By Anna Schecter
Rock Center
Though Katie Holmes has not addressed reports that Scientology was a reason she split with Tom Cruise, a former Church of Scientology spokesman said some families, including his own, were torn apart when one spouse wanted to leave the religion.
“My wife, my son, my daughter, my mother….they disconnected from me. They will not communicate with me,” said Mike Rinder in an interview with Kate Snow airing on Thursday, July 12 at 10pm/9c on NBC's Rock Center with Brian Williams.
Rinder joined the church as a child in Australia and rose to be Scientology’s international spokesman before he left the church in 2007.
He said he had been unhappy inside the church for a long time, but was afraid to leave because he said the church encouraged members to cut ties with relatives who want to leave.
“Part of that environment is keeping track of how people think…it’s a crime to …think bad thoughts about what’s going on and people will turn you in. Even your spouse will turn you in or your children will turn you in and then you’ll be in trouble,” he said.
When he finally decided to leave, he said he called his wife of 31 years and their two children and asked them to join him.
“The first thing that I did was I contacted them and said, 'Okay, I'm done. I'm gone. I'm in Virginia. Please come and join me.' And the answer was, ‘F-you.’ Literally,” he said.
In addition to losing his family, Rinder said he has been harassed by the church, an assertion the church denies.
“They've had private investigators follow me for months and months and months, everywhere I went,” he said.
In 1998, Rinder was on the other side of the fence, defending Scientology in an interview with Dateline.
"There isn't and hasn't been any effort which has been taken to quote silence critics," said Rinder to Dateline in 1998.
Today, Rinder says he frequently lied to the public in his role as a church spokesman.
The Church of Scientology says it does not encourage members to cut ties with relatives who have left the church.
In a letter to NBC News, an attorney for the church wrote that Rinder is, “untrustworthy, unreliable and biased,” adding that he is a self-promoter who is using a tragic personal matter to forward his own anti-Scientology agenda. The church denies following or harassing Rinder after he left the church.
The church has said Rinder abandoned his wife and their two children and has accused him of being violent towards his ex-wife and other members of the church.
NBC News could not reach Rinder’s ex-wife for comment.
Rinder said at times he was violent towards some church members prior to his separation from the Church of Scientology, but said it was all part of the environment inside the church.
More from Rock Center:
Families question Scientology-linked rehab after recent deaths
Breaking Away: What is Scientology?
Breaking Away: What happens when a Scientologist leaves?
Tom Cruise's former Scientology auditor speaks about Cruise/Kidman Divorce
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How can the church of Scientology deny following and harassing Mr. Rinder after he left the church? There is video evidence of it on the internet. BBC Panorama's 2010 documentary "The Secrets of Scientology" has footage that shows private investigators following Mr. Rinder and reporter John Sweeney all the way to Mr. Rinder's home. It is on youtube for all to see !!!! So is John Sweeney's prior Scientology documentary *Scientology and Me* which shows disturbing footage of the reporter being followed and harassed while he made the documentary. Also on youtube for all to see...
But doesn't Scientology teach that it's only true if it's true for YOU? (How conveeeenient.)
at Councilo48 Isnt trhat what ALL religion does? You get your head filled with what you can and cannot do and here are the repercussions if you break said rules.. Like all religions, it's all a mind game to correct behavior.
Snow's report only scratched the surface on what is out on the internet, especially youtube. Everyone remotely interested should research Scientology themselves starting with the official Scientology website. It seems sane, logical and attractive. I understand the members don't learn about the alien god Xenu until the 3rd course. I'm not making that up. South Park was right! Listen to the interviews of former members and Hubbard's own decendants. Tom was smart to settle so quickly so that we'd talk about this a few weeks then forget about it. If there were a long custody battle, EVERYONE would know all there is about Scientology and it would likely mean the end for it. According to former members, the new buildings are largely empty and people are leaving the religion in droves.
What people aren't investigating too closely is a similar cult mainly based in Utah. For some reason, it is considered a taboo subject this year.
redwing... You obviously have a very skewered understanding of the vast majority of world religions out there. *sigh* You have the very same black and white think as many fundementalists. You can't see nuance. I know of few mainstream religions that require or even encourage family members to "cut off" anyone who leaves the religions - otherwise half of the US would be individuals with no families, since the average American will change their religious affiliation at least 3 times during their lives.
The only difference between a cult and a religion is number of followers.
Actually, iknow, the usual definition is that a cult does not survive the death of the founding family.
Elizabeth-1372999, Your comment makes you sound like an idiot. Are You?
You guys don't know what you are talking about. I was a Scientologist and I left the church because I don't agree with Hubbard and his views.
First of, the church does not ask your family to stop communicating with you unless you try to pry them out of the organization. At that time you are declared a suppressive and are regarded as an enemy and the church is really harsh on enemies. You attack the church, the church attacks you. That is the policy.
I left the church and no one follows me around. I'm not harassed by anyone and I communicate with some members of the church once in a while. But, if you join the church, just to be in the safe side, give them the money needed for the services you want at the moment. Once you leave getting money in your account back is next to impossible.
Scientology affect people like a drug. You get a natural high when you get audited. What's more, you feel better after getting the treatment and you become more capable. Part of the training is making you aware that you can't get this anywhere else and that if you leave you are out. So people in Scientology put a wall between themselves and anyone or anything that might take away that treatment from them.
Jibaro,
You said, "You attack the church, the church attacks you. That is the policy."
That sounds like a strange policy for an organized religion. Whatever happened to turning the other cheek?
Turning the cheek gets you abused. Hubbard believed that to handle a bully you had to kick his but. He gives you a story that supposedly happened to him when he was a kid. The story itself is not supported by historical fact according to "The Bare Face Messiah.", but he justifies his position with it. Fact is his strategy worked and his cult or religion survived persecution in the US. Of course, that's persecution according to Hubbard because he wasn't a very nice guy.
I was sympathetic until this:
I think the family had other reasons to cut ties.
"All institutions created by man, no matter how noble their original purpose, end in self-perpetuation". These are words written by Frank Herbert (Dune)...a FAR better science fiction writer than L. Ron Hubbard will ever be.
