By Anna Schecter
Rock Center
Katie Holmes and Tom Cruise's settlement is now final and neither of them has publicly addressed reports that the Church of Scientology-and the future role of Scientology in their daughter Suri’s life-was a cause of the split.
One former Church of Scientology official is speaking out about what he said he witnessed at the time of Cruise’s 2001 divorce from actress Nicole Kidman.
Marty Rathbun, who worked at the church for 27 years before leaving in 2004, said that he believes church officials used Scientology doctrine to turn Kidman’s children against her.
“It was more than implied….[Kidman] was somebody that they shouldn't open up with, they shouldn't communicate with, and they shouldn't spend much time with,” said Rathbun in an interview airing Thursday, July 17 at 10pm/9c on NBC's Rock Center with Brian Williams.
Rathbun said he spent countless hours working with Cruise at the church’s celebrity center in California starting in late 2001. He said he was conducting counseling sessions with Cruise that the church calls "auditing.”
“[Cruise] and I were intensively at it, you know, auditing several hours a day over several months,” he said.
When Cruise’s children were with their father at the church, they were often in the hands of the Church of Scientology staff, according to Rathbun.
“And they were being indoctrinated, and they were reporting to Tom on how that was going in my presence,” Rathbun said.
Rathbun claims church officials suggested to Cruise and Kidman’s children, then six and nine years old, that their mother was a “suppressive person,” which the church’s website, Scientology.org, defines as “a person who seeks to suppress other people in their vicinity.”
“A Suppressive Person will goof up or vilify any effort to help anybody and particularly knife with violence anything calculated to make human beings more powerful or more intelligent. The "suppressive person" is also known as the "anti-social personality." Within this category one finds Napoleon, Hitler, the unrepentant killer and the drug lord,” according to the official Church of Scientology's website, Scientology.org.
Rathbun said the Church of Scientology closely monitors the communication of high profile members and orders members to sever ties with suppressive people, particularly those who are critical of the church.
“That person could be your son, it could be your daughter, it could be your father, it could be your mother. It doesn't matter,” Rathbun said.
Rathbun said these policies came into play with regards to Kidman’s children, Conner and Isabella. “They were being steered toward and indoctrinated toward coming to the conclusion that Nicole was a suppressive person,” he said.
The Church of Scientology has denied that any such conversations with Kidman’s children took place. It has said that it has no policy that requires members to sever ties with relatives who do not believe in the religion. On the church's website, Scientology.org, it says that, "A Scientologist can have trouble making spiritual progress in his auditing or training if he is connected to someone who is suppressive...[and] as a last resort, when all attempts to handle have failed, one 'disconnects' from or stops communicating with the person."
The church declined to comment on the divorce of Cruise and Holmes, saying it would be “inappropriate.”
Kidman’s publicist did not respond to requests for comment on this story. A representative for Cruise told Rock Center that Rathbun is not a reliable source.
"He is a bitter ex-Scientologist who spends most of his time attacking Scientology and using Tom Cruise's name to get attention for his bigoted diatribe. If he "audited" Mr. Cruise, he is violating the privilege of that position by discussing it," said Bert Fields, Cruise's representative.
Of the Church of Scientology's role in influencing Kidman and Cruise's children, Fields said, "It is absolutely false that Mr. Cruise, or anyone else to his knowledge, did or said anything to lessen Connor and Bella's communication or relationship with their mother. On the contrary, Mr. Cruise did all he could to encourage that relationship."
In a letter to NBC News, Gary Soter, an attorney for the Church of Scientology, wrote that Rathbun is an unreliable source and a liar. Soter described Rathbun as “a defrocked ex-communicated apostate.”
Soter wrote that Rathbun is a self-promoter who is “shamelessly” exploiting a tragic personal matter to forward his own anti-Scientology agenda and to profit from it.
Scientology’s online publication FreedomMag.org contains numerous allegations against Rathbun, including charges of violent and psychotic behavior.
Rathbun admits to violent behavior against other members of the church while still a member himself, but says it was part of the culture within the church, which the church denies.
One of the posts on FreedomMag.org asserts that church officials ultimately fired Rathbun from the church for bad behavior and had to “clean up his mess.”
When asked about the allegations against him, Rathbun replied, “Then why was I assigned by the Chairman of the Board to audit Tom Cruise during the last four years of my involvement at the Church of Scientology?”
Karen Russo contributed to this report.
Editor's Note: Kate Snow's full report airs Thursday, July 12 at 10pm/9c on NBC's Rock Center with Brian Williams.
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Are you kidding me? She didnt want to join that stupid cult
Look up scientology on youtube very interesting stuff. They are a little creepy if you ask me. . . .
It sounds like Cruise only wanted to be a Scientologist so he could take Kidman's kids in the divorce and avoid child support!!!
Creepy... But somehow I don't believe that could always be true.
Again, creepy... I'm a religious person, but nobody would take a child of mine in for "indoctrination". Only a cult would have this type of behavior in it and I doubt seriously it's actually like that or we'd be hearing quite a few people yelling. Keep in mind I'm no fan of Cruise or Scientology. I'm just not sure I trust an ex-member of Scientology at their word.
LOL @ the definition. You can't use the word being defined to define a word.
You have a creepy way of interpreting those comments.
Google something like, "How much does it cost to join Scientology"? One article stated that the first 6 lessons, including a I Q test are $6 each. Then $25 and next level more. To finish studies to be free member up to $40,000. Mr. Cruise's level up to $500,000.
