A. seriously? There is no way it can be done and equate to state school standards and employers know this.

Tuition is closer to $200 a credit hour... Graduate tuition is around 400 a credit hour in Florida

Aren't you afraid they'll garnish your wages and come after you? I have 100k more than you and I wouldn't ever dream of not paying. It ruins your credit forever essentially.

I didn't know that

Yeah be careful, I'm fairly certain that they can take money out of your paychecks if you stop paying after a certain time but I could be wrong.

If you're a veteran, I would see if the military offers any financial counseling, they should be able to point you in the right direction.

But not paying is unfortunately a bad option.

Oh yea! & they don't have to have a shread of paper proof to do it either- Hunderds of people who have had their identity stolen will attest to that.

And while their garnishing your wages & SSI, they also get a nice big payoff from the loan guarantor: good ole Uncle Sam also known as you & me taxpayer. So the lenders get paid twice/double for a single loan - nice scam eh?

I let my private loan default because those scumbags lied to me and told me they were FEDERAL because it was back when SallieMae handled both.

I am ONLY paying the FEDERAL. (and I recommend it because they will garnish. Private loans, I don't think will because there is SO MANY noncollectable ones because of scammers like EDMC who just wanted to use the private loans to prop their prices up and get more FED...)

Barry, email me, I may be able to help you a bit: mikehext@gmail.com

Racheal and Mike, thanx for your advice, I decided to take responsability for my default loan.

When you're a teenager whose parents never went to college, have no idea about financially responsibility themselves, therefore never taught you, and are promised that you'll be able to pay the loans back SO fast (which the art institute does) and tells you about the great places and the great salaries that you'll be making, it's easy to believe.

Plus nowadays nobody ever graduates in the allotted time the Art Institute says it takes for a Bachelors (3 years) therefore more debt is incurred.

Yes, everyone should know better. But you know what, not everything is so black and white.

I am definitely not an unintelligent person, and I wish someone would have told me what I was doing was wrong. But nobody did. And I'm not the only one.

It's a broken system that needs to be fixed.

I could not agree more Jace. :)

In theory - you're right - in reality, there's oh so much more going on in this industry. I don't mind paying for my loans; I went to a legitimate state college;I didn't mind working hard to get in - compared to many(not all) who join these private schools just because they think legit school is too hard for them & these schools lure them with a degree(which is seldom wortheven as much as TP). However, I Do NOT believe that gives lenders any right to use illegal unethical methods to make a profit- like getting paid by the US govt/ loan guarantor AND continuing to garnish the borrower for 20 years plus. the schools could not exist without the private lenders who freely give them money on the backs of unsuspecting students... Sooner or later, the lawmakers in DC have to wake up..

I have to disagree. If you have a GED or HS diploma you can go to community college. Cheaper and more flexible, community college gives you a chance to get your feet wet without having to jump in head first and drown, financially or otherwise. Why should you be allowed to receive these funds without passing a course prior to borrowing? This gives the student knowledge and understanding. At that point it is your responsibility and you should be held accountable.

Ah but if that were the only issue! - Do you speed past the maximum posted speed with a cop in sight? Of course not! Penalties and rules keep people in line and from breaking the law. Same for banks; my issue isn't paying back my student loans; it's the lendersthat are lying and stealing. Yes - just like Madoff, they are a corrupt lot because no one is stopping them..

If Ford made cars the way private education is financed by the private lenders,

I doubt anyone would make those statements if that bought a new car that died the next day. The connected abuses are much more complex than just picking a school and checking your loans; If your mortgage company operated on the same lack of laws that student lenders enjoy, anyone upside down on their mortgage would be stuck with that payment for the rest of their lives. But, no they get to make a short sale & in 7 -10 years can start over. In contrast student loans are forever,,,, I've heard the "you can't repo your education" excuse but citibank didn't go broke because they couldn't repo all the stuff you bought on your credit cards before going bankrupt - so it's a bad excuse for these lenders to bypass every consumer law...

Admissions "recruiters" have a powerful hustle and con for families and students. Most of the students are first generation college students and their parents did not attend college. The families I saw walking through the halls taking admissions tours were working-class and poor. The few wealthy and upper middle class students were usually transfers from better schools and their parents paid cash versus taking loans. The poor families were being sold a bill of goods that virtually no school outside the ivy league could fulfill. Hustled and conned systematically, hounded constantly for enrollment documentation many families relented and the nightmare of debt for their students began.