Scientology is a cult. Any religious institution that does not encourage openness and complete honesty amongst its members, is secretive and exclusive, encourages blind loyalty and seems to have a rigid hierarchy that allows for special privileges for members at the top of the organization...is a cult.
Scientology is a f*cked up charade that has no bearing on any legitimate new way of thinking. Go watch the South Park on it and you'll get about as honest a picture as you can of it.
Golden 707s....
Numbers in a "cult" don't matter, if it is strutured like a cult, it is a cult.
Jibaro - how long were you in Scientology? Not too long, I would surmise, as you sound a bit naive. You DO know that not everyone is important enough to them to have them followed, right? Yes, some things make you feel good and you do get benefits - in the beginning. But the things that work are based on what Hubbard plagiarized from others, nothing he researched or worked on himself.
journal journal - don't "think" without facts and make assumptions based on one paragraph.
About 25 years ago, I lived in So California & filled out a little pink form from a grocery store that said it was a 'personality test'. Nothing on this form hinted that it was Scientology. When they contacted me, I went to their building in the city of Orange to 'get my results'. They first took me in a little theater to see a film. Then they took me across the courtyard to speak to someone, where they talked to me about getting 'clear', and of course that involved buying stuff. Boy, are they salespeople! It almost seemed like a small school campus, and when I passed by a room that had a door open, there were people in there that were standing up and loudly praising and worshipping this somewhat large golden bust on a pedestal in the middle of the room of their 'leader' L. Ron Hubbard. That really creeped me out! I had to tell them repeatedly that I was not interested. For months I kept getting contacted by them and they kept trying to get me to come back. Now, about 25 YEARS later, I still get mail from them, sometimes 2 or 3 pieces per day. These aren't cheap little mailings, either. They are full color, good quality paper. Sometimes, I get a very, very large magazine. They found me after I got married and changed my name. They found me EVERY SINGLE TIME I have moved, and I have moved several times in the last few years, to other states, in fact. I now live in VA and they send me stuff. Last year they somehow got my phone number and called me to get me to join. I told them to stop contacting me, to take me off their mailing list and to just leave me alone. They said they would, and they never called me again, but I still get mail about 4 days a week, and like I said, sometimes more than one piece of mail in a day. I told my postal person that I wanted the mailings to stop because I felt like I was being stalked by them, but because they mail it Bulk Rate, they could not do this. THESE PEOPLE ARE CREEPY!! They should not be called a church because they are not. When you worship a person who only became famous because of writing a few books, there is nothing religious or spiritual about that. I do know that some countries do not give them a tax exemption, like they do here in the US, because they are not considered to be a religious organization. So, when I heard they were following Katie Holmes, I believed it! They are creepy and they are STALKERS!
Twurly Girl, given the unwanted mailings and bad experience, i can understand your feelings. I am a fomer member of the Scientology church. The fact is, the official written policy within the church is that any person who requests to be taken off the mailing, is supposed to be removed right away and never mailed to again. This only makes sense as its a waste of money to mail expensive promo to someone who hates it. However, the people in the mailings department are under tremendous pressure from upper mngmt to mail to an ever larger list, so despite policy, they are relunctant to remove names. I dont agree with you on wether its a religion or not. The current church is not acting as a real church and i have no problem with it losing ist IRS exception. However, if they were actually operating according to the actual tenets of the religion and focusing on helping people on their own terms, instead of focusing on making money to the exclusion of actual spirtuality and human decency, then they would not alienate decent people like you and they would deserve their official status as a religion.
The German government does not recognize Scientology as a religion. It views it as an abusive business masquerading as a religion and believes that it pursues political goals that conflict with the values enshrined in the German constitution. This stance has been criticized, most notably by the U.S. government, which recognizes Scientology as a religion and has repeatedly raised concerns over discriminatory practices directed at individual Scientologists.
Scientologists in Germany face specific political and economic restrictions. They are barred from membership in major political parties and employers use so-called "sect filters" to expose a job applicant's association with the organization. German federal and state interior ministers started a process aimed at banning Scientology in late 2007, but abandoned the initiative a year later, finding insufficient legal grounds. Despite this, polls suggest that most Germans favour banning Scientology altogether.
If corporations can be reclassified as people, maybe churches/religious organizations can be re-classified as corporations/people, and we can tax them accordingly, especially that churches exercise "free speech" in the political realm, just as corporations now can do. It seems that the interpretations of various parts of the constitution gives all religious organizations too much sway in the political arena. Maybe a new ammendment?
I do believe that Tom Cruise had problems filming Valkarie because of that.
I thought that there were a few governments that outright consider Scientology a cult, Germany being of them. I completely agree with them. But then, I also think pretty much all organized religion is a cult.
twurly----I suggest you do a couple of things-----first send a snail mail letter to the office the tracts are sent from. Send it return receipt requested etc and cc a notarized copy to your atty or other official. The letter should state formally you want off their mailing list NOW.
Next notify authorities----it is a federal offense to stalk via the U. S. mail---Start with your Post Master / Mistress and move on to the FBI.
Lastly----keep as proof what ever you receive AFTER you have done the above.
Eventually you will be able to send it BACK to them COD which will make you very happy.
The best way to control people is through religion. L. ron hubbard was a genius. Look at how much money and power churches have through out the world. It's almost as if a high end retail store invented this religion.
@ Specialist Torres: I don't necessarily think he was a genius; I just think that he was shameless and would do anything to make a profit off other people.
If I recall correctly, he has a history of fraud, making wild lies his supposed accomplishments and was massively abusive towards the scientology members themselves. People like that tend to be in it for themselves; he just found an easy lie to tell that would get him what he wanted. His original idea was to sell non-sense self help books rebranded as an alternative form of medicine until he was sued for malpractice.
Then to keep selling his BS, he and his lawyer decided to file for religious protection on the premise it would give him everything he wanted and simultaneously make his organization tax exempt.
I don't think it takes a genius to do that. I just think you need to have absolutely no qualms about being a serial liar and fraud that most people can easily identify. Some people, on the other hand, won't be as lucky.
This is how they are allowed to say they have 10 million members- they are counting people like you! As long as they can mail you stuff, they can count you as a member. They are probably doing that to 9,990,000 people. Some people have said the number of Scientologists is actually closer to 10,000.