I lived near these Scientology nuts in Clearwater, FL where they are based. They "audit" your soul actually with a machine, the more $100's you put in it the more accurate the results are. I used to see them leave class in groups all dressed in lime pastel pants and a tan shirt. It looked like a Twilight Zone scene and will give you the willys in person.
This is a sham freaking cult that is a giant pyramid tax scheme. Brainwashing to the point hey are lost. Look at Travolta now, kinda evil looking and Cruise's wife finally woke up, stay away from these people at all cost.....
The TRUE story is finally out!!! Just hit the presses today.
TOM CRUISE TO MARRY JOHN TRAVOLTA-Destined to be the new Scientology "Power couple".
It was revealed today that John Travolta will also divorce his wife Kelly, so he is free to marry Tom Cruise and the 2 can live happily ever after, as the ultimate power couple of Scientology! When interviewed by a reporter as he was getting a massage from a tall, handsome Latino man, Travolta stated that he and Tom have been an open secret in Hollywood for years, and they married their beards, Katy and Kelly to keep up the facade. Now that everything is out in the open, they can show the world their love for each other.
Please make sure to send them a Best Wishes card!
I think Scientology is cloud cuckoo land. All you have to know is that their founder was a science fiction writer and the Scientology narrative includes a story about a galactic dictator called Xenu... I mean - you have to respect L. Ron. Hubbard - he managed to create a cult based on a science fiction story - I keep picturing him as Dr. Evil with a pinky finger to his lower cheek. Anyway, I don't find it hard to believe that indoctrination occurs in Scientology - I think it would have to to keep it going.
Of course I'll also observe that Sunday School is also an example of indoctrination - when you tell a child what they should believe - that is indoctrination.
Allen "Creepy... But somehow I don't believe that could always be true."
they dont mean - literally in their hands 24/7, but rather under their guidance for most the time - as long as Cruise takes his kids to wherever they do their scientology stuff. "regular churches" think this same way - keep the kids in the church and they'll turn out as good kids (so they assume)
"Again, creepy... I'm a religious person, but nobody would take a child of mine in for "indoctrination". Only a cult would have this type of behavior in it and I doubt seriously it's actually like that or we'd be hearing quite a few people yelling. Keep in mind I'm no fan of Cruise or Scientology. I'm just not sure I trust an ex-member of Scientology at their word."
do you take your kids to church? then you are taking them in for indoctrination. end of story. do you believe what the bible says, do you trust what your preacher/priest says...then you are indoctrinated. end of story. it's not a hard concept to grasp. There are plenty of EX-scientologists who talk endlessly about the brainwashing...there are tons of EX-mormons, EX-amish, EX-Christians (that range from pentecostal, to baptist to you name it) that complain of the same realties. You either believe as we believe, or you hit the road and never come back. If thats not indoctination, what is?
Im not saying you should trust any ex-member but when they all have pretty similar stories and views about their experience, what more can one conclude but that all religion is a cult, period? some are just more willing to let their members go than others, and some arent so willing to let them go - not without a nasty girl fight (like the amish or mormons)
"LOL @ the definition. You can't use the word being defined to define a word."
*face palm...Suppressive Person is their term, so you have to use the word SUPPRESS in the definition, and everyone should know what that word means. But perhaps you dont? So here's the full defintion:
Are you following WHY the scientology peeps would call someone who is rejecting the craziness of this "religion" as Suppressives???
I stopped going to Church in the 3rd grade because the sunday school teachers couldnt ever explain anything or answer my questions, they'd just yell at me "YOU JUST HAVE TO BELIEVE" - and you dont think thats indoctrination? Fools Gold.
L Ron Hubbard was just doing what all religions do - profit. I mean, the best part...he wasnt even shy about it...he said and I quote:
You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion.
and shock, thats just what the sci-fi writer did. who'd have thunk!
Interesting that J.R.R. Tolkien who wrote The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings was an Oxford scholar and master mythologist who understood and enjoyed writing fairy tales and mythology - recognizing these as imaginary worlds.
And yet Tolkien was a devout Christian and Catholic who did not deem his belief in God as imaginary or mythical at all.
He knew the difference.
There are ex-Scientologists, ex-Mormons, ex-Branch Davidians, etc. But not so many people are so quick to define themselves as ex-Methodist, ex-Presbyterian, ex-Unitarian, etc. There are real differences between religious instruction and cult indoctrination.
Indoctrination is to instruct with the intent of imbuing a specific ideology or biased viewpoint. Mainstream religions do that, unfortunately, when they present their ideas as better than others, or present the other ideas and their proponents as wrong, evil, damned, etc. But cults nearly always do that - it is practically a requirement of their survival and spread. They have to convince vulnerable people that the other folks are dangerously wrong, and that they will be damned, shunned, excommunicated, or whatever if they don't subscribe to the stated belief system. If a group or belief system can't survive without indoctrination, it is probably a cult.
TRUE, original Christianity (and some other religions) are not that way. Jesus didn't tell people to stop being Jews, or to give up their other beliefs, or to stop doing certain things, and he wasn't trying to drum up enough people to start a big club/religion (vs. Joseph Smith, L. Ron Hubbard, etc.). In the beginning, he told people NOT to say anything about the things he was doing - so clearly he wasn't trying to grab the spotlight. He just told everyone to quit worrying about all the silly taboos and things that were hurtful, and start loving each other. No one had to believe what he said, or subscribe to some complex set of ideas complete with its own jargon. It was all already out there for anyone who wanted to see and understand it.