As an employee who cared about the kids, I felt that we were committing fraud every time I heard these pitches in the elevators and halls of the on-ground schools. Faculty constantly raised concerns regarding recruiting and were targeted if they continued to object to these practices. At the online school, the gloves were off and EDMC admissions recruiters lied to students who could barely surf the web promising them lucrative careers that the low-end bachelor's degree could never deliver. Recruiters were psychologically abused, forced to work long hours and harassed if they did not put bodies in seats. Turnover is rampant; two years survival in admissions is a long time.

EDMC executives are without a conscience or understanding of collegial practices. They are hacks most of whom never taught in a real institution of higher education. The "Presidents" of the schools are not even academics; they are MBA business hit-men trained only to produce student/tuition numbers on spreadsheets and eliminate any concerns about quality or education that may arise in the course of doing business. Those employees who refuse to succumb to these lowball tactics are shown the door even if they have given many years of service trying to do the right thing.

If you as a for profit business do not offer a good product and no one buys it then how can you make money? It is really that simple. For every law there is a loophole. Do you really believe that the law will protect you? Your dollar and how you spend has much more power.

..

If you as a for profit business do not offer a good product and no one buys it then how can you make money?

By bribing congress to eliminate bankruptcy and taking rampant advantage of an inelastic demand for class mobility that is impossible to actually deliver without somehow creating 50 million high paying jobs overnight.

the sad thing is in FLorida the public high schools actually encourage kids away from the state schools to these private "trade" schools" . Why pay all that $$ when the local Community College offers even better for so much less.

I don't think that's true. If you get above a certain GPA you get a full ride, or some percentage paid by the state in Florida to attend a State School.

Right now in FL $102 per credit hr is max for "full ride" bright future scholarship. The state universities are close to $200 per credit hr now(called tuition plus differential for what the sate allows them to charge extra). Legislature has made the scholarship so restrictive now, that less and less kids even with great GPAs can get it at all let alone keep it for 4 years. And even if you do qualify, they will not guarentee you university admission to the state school of your choice. The kid may end up having to use it at a private college (which costs about as much as a for profit) if they cannot get admitted to one of the state schools.

They sent a letter from congress to the DOE that I had hotlinked here, apparently NBC doesn't like links. Google it.

I think you have to have a certain amount of posts before you can add hotlinks.

It's an anti-spam mechanism, I'm sure.

MikeHeXt. According to the report entitled "Taxpayer Costs to Higher Education" done by Robert Shapiro (former Clinton Advisor) it revealed that Traditional Universities cost the taxpayer $19 for every $1 that goes to For-Profits. Let me repeat...Traditional Universities cost the taxpayer 19 times MORE than Traditional Universities.

The Political motive, if any, is to reduce the burden on the taxpayer. For Profits clearly do that, with the abundance of regulations that Traditional NON-FOR-PROFITS do not.

With regards to "high pressure sales tactics used"...this is evident in any business where a profit is sought. In the Business World (aka, The Real World) this is called, "Keeping the Lights On". The Traditional Universities don't have to do this, because they don't care if anyone walks through the door or not. The Taxpayer is their Sugar Daddy. He always writes the check to "Keep the Lights On".

And Mikey...here is some pointers on how to be an Adult:

When someone goes to a For Profit School...That said person/customer/student has the choice and free will to accept or decline the sales pitch and to accept the results from said actions. This is called "Freedom of Choice". If that said person accepts the invitation and takes out loans in order to facilitate their education, they must accept the risks involved in doing so. This is called "Personal Responsibility".

Right, SlimJim. Personal Responsibility is a concept that's lost on our younger generation. Bottom line: if you don't understand what you're about to sign, ASK. There are plenty of lawyers who will do the reading and interpretation for you...for a price, of course.

But, SlimJim, you are missing what is now the main concern - the coming "tsunami" of defaulted student loans. The Shapiro report was published more than 2 years ago, but you can bet that most of the data used for that report was much older than that.

TrickleUp..I'm not missing any point. The data on the Shapiro report was updated at the time of the report. Unfortunately, the economic outlook for recent graduates has not improved at all, it has become much worse.