@Freedman1 - While I'm not a fan of Scientology and do believe it is probably a business masquerading as a religion I disagree with Germany's way of discriminating against Scientologists.
"Scientologists in Germany face specific political and economic restrictions. They are barred from membership in major political parties and employers use so-called "sect filters" to expose a job applicant's association with the organization."
This sounds remarkably similar to what Germans did approximately 70 years ago to another religious sect with whom they disagreed. While I don't foresee this discrimination reaching those proportions, it seems like the first step onto a slippery slope.
Arent all religions started by fiction writers? Disconnected from reality. No objective evidence. Only one, unverifiable source of "truth." Supported by legions of fanatics. Financed by merchandising. Always tearing down the previous fictions and/or rewriting them. Christianity 4: the wrath of hubberd. :)
@Beth : "Tom Cruise had trouble with valkrie filming..."
Too bad they didn't give him more trouble- that movie was AWFUL!!!!!!!!
In terms of telling if Scientology is a cult or not, there is a well made evaluation form that a guy made (a ceremonial magician!) that can be filled out on various attributes of a religion with a score added up at the end. It seems to be a well made format. It basically charts how much control over a person life is asked for. It's called The Bonewits' Cult Danger Evaluation Scale. You can google for it. It's on many different sites.
Thanks, Bullwhip. I ran my own spiritual connection through the form and came up not-a-cult. I knew that anyway, but it was fun. The main thing is that I could never be part of a top-down, hierarchical system that tells me the "proper" way to relate to my innermost "Self." It's like someone telling you what you "should" feel about your husband or child. The sacred "I-Thou" relationship is private and personal, and does not cost a dime.
It seems to me that a feature of many cults, is that by joining either you become one of the elect, or you are guaranteed to gain mastery (either over yourself, over others or over your fate). So you get to feel special and powerful. I suppose this is for people who, deep inside, do not feel special or powerful naturally. I would feel sorry for them if they weren't trying to exercise their mastery and power over me, especially through some political process, where their ethical and moral opinions can become law.
Hey I think the Germans have learned something!
Yes, that magic, politics, and religion are three different things, not to be brought together in the same space, like matter and anti-matter.
I'm not trying to blame Katie here, but don't you think someone should be confortable with and fully understand their significant other's "religous beliefs" BEFORE you marry them? My parents had no issues with their marriage and they were of different faiths. Neither one tried to force the other to convert, nor did they force me to choose. I was raised with both sets of religious beliefs, although both are similar and don't have many conflicts with each other.
How are you supposed to understand that "religion" when they won't tell you anything about it without charging you an arm and a leg? Do you think Tom was going to volunteer that he believed alien ghosts are the source of all human problems?
That's what mature and smart people do.
And no one ever lies to their spouse about their beliefs or anything else before they are married....come on, happens every day. An honest man would have laid it all out, and she would have run the other way, so he soft pedaled it until she had the ring on....
So the big complaint is they charge people a lot of money? What church doesn't?
Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses....it's all financed by voluntary donations...no collection plates ever passed! I love MY faith!
This notion that mainstream religions "charge people" is something that I just don't understand. While I am not religious myself, my parents were and took me to church regularly. I've also been to services of other denominations with friends on occasion. I've never seen anybody standing at the door demanding that one pay admission. There is generally a collection of some kind, but it is entirely voluntary and no records are kept of who donated and who did not.
My Mom's parents were of different religions. My Grandma was raised Mormon. My Grandpa was raised Lutheran. both were stubborn and demanded raising their children in their own Churches. So early sunday morning, the whole family went to the Lutheran church. Then the whole family went to the Mormon Church. But since my grandfather was German, if they had a party for a celebration, they had to go back to the Lutheran church because they had beer. LOL. My Mom knows a lot about both religions, and by the time I came along, she hadn't been in either Church in years.
I was a Jehovah's Witness. They shun those that leave the church, vehemently oppose any facts you give concerning evolution, believe the earth is 6000 years old, oppose recieving blood transfusions even to save a life, knock on your door month after month preaching the "truth" even after you've told them to f-off.
It's a cult. Like the rest. And just as wrong.
Double post. Damn faulty comment section...
Scientology is not like other religions. Once you join there are ethical rules you must abide by. You are taught that your actions have consequences, and they do, and you learn that a good Ethical Officer can spot ethical violations by the behavior of the person who commits the violation. Once spotted the violator must go through a corrective process.
If you are an advanced member of the religion you will not stablish repermanent relations with anybody unless that person goes to the church and becomes a member. Scientologists know that relating with people who do not belong to the church is very difficult and doomed to failure because the treatments cause change on the person that receives it and a time will come when that person would outgrow his mate.
I got news for ya Clarke, Mormons keep track of your "tithing" and if you're not keeping up, the bishop leans on ya to pay up. It became a big problem for disabled sister.
I grew up Catholic and while donations were entirely voluntary, my dad had a box of little envelopes (sorta like a deposit envelope) that the donation would go into, that he would fill out each Sunday with his name and the amount of his donation. When the church wanted to add a new building, they asked all members to commit to donating a certain dollar amount toward the building, then allowed them to send in monthly payments. When he passed away, he still had 1 or 2 more payments left to make (and since he had committed to making them, I went ahead and paid the last 2 installments for him). They definitely keep track of what you are donating and (even though I'm not a member of any church) I believe that if you are a member you should donate if you are able and hopefully you get what you need from your religion and they have extra money to help those in need who can't afford a weekly donation.
These most recently invented religions are pretty creepy.
One is a tax write-off/pyramid scheme (scientology), and the other is for men who want to have sex with a lot of little girls (mormon).
They are both very secretive and cult like. Well... more so than most others.
.
Mom! Tom Cruise won't come out of the closet!
I don't understand why any new people join Scientology, with all the bad press it's always gotten. I know other cults (like Heaven's Gate or the Moonies) bring you in to like, a facility or something and don't feed you enough protein so that eventually, you can't think clearly or question them. But with Scientology, you go back to your house at night, what are people thinking getting in to this?