Unfortunately, too many preachers, Sunday school teachers, etc. seem to be more into indoctrination than just teaching. I, too, was a victim of some pretty heavy-handed religious intimidation at the tender age of 7. I stayed away from religion for the next 35 years, and only now am I finding out there is a lot of good there that I missed. But it's good because it's free, no one is twisting my arm, it's out there for me to make up my own mind about, and it's about helping others and trying to make the world a better place - not about filling up some famous person or corporation's bank account.
elizac2,
I, too, was brought up in an ultra-conservative religious environment and was turned off by it. But later, as an adult, I decided to find out for myself what Christianity was truly all about and make my own decisions. Not to believe something just because someone else said to believe it. Glad I did.
Some denominations try to put their own spin on the real message and miss it all together.
............."auditing several hours a day".....wasn't that called "Brain Washing" in the 'Good ol' Days' ?
These "Hollywood Freaks" and the 'mind bending' friends of Scientology need a thorough FBI investigation and/or a Congressional Investigation concerning their "Methods." It sounds, looks and smells like a CULT to me.....
Flanative: If Cruise and Travolta did as you say the tenants of the church would have to change since their teaching is that of homosexuals is an abomination, so the church would either have to change or the two would have to leave. This is why you are having such a defense against the charges that John is gay
All you people are going to broil in Xenu's volcano forever. To avoid this fate, please visit a Scientology audit center near you. Please ensure that you bring with you your ID, SSN card, your bank account information and $5000 cash to begin your salvation. Xenu is at hand! Prepare your mind for the inevitable onslaught! Purify your Thetan in the joy of belonging. And don't forget to throw away all of your psychiatric medication-- psychiatry is an abusive system devised by Xenu's avatar, Freud, in order to confuse and enslave your Thetan. Free yourself from torment! Free yourself from your money! The Church of Scientology is here to release you from these evil chains of Xenu's deception!
In all seriousness, if any of the above made sense, please locate your local psychiatric ward and check yourself in... or go find Tom Cruise. ;-)
any organization could possibly be viewed as a cult.... It is all based on your personal beliefs. If you don't agree with it..... It must be bad.... If you don't believe in God, you Likely will be very prone to label all religions as Cult, If you area Baptist, you may well view Scienology as a cult. I personnaly think the Scientology group is pretty Wierd and Looney. I think they could easily view me the same. Remember tis is the United States of America and our constitution, when allowed to function as written, preserves the right to your freedom of religion and anyone's Freedom of speech to disagree with it. It really hurtts to watch so many mean spirited responses in blogs like this. I think we should focus inward and quit being so anxious to bash others who may have a set of beliefs slightly or greatly different than Our Own. I will say thaT i APPLAUD THOSE THOUGH WHO ARE EXORCIZING THEir Constitutional right of Speech..... Please don't begrudge others their right as well.
Thank you and May God Bless, If you don't believe then Poof...... WSe outa here
Practicing the simple 12 steps is enough to encounter your greater self and have a wonderful life. It is practical and allows a person to have a real relationship with oneself. No religion necessary.
Right on Peter, if most had a power greater than themselves than the world would be a better place. But I still take life on life's terms and it is much easier today.
Chuck Cooper - I'd agree with you 100% except for the number of wrotten things I have seen done in the name of "x" organized religion. I also wonder if one is really doing the morally right thing when you tell a child what they should believe. It is one thing to say "I believe this..." However, I think you've crossed the line to indoctrination (heading towards cult) when you tell a child what they should believe. Call me crazy. Maybe that is why I'm agnostic.
WMG21 you are hilarious!! :-)
What's the difference between a religion and a cult? The amount of property you own.
What's the difference between a religion and a cult?
Supposedly cults are organizations that use devious psychological techniques to gain and control followers and religions aren't...
lolf.................knew
said by Frank Zappa.....!
Sounds like the democratic party,or Marxism,socialism!
You should see what the military does to our children when it comes to brainwashing. I am amazed at how they come home transformed and twisted after 'training'.
Here is an interesting quote from Charles Manson, apparently he took 150 hours of Scientology training but quit with the words "that shi55 is too crazy man" lets see the country's most infamous Psycho Killer thinks your cult is "too crazy man" that speaks volumes for the Hubtards mental stability and even more about Mr. Cruise.
Wow EVIL big Cult Folks I have done a lot or research and investigating I truly believe Miscavige and his blackmailing cronies will go to jail. Do some research this is one scary group.
Ron DeWolfe eldest son of Hubbard (born L. Ron Hubbard, Jr.), in an affadavit in Schaick v. Church of Scientology, US District Court Mass., No. 79-2491
He is a fraud and has always been a fraud. … My father has always used the confidential information extracted from people during [auditing] to intimidate, threaten and coerce them to do what he wanted, which often meant getting them to give him money. My father routinely used false threats and [information from confessionals] particularly about crimes people had committed to extort money from them. … My father has always held out Scientology and auditing to be based purely on science and not on religious "belief" or faith. We regularly promised and distributed publications with "scientific guarantees". This was and has always been common practice. My father and I created a "religious front" only for tax purposes and legal protection 'from fraud Claims'. We almost always told nearly everyone that Scientology was really science, not a religion, but that the religious front was created to deal with the government.
I saw first hand what the 'church of scientology' did with my by backyard neighbors, The Meisners. After Mr. Meisner died they found out that there were no heirs and they simply took over Mrs. Meisner's life. They had her change her will and eventaully got her house after she passed away not even 6 months after Mr. Meisner dies. I wouldn't doubt it if they helped her along as she deteriorated fast within those 6 months. Of course I have no proof so I can not state this as a fact but my doubts remain.
There is nothing too low for these folks and I mean nothing those of us who are not in the cult are believed to be lesser beings or in their words "wogs" and a wog can be used or abused in any fashion with no repercussions.