The "tsunami" of defaulted student loans debts does not come from the For Profit sector alone. The overwhelming majority comes from the Traditional University System. Its hard to correct the student loan problem in a couple of moves however, some good places to start are:

-Sourcing the degree programs that are in low demand for the hiring workforce. Once sourced, they should be severely altered or removed all together, as their effectiveness in the marketplace and on the taxpayer is greatly reduced. Example: Not many employers are hiring people with Art History or English Lit. Degrees these days. The programs (reflective by their low demand in the marketplace) should be greatly reduced or not eligible at all for Tax Payer funded student loans.

-The amount of money (for operations and salaries) that a particular department is eligible for should be dependent on the ratio of students graduated-to-students gainfully employed in their respected field of study.

Would be interesting to know the trends of all defaulted student loans...how many graduated, how much debt, etc. If graduated, in which degrees do they hold.

I think everyone can picture in their minds what the defaulted borrower's degree was...something with very little REAL WORLD relevance. Unfortunately, for taxpayers, they are on the hook for these repeated delusional/naive experiments.

If you research graduation rates at all colleges (state schools, for-profit or private), you see some pretty dismal overall graduation rates. This likely means many defaulted student loans are to people without any degree at all.

The fact that you have a granddaughter of college age shows that your educational experience was probably obtained in the 1980's or earlier. Many things have changed since then, including the quality of for-profit education and the job market for college graduates. Comparing the outcome of your education and career to your granddaughter's and drawing any conclusion from that about the relative quality of for-profit and traditional colleges is erroneous.

Many other commenters have noted that from the mid-2000's the emphasis of for-profit institutions has shifted radically toward "For-Profit" and away from "Education".

"The fact that you have a granddaughter of college age shows that your educational experience was probably obtained in the 1980's or earlier"

Robert,

Not necessarily. Four plus years ago, at the age of 48, I graduated from the UoP. There were many students in my age range looking to advance their careers by getting/increasing a degree.

Once upon a time a degree was not required for many positions. Times have changed, as we as employees have to change with the rolling tides. Thus I looked at what was feasible and worked my a** of for a two year accounting degree. This degree has served me well.

With that being said, I felt for many students in the first three blocks, as you could tell that they were in way over their heads. And yes there was hard sale for me to go on for another couple years. But I did what was good for me, which was "no", since I would never have been able to recoup from that investment.

My advantage on doing what was best for me, was the fact that I was in a finance/accounting program. Every child should have several finance, economic and/or accounting classes before they ever leave school.

I’d love to speak with you about your experience as a student. Please contact me directly at Chad.Christian@phoenix.edu.

Chad Christian, Director, Public Affairs

Apollo Group, Inc | University of Phoenix

But there are many that graduate from high school that are functionally illiterate.

This is a thoughtful commentary. It is certainly true that there are a combination of factors. But the primary driver of the problem is unrestrained lending.

The quickest thing that could be done to help would be to simply repeal the law that says guaranteed student loans are exempted from bankruptcy protection. This law is, in and of itself, horribly unethical. By giving people a way out much of the ridiculous lending would rapidly start to dry up as banks and the government suddenly had to grapple with the risks associated with making these outrageous loans (which is the way it should be; making loans that the borrower cannot afford is called "usury" and it is immoral). This in turn would deflate the bubble in rising education costs.

Beyond this, though, the government and lenders need to start scrutinizing the rationales behind individual education loans. Saddling students with debt that far outstrips their earning potential makes no sense. Though nobody wants to say it, the reality is that if a student wants to study something that is unlikely to help them earn more than their high school diploma can, then that is something they should pay for themselves. Loaning them money to do it is, at best, giving them a false sense of security and, at worst, lying to them about what there chosen education path can provide.

Finally! Someone else besides me who gets it. I've been a financial aid administrator for 25 years and have been saying this exact thing, until DOE changes regulations, the nightmare will continue.

Yep just like housing two entire generations of people should simply @!$%# gold bricks since no jobs exist that pay enough to afford either and you geniuses think that all people somehow have the ability to live indefinitely without a house and without a good job. None of the fault goes to the bankers bribing appraisers to jack the price up as much as possible for 25 years and coerce borrowers into intentionally riskier loans. None of the blame goes to our greedy business leaders or politicians who axed bankruptcy while at the same time slashing wages and outsourcing all of our good jobs.

It would be a lot more helpful if you guys would simply post directions on how to @!$%# gold bricks than telling people with nowhere to live and no source of income that they should have waited another couple of decades to buy a house or go to school.