I did my own research because I felt a little sorry for Tom when Katie left. I thought Scientology was harmless even though the members believed in alien gods. Start with the official Scientology website. It looks great! Then go to YouTube and watch interviews from former high ranking members and BBC documentaries. Watch the Tom Cruise Scientology video (really creepy). Scientology looks glamorous at first and if big celebrities are doing it, it must be legitimate. This RockCenter article only scratched the surface of all the information that is available on the internet.
The Moonies tried to get me with a book-which they wanted back as soon as they figured out I wasn't buying in.....
People in the modern world are sometimes feeling like they are missing something, lacking something. Religions give you some semblance of normalcy. If you are trying to fix things in your life, Scientology would be one of the groups that would seem to have something that you lack. That's why the Moonies, the Pentacostals, the Jim Jones group in Guyana drew people in to their group. If it appears to fill that empty spot, it feels good. But simply, after you feel like you have what you need, its easy to look around and think, what in the heck am I doing here?
Religion fills in the gaps for people who cant handle uncertainty. Even a crazy answer is better than no answer for these people. With the child-like minds of this crowd, fairly tales have a natural audience.
People join Scientology because it works. They walk into the church, they talk to a counselor and they begin to feel better. Once the counselor finishes with you, your hopes are so high that you tolerate the person in charge of selling you courses and the person who sell you books. Believe me, they are hard to tolerate.
Once you go through your first auditing you get a taste of what the future holds, same with the courses that teaches you how to handle life. The truth about Hubbard is not so obvious, by the time you should realize that he has taken over your way of thinking, it's usually too late.
@Willow...that's exactly how I felt about 12 years ago. I went back to church because I felt something was missing. What was missing in my life was feeling loved by someone (not in a sexual way, but in my marriage). A lot of things were wrong in my life (ex, ex's wife, you name it) and I wanted to fill a void as you put it. At first it was just great. My kids were old enough to join the youth program, which they loved. I helped out everywhere I could; nursery, kitchen, youth chaparone. Then we got a new pastor. At first it was all good. He was younger than the previous pastor, we started a new service (with a band no less!)to attract younger members. I loved it. You know what happened next. It happens all the time. They start these new programs, need more money. Half the people who worked in the church were related either to each other or half the congregation. You start to wonder if what you put in the collection plate goes to salaries or programs or whatever. It all started looking too corporate to me. Add to that I started hearing about churches spouting their political views and that did it for me. I'm a firm believer in separation of church and state, and to me the church was slowly creeping into state affairs. Now more and more, I have distanced myself from my church. I still miss some of the people but I'm glad I moved.
@Jibaro,
I agree with you. What Scientology essentially is is a series of self-help techniques. They appear to work for people and I think it could have been a great business just as that but it seems Hubbard got the idea of making it a religion as well.
It's like if somebody took psychoanalysis or hypnosis or any other helpful therapy and clouded it with extra mystical attributes to make it more profitable.
I know many people who have joined churches because they felt they were missing something in life, or were dealing with a difficult time. One of our very good friends was struggling with an addiction and his counselor told him that meny people in his position needed something to believe in, such as religion, that could give them support. This guy has a disabled, alcoholic wife, who is very bitter about her own life and he felt that religion was his only anchor. The problem I have with him and his religion is he only seems to be in it for what he can get out of it. He started posting derogatory comments and thoughts that these people deserve bad stuff on FB about groups of people he doesn't like (who are struggling and just trying to make their own way). I am not religious, but definitely feel that all people and especially religions are suppose to help those less fortunate. I always have to reply to his comments that his attitude seems to contradict his religious beliefs (and he always posts stuff about that too).
As a former Scientologist, I also have been "found" by the church after several moves. I got lots of mail from it too. However, I solved my problem to the extent that they have not contacted me by mail or telephone for many years now.
My method was bassiclly to counter attack and cause them to invoke their own policies. My system works like this: When called, as soon as the caller identifies himself or herself as a Scientologist, begin speaking in a loud voice and tell the caller that if he or she values his or her life and wants to keep his or her possessions then he or she better just get up out of the chair in which he or she is sitting and walk out the door, out the building and not tell anyone where he or she is going but just get the hell away and never look back.
Some callers would ask why so I'd tell them, again in a loud voice, that they were being duped by a cult that was the exceedingly clever creation of a man who just might be the consumate conman of the 20th and 21st centuries: L. Ron Hubbard. If the caller attempted to get back on purpose, I'd interrupt with pretty much the same warning about getting away while he or she still could. If the caller persisted further, I tell them they were not hearing me and that I knew of what I was speaking and I'd repeat my warning.
When the caller became aware that he or she was not going to prevail no matter how expertly he or she applied the TRs (Training Routines designed to enable a person to prevail in their purpose no matter the resistance offerred.), the call was terminated. I suspect that after the last call I was declared PTS (Potential Trouble Source). Official policy is to disconnect from anyone who is such a sourch of trouble.
For those being pestered by the Church of Scientology who want to be rid of it, give this a try...and have fun doing it. Not only will you be doing yourself a favor, but you might be saving the caller from wasting years and thousands of dollars.
I have met and worked with several ex Scientoligists, One one part of their RPF squd. He was raised in the church. But after years of following the rules, the church turned on him, and, he became a target himself and was put in the detention area out in Hemmit California. He had to escape during the night , picked up out side the barbed wire detention wall, by his mother. He was the nicest most decent guy but clearly still rattled by the experiene even after a few years. He has since moved out of state and remains in semi hiding from these people.
an individual capable of free thought can be an atheist, satanist, or whatever...are you going to be doing an investigation on your neighbor because he doesn't share your beliefs? Individuals are in their own control as to how they percieve themselves to other...As long as I can get along with my neighbor, I dont care what religion he is unless he tries to impose it on me. I dont care if he sits naked in a folding chair repeating Kumbya lyrics, just dont force it on me...Are you listening Morman's and Jehovah's Witnesses? Want to save me some money, let the Jehovah's Witnesses deliver my mail!
redwingnut06 -
you wrote: "...As long as I can get along with my neighbor, I dont care what religion he is unless he tries to impose it on me. I dont care if he sits naked in a folding chair repeating Kumbya lyrics, just dont force it on me"
That is just it. Scientologists will impose and force the religion on anybody who might leave the smallest faintest hint of an opening for a conversation with you. I, too, was suckered into the personality test, and I was not leaving this booth without having heard about the wonderful things that Scientology would do for my life and how I just needed to buy this book so I could have clarity as to why my life sucked until that moment. I was not about to buy the book. Any religion that is advertising and selling at a Trade Show is not one I want to belong to. I eventually had to tell them that I WAS in fact INTERESTED, but didn't have any spare money to buy the book, at which time they gave me the book for free but insisted I make an appointment to visit their church. I feel awful for the person who owns the number I used on my form, because those scientologists are relentless.