@ FlaNative55
The TRUE story is finally out!!! Just hit the presses today.
TOM CRUISE TO MARRY JOHN TRAVOLTA-Destined to be the new Scientology "Power couple".
This is total hogwash....there is nothing on the web about such an announcement. Do you just like to run around spewing gossip like this? Don't you have a life of ANY kind??/
@ elizak2: "I stayed away from religion for the next 35 years, and only now am I finding out there is a lot of good there that I missed. But it's good because it's free, no one is twisting my arm, it's out there for me to make up my own mind about, and it's about helping others and trying to make the world a better place - not about filling up some famous person or corporation's bank account."
Now, how are we to know that you're not just as loony as those YOU accuse?? We have nothing except your word. You, who have known nothing of any of the Biblical teachings (i.e. the Word of God), for 35 years, are now going to expound the wonderful mysteries of God to millions upon millions of the poor creatures who have faithfully practiced their "misguided" religions... Amazing.
Do you see how people like you really have no right to judge the various faiths in this world?
After seen "Chuck Cooper's" comment collapse by the myriad of "haters of faith" around here, for doing nothing but sharing his beliefs, I know what kind of people are on here tonight. And even then, he left you all with his blessing, and you collapsed him for it. Very few of you know anything God....how could you pretend to judge ANY religion OR cult. You're all just as lost as those you accuse....
I'm outta here.....
don't let the door hit you...
Sure sounds like a cult to me.
It is.
You mean like facebook? "I on FB. I R somebody" - said the zombie
Hey Tom,
Ya think you could ween yourself of this Scientology way of life? I mean, you are your own person right? Common sense can go a long way if you got it. I don't think you need this crutch in life. Your to smart for that. You would do well on your own train of thought without interference from some strict brain washing institution.
Seriously!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Seriously!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
All religions started out as cults. Just because they (Christianity, Islam etc.) have been around a long time does not make them any less a cult.
Religion needs to die out as the foolish booga boo that it is.
Religion has only harmed more than it ever helped.
Religion is simply an extension of our tribal/pack mentality. Unfortunately, if religion disappears we will find another way to make an "us" versus "them". It is the flawed egoistic human mind causing the issues. Until we find a way to deal with that, we are doomed to keep humanity in its cycle of violence and destruction.
Religion itself isn't actually "us vs. them". Some religions try very hard to get past that. It is our base human nature, the part of us that is still essentially an animal, that messes it up time and time again, turning something enlightened and beautiful into something ugly, over which we fight wars, discriminate, kill, exclude, money-grab, etc. The Bible is actually full of stories like that. Every time people start to figure it out, get along, make it work, somebody comes along and in their limited, greedy human-ness, messes it up: Eve offerred the apple and Adam bit, the people Moses led through the desert kept getting off track and focusing on all the petty little things, whining their way through 40 years of exile, the people in Sodom and Gomorrah refused to stop being ultimately selfish and hurtful to each other. These may be fables, but they illustrate the principle that people just don't get it - we just keep wallowing in our own wants and needs and tribalism and everything else. ... We murder the man who truly understands it all and tries to simply get us to love our neighbors as ourselves.
I'm sorry but you're wrong about religion. Many denominations of christianity preach love and tolerance for others, not hate and control. To paint like that is to be very ignorant of the goings on.
A cult and religion are actually quite different, although they can be intertwined. The main thing is the amount of structure and control. For example, if you say "I believe in Zeus and I'm holding a meeting to discuss my ideas" that is simply religion, whereas if you say "I'm appointed by Zeus to spread his words and if you want to be saved then you must give me money and leave your friends and wear special underwear" then it is a cult.
In other words, if you have a good idea or interesting idea there is no need to control anyone -- a good idea should be able to spread by itself and shouldn't need defending. If you have a bad idea then you need to exploit human psychological weaknesses to control them. Scientology is all about control and therefore definitely a cult.
For example, if Scientology was such a powerful thing then they shouldn't be so afraid of "suppressive persons".
The basic test of how sound an idea is is that it can withstand any sort of scrutiny and criticism. Scientology fails that test.
Except other dominant religions don't require you to pay up in order to be a member and have money as a driving force for you to move up the ladder. You don't need to invest so much money into the "religion" that you're in financial ruin. You're not ex-communicated and threatened by officials that may seek out to destroy your image in whatever way possible (or go "missing") when you try to leave. You're not being put on some bogus holistic healing program where they claim will replace psychiatric medication. In this case, it's all about the money. When you're charging thousands of dollars for a few hours on their "religious" courses it should scream "cult" or a "for-profit organization" to you. Any sane person with the passion to teach others about their religion would spread the word from their hearts and out of love, not for the money. How they manage to justify the need to charge so much (or charge money in general) to someone who wants to study its principles is beyond me.
cchan
I don't know ... when I used to go to church they would pass a plate and "expect" that you would put something of value in it. Then the church started only taking pledges of XX dollars a week .... that's when I wised up to the scam.
Churches should be taxed and should have regulations that require that a certain % go to helping the poor and in need NOT buying golden chalices and expensive artwork for a temple in Rome.
peacenik:
I suppose, but also no one is going to hold a grudge against you if you don't contribute. But this comes from someone who went to churches that were pretty good-sized... not at a televangelist megachurch level obviously, but one that had enough people that you don't know who everyone are. It also could be the church that you went to too; I'm pretty indifferent to organized religion now, but I don't think all churches demand or expect you to put money on it. You do so freely, and if you don't, then they understand and move on.
And I agree that churches should be taxed. There's plenty of churches that do good and whatnot, but plenty take advantage of the tax-exemption. They put so much emphasis on the glitz and glam or are plain unethical that the people running the churches are extremely wealthy and make a profit out of it... something that's against the doctrine of most organized religions.
Sounds like our local Bible Baptist Church.
I never had any problems with any other Baptists but this group is STRANGE.
Members completely sever ties with family members who don't wish to join the church.
Laura, it doesn't matter what "church" it is, if they want you to sever ties with "non believers" or those that won't join the church...it's a cult. It is usually related to some coo-coo "pastor" who really wants people to worship and be controlled by him (or her).
Get Out of such a church immediately is my advice. Before there is tragedy.
You have unknowingly joined a cult.
Run.
Baptist churches use a "congregation polity," which is church jargon that means that each individual congregation runs itself the way it thinks best (doesn't mean that is it "best," just their own belief.) In other words, there is no central Baptist authority or dogma dictating to the local church (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congregationalist_polity).
Even in congregational polity, many churches will share commons beliefs and understandings but (1) it isn’t certain they will (it is up to the congregation); and (2) no central authority, like the denominations’ headquarters for example, mandates these beliefs.
BTW, many Protestant churches use congregation polity, not just Baptists.
This church, possibly lead by a very charismatic pastor, could be off on some weird (and possibly even very weird) trail. Not unheard of.
Also, one of the typical Baptist beliefs is the practice of "The Great Commission" (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_commission) which, by its nature, almost mandates involvement with non-believers. So this is indeed atypical.
Most Baptist churches believe in basic tenet called “believer priest” which basically says what you believe is between you and God and have no need of another person to function as their priest (pastor) at all; every believer is a priest unto God. In other words, if you don’t have to automatically agree with what the pastor tells you. You have a mind and a soul and a responsibility to make to make up your own mind. If you don't believe as they do, find another church!
Comparative Religion (the systematic comparison of the doctrines and practices of the world’s religions) was one of my favorite courses in college.
Jim Jones ran a Baptist church. They served free Kool-Aid, too!
The Cult of bring you donations cause you can't take it with you.
Sounds a bit like the church of latter day saints...........
readbetweenthelines - you could not be more wrong. There is no coersion or threat of violence in the Mormon Church. Yes, there is discipline and expeced behaviour, but former members are not persued like they are in Scientology. Check out some youtube videos on the subject.
in mormonism...jesus and satan are brothers.
and you can be a GOD one day!!!!!
Um, no, it doesn't.
betweenthe lines -
Sounds a bit like you don't know what your talking about..............
I believe readbetween... was referring to LDS as a cult, not their particular behavior. However, from personal experience, I know the LDS do strongly shun many people who leave the church. Plus Scientology denies coersion and violence in their church, so unless "out in..." is taking the disenfranchised person's word for it, there is no basis for it.
I also know many Christians who consider that the LDS is a cult. Given that "obediance" is a very strong part of the LDS, that part and shunning is similar to a cult.
Of course, I see certain people who hate all religions as calling all religions "cults", but I suspect most of those people who say those things are actually in their own cult, with strongly held beliefs and an "you're for me or against me attitude". However, no one thinks what they are in is a cult, since that is a pejorative word.
Shunning is common practice in many religions. Christianity has approximately 33000 different sects, and many of them do practice shunning of apostates, including close family members, as a method with 2 reasons:
1) Shunning is used as a deterrent to leaving the church. Leave the church, you lose your family, your friends, your social life, your support network. You can even lose your children, parents, or spouse. It's an ever-present threat. Many churches that don't espouse shunning, even, look the other way when zealous members force others to do it.
2) Shunning is also about keeping those who have thrown off the encumbrances of the cult, or religion, if you prefer, from influencing others down that road. If they can't be heard, their words don't matter. So, even if the apostate does not succumb to the pressures to rejoin, or move away from the area, then those who are in the cult, or religion, will not be influenced by their words. It's a similar tactic to the "That is of the devil" that you hear preachers go on and on and on about, over and over again. The apostate is evil, and anyone who listens to the arguments puts their immortal soul in danger of hellfire. It's less formal and rigid than actual shunning, but it has nearly the same effect.
Not to say Christianity is the only religion that practices shunning, but it seems the most prevalent. Islam, of course, advocates death for non-believers, as does the bible (both OT and NT). But shunning has taken a "more humane" approach and left the apostates with their lives, if nothing else (often nothing else).
Yeah, it's sick, twisted, demented. It's payback for not being able to burn non-believers at the stake anymore. Many churches are realizing it's a bad idea, not just for PR's sake, but that you can't exist in this modern world without running into those who think differently from you. But, some continue to try, anyway.
The thing is, it isn't just religions that practice shunning. We humans - we glamorous monkeys - just keep being tribal, pack-oriented animals, dividing ourselves into groups of us vs. them and finding ways to fight with each other about it. Every read the Dr. Seuss book "The Sneetches"? That man was a visionary...
I'm LDS and you're very wrong. They do not preach hate, they preach love. They do not shun those who leave the church, they worry about them. I work in the missionary section for my local ward and they worry about others including members, non-members, and those who leave. As for the Jesus and Satan being brothers, welcome to christianity. In talks in the bible about every angel being created and Satan was an Angel like Jesus.
Casey, I think you haven't experienced that part of the LDS approach but that doesn't make it not true. In my LDS days, they "worried" for a while and then essentially made me (of course they don't physically make you, but they recommend it, actually offer to give you a place to stay so you can leave, counsel you to sever ties, etc.) leave all my friends and family. You probably haven't seen that because your social group probably is considered relatively safe.