Anyhow - I would add Scientologists to your list of who not to answer the door for, with the Witnesses and Mormons. I really don't like ANY salespeople at my door, but door-to-door gospel marketing is too much if you ask me.
I used Mormon's and Jehovahs' Witness as an example..Bottom line I was trying to make is that I am a free-thinking adult who will not bow down to any religion..So does being catholic and allowing all these priests to molest children persuade one to leave the religion, or does that make them an accomplice (See Sandusky criminal charges).. Also, why is it that catholic priests teach to their congregation to "bear fruiit and multiply" that they themselves have to take a vow of celebicy and not get married? Hmmm..offly suspisious to me......Like the BBC comedy Mrs. Brown's Boys confronts to their priest...dont play the game if you dont want to follow the rules.
Catholic priests use to get married 1,000 years ago, but the kids were inheriting the church property so that had to stop.
LOL @ redwingnut06. I agree. I wasn't knocking you. Just saying just in case you haven't encountered these fanatics before....beware. :)
I heard too, that Catholic priests were married and of course, divorce was not allowed. A Pope wanted to divorce his wife, for whatever reason, so he decreed that Priests should not be married anymore. so that';s when Martin Luther nailed his Lutheran demands on the door of the Church. Then poof, they were all divorced. But many priests were unhappy with it.
Regulator has it right. Bishops and cardinals were passing their church psn and power to their kids and people were more loyal to their family dynasties than to the pope. Afterall, the church is just another self-serving power structure.
btcoates - I don't think it is a matter of understanding the significant other's religion as much as what you said later about your parents have no issues with other's faith.
From everything there is to read and discern, it sounds like Mr. Cruise never respected Ms. Holmes's beliefs. It also sounds if Ms. Holmes has some genuine concerns about the child being raised and educated in the religion after meeting the older Cruise children. It is unfortunate that she felt she has leave under such secrecy. That is the way in which spouse who have been abused leave a marriage.
His family doesn't speak to him because they are part of a cult. If it was a true religion, they would not behave that way.
All religions have some kind of punishment for the "fallen." Catholics cant take communion, amish wont speak to them, muslims kill them, etc.
Does Scientology believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He died for our sins so we would have eternal life when we died? I didn't think so.
Scientology takes no "official" position on the existence of God or the tenets of other religions.
However, they, like other religions think their own way is right and the way of other religions are not necessarily wrong but less effective. Scientology markets itself as the world's only workable technology.
Some would say that the "Jesus being the Son of God" thing was a crock. I happen to be one of them. However, I respect your right to believe in whatever you believe. I have no problems with any faith, belief system, or organized religion that practices without oppressing others or their own followers. Scientology is a crock of crap and has been documented time and time again regarding the oppressive nature of that organization. They pray on the weak and those looking to belong to something greater than themselves. Shameful. Just plain shameful.
The difference here is how much do you make financially versus what you do?...Are you a public figure? If not, then do you have that type of income...It just goes to show that power and influence can change the political and public opinion..I, on the other hand, am free-thinking and personally despise any celebrity figure to put themselves in a position to try to sway public opinion, (aka Sarah Jessica Parker's horseface hosting a dinner for President Obama.) So, I am suppose to be blinded like sheep to follow their opinion of a political party member because I am a fan of the celeb? Screw that!
Jews do not even believe in Jesus..Now God they believe in,,,It was the Jews who crucified Jesus in the first place.
Of course Jews believe in Jesus! They believe he was a Jew! Duh!
Really, Jesus did say we were all the children of God. That everyone was our brothers and sisters. That God was our Father. Isn't that why we say "Our Father which art in heaven..."
So therefore Jesus was the son of god. By necessity so was Caesar and everyone else.
According to L. Ron Hubbard, Jesus is a delusion caused by the alien R6 mind control implant.
No, really.
Given the beliefs of the average Christian, Eddievroom, that's a more palatable idea than the fact that half of America believes that humanity magically poofed into existence 10,000 years ago.
The fact is, the greatest thing about Scientology is that it brings forth the ever present fact that the majority of people lack any introspection whatsoever and will gladly mock absurdities other people believe, while deluding themselves theirs aren't absurd. All you need to do is look at creationists to understand how people can honestly believe insane things, while not understanding the mockery they receive. It's not a Scientology problem, it's a human problem.
Redwingnut: The Jews did not have any authority to crucify Jesus or anyone else during the Roman occupation. It was the Romans that ordered the crucifiction - or, as Sheldon Kopp liked to say, "it wasn't the Jews, it was the Italians that killed Christ."
While on the subject of beliefs though, you might want to look at other cults too: Mormons believe in three distinct gods. Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe that Jesus is divine. There are thousands of opinions out there, and some are oppressive towards others. The modern (19th to 20th century) cults often have different official histories than their real histories.
Elizabeth said:
"Mormons believe in three distinct gods."
That is a false statement.
I do not know enough about JW to say if her comment about them is true, mostly because they haven't been making the rounds here lately...
Jehovah's Witnesses believe exactly what Jesus said about himself - he is God's son. The trinity doctrine was a pagan belief that crept into Christianity in the early fourth century AD and is NOT supported by scripture when you dig into the original languages of the Bible. For example, John 1:1 is commonly translated in Bibles produced by Trinitarian religions as "the Word was God", however in the original Greek the final instance of theos did not have a definite article before it, so it could rightly be translated "a god" "godlike" "divine" as it is in several independant translations of the scriptures.
Another agregious mistranslation of Bible text to fit a Trinitarian view is Philipians 2:6 which is commonly translated that Jesus "thought it not robbery to be equal to God". However, if you look at the context, this makes no sense. The entire point of verses 1-5 was the need to have a lowly, humble attitude and NOT exalt ones self above others. In verser 7, it continues to show how Jesus humbled himself and took the form of a human to come to earth and die for our sins. Then in verse 9, it describes how God (a separate superior entity to Jesus) exalted him to a high position because of his obedience.