Also note that no other major Christian sect believes that Jesus was an angel ...
@out in the woods: I do not need to watch any youtube videos on the subject. Here in the city the LDS stooges are at my door, every second day, with their watchtower magazines and witty repartie about how their religious beleifs are more correct than mine.
As for Scientology. One member of my family joined then quit shortly thereafter. They are definitely a cult. They still harrass after 10 years. A very intolerant, control freakish, quasi-religion, based on the ramblings of a second rate scifi author.
Yeah, I can tell you LDS DEFINITELY shun non-believers. Of course they'd rather make you a believer, like any good cult. I lived in a town with a large Mormon population, with some Mormon friends. I remember a friend who's other Mormon friends could come in his house, but his parents forbade any non-Mormons. I saw Mormons hire friends from their church instead of promoting people with far more experience, and at more than one workplace. I saw two different friends of my sister marry mormon guys, and get psychologically bullied to the point of tears, until they eventually ended all their friendships with non-believers. So, yeah, they might not ALL be that way, but it became pretty obvious to me that there was a pattern. I know several Mormons that tried to bust the mold, and they were either forced to conform, or excommunicated. A good friend of the family demanded we not hand over her remains to them after she died, and boy did they try. She wanted to be buried in a blue vodka bottle just to piss them off. They're tenacious, tight-knit, and tight-lipped though, I'll give 'em that.
In 1979 I moved to Arizona from Colorado. I bought a home in a lovely neighborhood. About a week after I moved in, a little girl about 6 years old knocked on the door. I answered and smiled at the little girl, without any preamble she asked me... "are you a whore? Mommy says that's the only way you could afford this neighborhood when you're so young. What's a whore?"(I was under 30 and an attorney with a very good corporate job)
I followed the little girl home and asked to speak to her mom. Mom came to the front door and I introduced myself, and explained I was not a whore, but a Harvard educated attorney with a good job. Mom was duly chagrined, apologized and invited me in. They were Mormons. 8 kids under the age of 12.
Once they found out I was single, they tried (as well as other Mormon neighbors) to set me up with Mormon dates. Whew... what a bunch of hooey they promoted. Women can't go to heaven until their husband or father calls them in by their secret name. If woman dies first, she stays in a 'waiting' room until husband (or father if she's unmarried) dies and calls her into heaven. Yeah, right. I was raised Episcopalian, and that hooey just doesn't work for a feminist.
I finally had to tell them I was into rough sex with chains and whips, so they would let up on finding me a husband. Totally untrue, but loads of fun watching their jaw drop.
What I found odd is that I could not visit a Temple without becoming a Mormon. That's just weird and cult-like. I moved from the neighborhood 7 years later when I accepted a promotion on the east coast. I was still single and delightfully Episcopalian. House sold to a large Mormon family.
Casey you're confused. In the Christian Bible Jesus is never referred to as an angel. That is a major distinction between Evangelical Christianity and LDS.
A great place to see this very clear distinction in the Christian Bible is in Hebrews chapter 1:
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"?
And again: "I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son"?
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
7 And of the angels He says: "Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire."
8 But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions."
10 And: "You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail."
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said: "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool"?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?
(NKJV)
Mormons are not Christians since they do not believe Jesus was God. I am surprised how many people think LDS is a Christian denomination.
I never really read much about the Cruise/Kidman split, but she always stuck me as a pretty classy lady for not running Cruise down or saying negative things when she could have. Maybe I'm wrong.
I believe divorces between high profile people such as actors often include settlement agreements which require they not disclose private information that might damage careers. Sort of a professional courtesy or perhaps an added deterrent to libel and slander. Some wisely want to keep their private lives private to protect themselves and the people they love. You often see things go very quiet after a divorce/settlement.
Then of course there's Scientology's reputation for aggressively attacking people who badmouth them. I remember watching a 60-minutes piece about ex-Scientologists being threatened and harassed. Hopefully this very public flogging of Cruise will bring wide enough scrutiny to make that harder to get away with.
looney freak'n tunes
Rathbun was not Cruise's former auditor. And the problem with Rathbun is that he doesn't know the difference between fact and fiction. He invents things, then calls it fact.
- A veteran Scientologist
"He invents things, then calls it fact"
Sounds like religion in general.
Kind of like Hubbard invented Scientology?
Of course you would say that as a veteran Scientologist. You've been instructed to monitor and disrupt public discussions.
I'm going to believe Rathbun in this case, given Scientology's history, i.e. Lisa McPherson.
Sounds like Scientology
Coming from someone that believes in and runs his/her life with a ridiculous fairy tale, Vixen, I'm not sure you're a good ambassador for parsing fact from fiction.
Hi Pot. Meet Kettle.
A "veteran" Scientologist? Please, spare me, a veteran Cult member would be more accurate. I live near the Scientology headquarters, and these people always immediately start making up lies about former members right after they escape from the church, even though all of the former members stories are basically the same. The church philosophy is to just keep denying everything this person says, and calling him a liar (sound familiar Mr. Veteran?), and he was a bum, yada, yada, yada. They have been doing the same thing for at least the past 20 years. Want to see the true story? Look up the St. Petersburg Times stories on Scientology. Hey Veteran, if Rathbun was such a scumbag, why did the church keep him on for the last century?
Sorry, Veritable Veteran $cientologist - as a $cientologist, you DON'T know the truth. Only until you're free, will you be allowed to know what the rest of us know. I speak from experience (30+ years in the cult). Of all the books and stories and articles and comments I've read from both sides since I took back my freedom, the ONLY lies I've seen are from the cult.
You say "...the problem with Rathbun is that he doesn't know the difference between fact and fiction. He invents things, then calls it fact." Wow, you really need to do some real research; you'll discover that that is EXACTLY what Hubbard did. There has never been any evidence or proof of his so-called "research" that created his whole science-of-mind con game.
"The purpose of the suit is to harass and discourage rather than to win. The law can be used very easily to harass, and enough harassment on somebody who is simply on the thin edge anyway, well knowing that he is not authorized, will generally be sufficient to cause his professional decease. If possible, of course, ruin him utterly."
"ENEMY SP Order. Fair game. May be deprived of property or injured by any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of the Scientologist. May be tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed."
These are from L. Ron himself. Many more of these gems can be found at:
http://www.xenu.net/archive/infopack/5.htm
Naw, there's absolutely nothing cultish about this. /s
Scientology is a known fraud and money gathering organization. Hubbard was crazy enough, but since his passing things have turned much worse.
No religion (no God, anyway) needs to base your salvation on money.
"MAKE MONEY. MAKE MORE MONEY. MAKE OTHER PEOPLE PRODUCE SO AS TO MAKE MORE MONEY."
- L. Ron Hubbard, Hubbard Communications Office Policy Letter, 9 March 1972, MS OEC 384
I, for one, believe Rathbun!
I believe him because his story directly (and almost perfectly) parallels the direct experience of a member of my family where the Church of Scientology and was told to sever ties with this person's family, even the small children, as "suppressive" people.
My family member wasn't a celebrity, just a common person.
Severing ties was complete. She live two blocks from her 4-year-old granddaughter who couldn't understand why Grandma didn't visit her anymore. Three years into this estrangement, she ran into her daughter and granddaughter at the mall on day and she simply did an about-face a walked off in the opposite direction without even an acknowledgement (I witnessed this.)
Eight years after all ties were severed, my family member died of cancer completely alone. After 20 years of almost slavish devotion the Church of Scientology, not a single other member of the Church of Scientology visited or assisted in in any way in the last months of her life when things became very difficult. Three weeks before my family member died, she re-opened ties with her children but only because there was nobody else to turn to for help. We move her into hospice care (to die comfortably) and her three children stayed with her around the clock in those last three weeks. There was NOT a single call, card, letter or visit (or offer of help) from anyone related to the Church of Scientology or even another member.
On her deathbed, she told us about severing ties and that she regretted it very much.
All organized religions are potential cults. Be careful.
All organized religions are
potentialcultsThere, fixed it for you.
I don't agree with Bob, but it's true that any church can be swayed in the wrong direction by crazy, unscrupulous persons. All to gain control, money, power and fan their burning egos. Bob, there are lots of churches out there that do not fit that description, that do lots of public service and truly help people cope. You may be thinking of Islam...or Scientology.
I agree with Bob.
People call these people loons but then they go to church on Sunday to worship a guy who they are taught rose from the dead and walked on water, LOL.
Yes but my church lets me think that those might be symbolic stories, metaphors for what the man represented and subsequently became. It doesn't shun me, close its doors to me, or require me to go through hours and hours of "auditing" or any other form of persuasion for believing that way. It opens its arms and says, "As long as you love your neighbor as yourself, as long as you help people who need it, come inside and we'll help you do those things".
But, then again, if you believe in a Supreme Being who created the Universe and therefore created science, then that Supreme Being could also manipulate physical science if deemed necessary.
Hence, miracles happen.
Sounds like the kids were brainwashed to me. What ashame, they're missing out on a wonderful woman by dis-associating themselves from their mother. Hopefully one day they'll come back to her. I think Katie did what she did to avoid that exact scenario. Must have been heartbreaking for Nicole. Very sad.
You know what the main difference is between a cult and a religion? The number of members.
And how much property they own.
That's actually just not true. There are specific hallmarks of cults, most to do with serious controls of information that a member receives or has access to, and serious monitoring and control of the member's day-to-day lives and pocket books, cutting off access to people outside the "religion", hardcore bullying and the existence of secret doctrine that only higher echelon members have access to. There is a difference between a cult and a regular religious group or new religious movement.
The only difference is the amount of time it has existed. They all start out as cults and if they last long enough become a religion. So a 19th century cult becomes a 20th century mainstream religion and is on the cusp of having a president in the 21st. I would bet that if the Branch Davidians had managed to last and attract growing numbers of follows that somewhere in the 22nd century it would have taken its place as another "mainstream" religion.
Not that they change any of their methods. Look at the Roman Catholic church. They still will excommunicate you if you piss them off bad enough. If you seriously still believe any of their blarney, then they will have killed your everlasting life. The Muslim religion is much more direct. They just kill you in this life (and the next one as well). When both believe in eternal life, the difference is hardly worth noticing.
LDS members encourage family closeness and love. So very different from the weird Sociopaths (oops Scientologists) who have "auditors" following their every move.
The LDS church also thinks that they are the one "true" religion. As soon as I hear that, I run away as far as I can. And while the LDS does encourage family closeness and love, they do so at the expense of women doing (as one LDS member told me), "the important things", which is stay to at home and bear and raise multiple kids. I asked him what the men did and he said the unimportant things like make a living and run the church. That was such a lame answer, I couldn't even deign it with a reply.
However, most Mormons are taught from a young age about how to reply to people from other religions when the are asked about the LDS church. This is because so many people see it as a bizarre, possibly non-Christian religion. The brightest of the bright Mormons are picked to go out and evangalize and get more people to join are given several months of intensive training on what to say to people to get them to join the LDS church and make it seem logical. Once you join, the first thing the LDS church does when you join is do an intake and tell you how much money you will tithe them.