Now, turning attention to the idea of 20th century "cults" - here is the question many have a hard time answering. What is a cult? This is a label often slapped on religions that people do not like. (In the same sense that Communist and Socialist is used in political rhetoric today.) Christianity was called a cult and a sect in the first century by Jewish opposers who did not like them. If you are referring to unorthodox belief, the Bible will be the judge of this. Just because a lot of people believe something (like the trinity) doesnt make it right. Also, if you are referring to those who separate themselves from society, I think that you will find that Jehovah's Witnesses are very much tightly integrated with society - we are people you work with, shop with, drive with, etc. If you are referring to a group who has a human cult leader, who exactly is the leader of Jehovah's Witnesses? Charles Russel has been dead for close to a century, and there have been many refinements to our core beliefs since then. I follow no one but Jehovah God and his son Jesus Christ.
As far as some secret history of Jehovah's Witnesses, I am sure you could cough up a bunch of links to web sites of bitter former believers that charge all sorts of things. I am aware of what took place in 1914 as well as 1975, and I am aware that I am dealing with an imperfect organization. Christianity in the first century had some bumps in the road too - the whole circumcision issue that it took decades for Christians to get the proper view on. Peter was afraid to associate with Gentile Christians because he thought it would make him look bad. It wasnt until Paul called him out on it in front of the congregation that he changed his own view.
At the end of the day, I believe what I believe because I have read and studied the scriptures FOR MYSELF, and the explanation of the scriptures that Jehovah's Witnesses have put forth makes sense to me. Say what you will about the organization or whatever happened in the past. You will never convince me that God is a trinity, that there is a burning hellfire, that we have an immortal soul that survives death, and that the earth will not be a paradise where humanity will finally live in the peace and perfection that God intended from the beginning.
Furthermore, I know of no other organization that has the type of deep love that transcends national and racial boundaries like Jehovah's Witnesses. Jewish people and Arabs meet in congregations in Jerusalem freely. Hutu and Tutsi died to protect one another in the genocide of Rawanda. In the US, you will find no other church where black people and white people integrate so freely.
Finally, with this love in mind, show me another organization that is doing as much to fulfill Matthew 24:14. I am not talking about a couple of missionaries that start a colony of rice Christians. I am not talking about a couple of 20-something "elders" doing a youth mission and then retiring to a secular life. Jehovah's Witnesses are in every country on the face of this earth, preaching the good news. Unless you can show me another organization that is doing as much to fulfill Matthew 24:14 and Matthew 28:19, 20 AND that is teaching the truth of God's word about the trinity, hellfire, the soul, etc, we have nothing to talk about.
Go spread your hate somewhere else. I am not interested. (Door closes.)
I am a Christian myself, and I know several people that are Jehovah's Witness. I do not know enough about the religion to judge it anymore than I know about some other religions. So I will not criticize you for your belief. What I would like to say is that I respect you VERY much for standing up for your belief. I respect the fact that you spoke what was on your mind and did so without cutting anyone else down. I also have to say I have the utmost respect for the one's that go from door to door, in all kind of weather, to spread the Word. You are absolutely right that spreading the Gospel from one end of the earth to the other is something that nobody can accuse Jehovah's Witnesses of not doing. So many people get so aggravated in the disturbance. Maybe a football game is interupted. Or a favorite TV show that is full of horrible death and sex. Maybe even a family get together. But it doesn't take too much to be polite, say you are busy and take the literature. Even if you don't agree with the people at the door, there is no reason to be hateful. Love One Another. A brief interuption in something in someone's day to day life, is only going to be a hiccup when it comes to Eternity.
Best post I have seen. Thank you for sharing. And the people that do not agree, do not have to be hateful about it.
Let go and let God. Thank you again!
According to Hubbard, Jesus was an advance spirit, not divine, not the son of God. A leader that tried to give us mastery over our existence but failed because he did not leave a written record of his teachings, all we have is the Bible.
He, Hubbard, did not seem to believe in God but he talked about a Theta line. That is the source of us, we broke away from it.
Horus was the Son of God 5000 yrs earlier. Jesus is just a sequel. The 10 commandments come from the Egyptian Book of the Dead-- chapter 125, circa 3500BC. Sargon was the lawgiver a couple 100 yrs before Moses. The Great Flood is a redux of Gilgamesh circa 2700BC. Its all the same old pagan stories redone.
Will... your comments tell me you have been brainwashed. Even your comment sounds like it came straight from a Watchtower or Awake!...
I was raised a JW. Get out while you can. It's a cult.
I think Tom is so adamant about Scientology, and he has risen to be the almost "leader of the pack" because they have all the old fun house mirrors from Riverview and the little creep thinks he is actually 5 feet 6 inches tall. They have an extra teeny mirror in his bathroom for him too.
Tom is an ass...He jumps on Oprah's couch and then he threatens Comedy Central that if they show the South Park Episode "Out of the closet" that depicts him as a closet homosexual he will not promote his new movie, Mission Impossible: 3 that should tell you something...Because when that episode was suppose air, the network changed it to a rerun episode so that they could run the ads on TV of said movie...Yeah, like an ad for a movie with Tom Cruise in it would influence me to go!!!! Dumbass!!
Funny thing, Isaac Hayes (Chef's voice) quit South Park after the show poked fun at Scientology, but Hayes, Cruise, and other celebrities never raised a peep about the show making fun of Christianity and other major religions.
I'm curious. The Church of Scientology sports a cross on their buildings. What's up with that? I wasn't aware of any Scientologists who were crucified. I don't get it.
Exactly Russell, Isaac Hayes quit because they were to make fun of Scientology, to which Mr. Hayes belongs. But hell, he never complained once about when they made fun of any other religion...IF this were the case, then why doesn't he return his paychecks? Hypocrites all the way around.
Russell, we call that the "double cross" (look closely).
If you really want your mind blown, drive through their compound near Hemet, CA. There's a chapel near the highway with a large and very impressive stained glass window -- designed to be viewed from the road, rather than by people inside. It's there purely for "image".
I'm told the building is actually used as a storeroom.
L. Ron himself openly wrote that if one had the desire to control money, and by default, the world; that forming a religion would be an effective method for doing so.
In fairness, I have no desire to poke the Bear with a Stick. I'm just saying. A religion, or even in the most gross interpretation of theology that could be rendered, is important to those that believe the rhetoric. I may be an unenlightened buffoon, but you can call me that while I travel in my own personal jet. Tom's no environmentalist. Don't care what @!$%#ing media aspect he's trying to ply. He's got a personal jet. And he's a little too @!$%#ing busy to recycle.
Hard hitting?!? You bet. True. Once again, you bet.
I was in Scientology but I don't remember why the cross is used. Maybe it's because Christian religions dominate the US and the cross is a familiar sign trusted by most people.
As far as Tom is concerned if I were Kate I would not worry too much. Tom is just going to blindly follow the instructions his religion is going to give him. They will tell him he has to cut all ties with Kate. When his daughter is old enough to turn away from Scientology and reject it, Tom will again blindly follow the instructions of his religion and cut all ties from his daughter.
However, as far as Scientology is concerned I would worry if I were Kate. That bunch of weirdos won't be satisfied enough if Tom cuts himself off from her. I fear for Kate's safety if she publicly says anything against that so called religion.
I'm thinking that's why the divorce and custody went through so smoothly. Its all done. I bet they have an agreement, she keeps her mouth shut and they leave her alone. they don't really care about Suri, she would just be another customer. They are protecting TC , but don't really care about any child.
Yep, Willow, I think you hit the nail on the head. I said the same thing the minute I read that Nicole had said about herself that she was still a "good little Catholic girl," after being in Scn. for years. I said, 'Well, there goes THAT marriage!' Weeks later, they announced their separation. You are not allowed to EVER put another religion (or anything else) above Scientology, EVER.
(a former cult member)
This entire matter is nothing more than female centric, madhouse social engineering. We're tired of celebrating women 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. I am 'Katied OUT". She's divorced, big freaking deal. Tom is now a happy man.
You're right rockofages! I hate women too. Let's go out.
xoxoxo,
Bill
Yes, now he's free to hook up w John Travolta and live happily ever after......
Tom Cruise is far from happy. He is bat@!$%# crazy. I'm happy for Katie. I imagine John and Tom will have a blast recreating Grease together, and John can finally flip roles and be the girl he always wanted to be.
This is only news because it is between Katie and Tom...How many other celebs have been involved in this cult and have it never been reported? F***ing MSNBC and their bandwagonism ( I know it's not a word so back off you grammatical Nazis.)
Its a word if people understand your meaning-- and I think we do. :)
They are replaced by evil clones...
Isn't Scientology like the Mormons? Mormon believe in Joseph Smith and the Scientology believe in L. Ron Hubbard. They are both Cult oriented. Someone leaves the Mormon church they are called an Apostate and cut off from their families just like Scientology. "Evangelical Christians should not vote for Mitt Romney because he's a Mormon, therefore not a real Christian," Robert Jeffress, Pastor of First Baptist Church in Dallas.
According to Mormon's, Brigham Young was considered a prophet because Joseph Smith supposedly got a vision to read and translate these tablets...@!$%#, even Hansel and Gretel saw the Gingerbread house after they ate the mushrooms!! I dare you ask a Mormon about Joseph Smith licking a salamander's ass when he got his hallucination! I was stationed in Utah for 8 1/2 years.
There's a lot more about Mormonism than you mention. They believe in three distinct gods, not unified. Their official history is very different than where Joseph Smith actually was in the years he said he had the visions, and so on. We have a friend who left that church. He was not allowed to attend the wedding of his daughter, because non-believers are not allowed in the building; it is a totally exclusive cult. Mitt Romney was much higher in that religion than he now claims; all this is public.
If he is elected, it will interesting to see how the LDS runs the government. As Romney said " I am a Mormon First, and an American Second.
RighteousCrusader,
Mormons, whether people WANT to believe it or not, believe God is our Father, Jesus is his Son (and our Savior), and Joseph Smith is a prophet; a modern day Moses, if you will. The cult issue is debatable, but from what I know about Scientology (little) they are not alike at all. I have first hand knowledge of a Mormon family that had 2 children that ended up in prison and they were NOT cut off from their family; in fact it was just the opposite and their family did everything in their power to help them.
Elizabeth,
While it is true that non-members are not permitted in the temples for weddings, they ARE in fact permitted, even welcomed, to visit the church buildings. If a couple decides they want their wedding to be performed in a church building vs. a temple, anyone and everyone is welcome. I have attended such weddings, and I was told the reason this is so regarding the temples is because they are sacred to that faith. As you may or may not know, after the construction of a temple is completed, everyone in the community is welcome to tour the temple inside for a specified period of time. After that, the building is consecrated (dedicated) and from that point on, you must be a member to go inside. I don't get the "3 distinct god" comment unless you are referring to the belief they hold that God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit are 3 separate beings/entities, rather than interconnected as the Holy Trinity.
I don't mind if people disagree with a certain set of beliefs, but to throw misinformation out there willy-nilly is unhelpful.
The Catholics do the same. My Dad 's construction company built a large round chapel for the Catholic Church. My parents went to the dedication of the building, they had incense, Bishops, Archbishops, etc. there (my Mom said they told the best jokes). After the dedication, the Chapel part was open to everyone, but the rest of it was Catholic and cut off from public view.
To paraphrase Red Dwarf, same god, different colored hats.
Willow, you clearly know not of what you speak. All Catholic churches are open to all people. The only "ban" you might run into is that Catholics request that non-Catholics refrain from taking communion.
I do not care what everyone thinks, but ALL religion is a cult..It depends on the limit that the church goes to to recruit members. If you are catholic, protestant, episcopalian, or whatever religion you follow, it is all a mind game, because if there wasn't there would not be as many religions as there are..,..The Ten Commandments are very vague...When it says, "Thou shalt be no other God's before me! Now, this is ambiguous because of the term "GOD" If you value money or prosperity or power, then that becomes your God..The Bible has NEVER said or defined who or what God is.
So, a heroin addict sees his god as the drug and his son as the needle....a crackhead's god is the crack...So, God is whatever an individual deems to be their most important thing in life...It's all relative
It's really a shame that you have absolutely no understanding about which you speak. To say that the Bible has never said or defined who or what God is, is itself a statement of complete ignorance.
Let me put it this way. If I'm wrong, I have lost nothing. If you're wrong, you've lost everything.
Re: Bob
It's called Pascal's Wager...and it was a bad apologetic when Blaise Pascal first formulated it in the 17th c.
What happens to you if you face Allah after you die? Ganeesh? Jove? Odin? Quetzalcoatl? The Great Spirit? ElRon Hubbard?
Even if Chrisitianity is the right choice, there are currently 20,000 to 30,000 Christian sects, most saying the adherents to the others are destined for a rip roaring time in the flames. What happens when you choose one of the wrong ones?
Even then, you're basing your belief on fear and a bet. What happens when your god finds you've been brown nosing him.
Bob, We have all heard of Pascal's wager. It was lame and hollow 400 years ago and it is lame and hollow today. Just ask yourself what your fate will be if The One True God (tm) turns out to be Allah and you have been actively worshiping a false god all these years. Or maybe the real god is the Babylonian god Marduk and everybody that has ever lived for the last 3700 years is well and truly screwed since nobody worships him any more. Maybe you should get busy worshiping every god that is being or ever has been worshipped just to make sure that cover all the bases. But then again is an all knowing being really going to be fooled by your little games of belief. So I guess you just better hope that out of the thousands of gods that have ever been worshiped that you have picked the right one.
Bob ISC, Your last line sounds pretty fear-based, just f.y.i. (don't know if anyone's ever put it to you that way before).
So, there are some very irrational people who worship the Greek letter Pi.
I think most of the arguments though are how oppressive some people make their religion. "Res ligio," the thing you are tied to, really should be love. If you use the Bible as your guide, it says "God is love." That covers all bases too, except maybe that Pi in the sky (how many decimal places are they up to in base 2?)
I like the dali lama's angle on reincarnation. If its true, he's safe. If its not, who cares, he's dead.
It is a cult just like the Mormons!
You mean, it is a cult like any other religion. Critics may make fun of the Scientology belief in aliens, but many of those sample people go around praying to an invisible, all-knowing, all-powerful being whose existence has never been proven. Does that really make any more sense?
All religions are retellings of old pagan zodiac stories. In the age of taurus, religions worshiped bulls-- minos, etc. Around 2150BC, the age or Aries came in, led by the Moses, destroyed the Golden Calf (bull?) and that's why jews blow rams' horns. In 1AD, the age of pisces came in, led by jesus and that's why we have jesus fish on our cars. You can line up all the major stories for each Age and they map very nicely. Virgin birth, Dec 25, Star in the East, 3 kings, crucifixion, resurection after 3 days, 12 apostles, various nicknames, circle and cross, etc. They go back to the zodiac. Meet the new boss; same as the old boss.
one site explains a lot theunfunnytruth.ytmnd.com
EVERY religion is a cult!! It all depends on what you want to believe..I hate it when I hear people denounce the devil Now, I am not a satanist or anything.,.I grew up Lutheran Church Missouri Synod and have been in hand bells, the chior, and acolyte, etc...But people do not want to acknowledge the Devil...Well, you cannot have the good without the bad.,,.If the Devil didn't exist, then why the need for a God? It's all symbolism.
I mean no offense, but I'm reminded of "The Towering Inferno" and the faulty wiring, "It rings bells, doesn't it?" (Ducking and running...)
I apologize. However, the dualism that was brought into Christianity by Augustine (a not-so-former Manichean) and Calvin undermined the idea of free will. In their concepts, evil became such a strong force that it seemed as though it was almost impossible to decide to be good, but in a reverse sense, those who could not be good and prosperous were obviously not really accepted by God. However, in synergy with God, in love, there isn't such a harsh boundary; judgment may be tempered with forgiveness. One way some look at sin is a reduction of reality; becoming narrower, and anybody who uses oppression and not compassion in their religion is falling short of the truth.
Elizabeth,
I find your comment that includes, "...undermined the idea of free will." interesting because it sounds as if you are a fan of the concept? I say "interesting" because "free will" is a rather central teaching of the Mormon religion, only they refer to it as "free agency".
Additionally fascinating to me is another one of your comments: "However, in synergy with God, in love, there isn't such a harsh boundary; judgment may be tempered with forgiveness." which embodies another prominent teaching of the Mormons.
I am confused as to why it comes across that you are supportive of these ideas, yet your previous posts have been rather critical of that religion when it seems they believe some of the same basic things as you do?
I don't think of the devil the same way an Evangelical may think. I know he was an angel, and he was kicked out of heaven. I think he is merely signifying choice. We can choose one way or another. And there is a good choice and a bad choice. Not necessarily the pits of hell choice. but if you don't have choice, you can't pick to be good.
the JW believe there is no devil. The Bible says that a bad guy will burn in sulphur and brimstone. Doesn't mean hell, it just means he will physically be burned instead of entombed in the catacombs with good people.
JW DO believe in the Devil, Satan, Lucifer, whatever you want to call him. He was originally an angel that coveted the worship of humans that rightfully belong to God, Jehovah. He was the one that deceived Eve & through Eve, deceived Adam. They don't believe in a hell per se as a place where one goes & is tormented forever. They believe hell is the common grave. When you die your thoughts are no more.
Bravo to Brian Williams and NBC for their courage in airing this expose despite the pressure from the Church of Scientology!
Bravo to Brian Williams and NBC for their courage in airing this expose despite the pressure from the Church of Scientology!
My brother didn't speak to his son for 18 years. He divorced his Scieno child's mother when the baby was two.
Dear NBC,
Don't be afraid of Scientology lawyers. They threaten but don't sue. David Miscavige is afraid of being deposed under oath. All you have to do is subpoena MissMissCabbage and they'll back off.
Scientology is not a religion, it is a cult.
Norgold: and the Mormon religion runs a close second to them!!
I dated a young lady for a while in 1972 who got all wrapped up in Scientology. One night she decided not to go to one of their meeting, and instead did something else, and they came knocking on my door saying that they were looking for her. Norgold your correct. They are a cult, not a religion.