I still recall another conversation with this Mormon who told me the American Indians were the "lost tribe" and wasn't that just so logical? I can't understand how anyone could see the Mormon church as "logical", but the training these people get to try and get you to come to their point of view is very intense and very good.
Last, almost without a doubt the people making these very positive comments about the Mormon church are Mormons.
The LDS church was started by a charlatan who was into self-promotion and money-making. That's kind of a red flag right there. It also includes secret practices that only certain elites have access to. Keeping "higher levels" of membership or enlightenment secret is yet another red flag of cultism. It oppresses women, although that is not a hallmark of a cult, since Christianity and Islam do a pretty good job of that, also.
Joseph Smith was a slick willie who wanted to make a fast buck in an age when religious revivals were all the rage, due to social and economic uncertainties. When he, as a married man, got the hots for his neighbor's daughter, he had a convenient vision that God told him men should have plural wives. My ex-husband, as it turned out, was no different in wanting something he wasn't supposed to have - except that at least he didn't try to tell me that God said he should sleep with my friend. When Utah wanted statehood, the US balked at polygamy. And, amazingly enough, God spoke again, and said "Ooops, I was wrong. Plural marriage is wrong, after all".
Come, on, people. It's a cult and a Big Business.
You need to do a bit more studying........
To complete Scott-667430's comment:
"You need to do a bit more studying ......... ," said the mormon.
No, I won't capitalize it.
Indoctrination and shunning and isolation practices take place at numerous (but not all) churches including Scientology. You can see these practices take place with the Amish, the Menonites, Evangelicals Mormons and others. Most often it is somewhat benign but it can also be severe and very destructive to families, where husband and wives, brothers and sisters don't share the same belief.
Unfortunately, at the the Church of Scientology, it is not benign and is very much a common practice.
Having first hand experience with how the Church of Scientology used these practices to alienate my own sister from our very close knit family. I have come to despise the Church of Scientology and it's practices. Fortunately after years of alienation my sister left this religion/cult and today my sibling is very much a part of the family.
While I am very tolerant of others religious beliefs, I have nothing but contempt for this one.
If you are talking about the FLDS "Mormons," you would be correct. The REAL LDS church does not do that.
I personally experienced the shunning when it was discovered that I planned to leave Scn. I worked at a Scn-owned business, 90% of whose employees were Scientologists. It certainly did not feel very benign!
Sorry, Cheryl, but I beg to differ. I have good friends that moved back to Colorado from Utah because they had a young child and the LDS children would not play wih her at the public playgrounds. And these are good, loving people. So Yes, LDS DOES shun others then their own.
@CheriL maybe you haven't experienced it because your family and friends aren't sufficiently opposed, but when I was in the "real" LDS they strongly encouraged me to leave all my family and friends, tried to "help" me leave by offering places to stay and plane tickets, etc. and just badgering me on it. If you are in LDS it is definitely discouraged to associate closely with people who are critical to LDS.
I applaud Scientology for curing Tom's gayness. They are still working on Travolta but for some reason Travolta is a gay body thetan magnet. He just can't shake them. Still worth saving though. Keep up the good work OTs.
OMG - the lightbulb just went off over my head. I never really thought about this. I know that Cruise has always been highly suspected of being gay and of course Travolta has all of the gay scandals surrounding him. Interesting. But for the record, Travolta is not as ego maniac A$$ like Cruise. Just closeted (I guess.)
LOL!!! Damn that was funny!
Hilarious!
OK. DId any of you see the Southpark episode about Scientology? "Dad, Tom Cruise and John Travolta won't come out of the closet !!!"
Sure, I realize it's a cartoon....but, sometimes sarcasm is funny because it holds a small grain of truth. (perceived or real).
YES!!!!! One of the funniest South Park episodes ever. Well, that and the Michael Jackson episode.
No different than any other religion. Objectively they are all cut from the same cloth of quackery.
I remember visiting a Scientology center after reading Dianetics over 20+ years ago. After discovering their rate of 200 dollars for a half hour audit session, I declined their offer to become a member. It takes years and tens of thousands of dollars to reach the level of 'clear'. The scientologist told me before I left that I would end up a basket case and would end up blowing my own brains out because I was not 'clear'.
This is the biggest scam out there and the brain-washing techniques they use to try convince you that there is no other way than Scientology, should be outlawed.
Scientology is a suppressive cult!
"In all the broad Universe there is no other hope for Man than ourselves."
- L. Ron Hubbard, "Ron's Journal" 1967
Cruise is a total arrogant control freak. Good for you, Katie, to blindside him. Wish Nicole could have had the same chance. I refuse to watch Tom Cruise movies. I just detest the guy. Also, doesn't it seem pretty quick for him to agree to settlement? She SO has something on him. Something really good.
Can't wait to hear this one... :)
More likely, the "church" got involved with the divorce immediately. My guess is that they went to Cruise and said, "We need to make this go away silently. We ... and you ... are going to make her an offer she can't refuse." My guess is that she is now going to be a very wealthy woman, and that TC will only be footing some percentage of the bill for that.
I completely thought the same thing. Agreed to everything in less than 2 weeks. In a high profile divorce case? Unheard of. Yes she has something on him!!!!
Scary Nutbar Cult . . .
I don't think his believes had anything to do with Kat's feelings. I mean look at Tom , can you imagine him to be able to make a little mistake (like normal people do). His ego, I bet is bigger then his w....
Scientology isn't spoken of as a "cult" because they now own/run the Cult Awareness Network that was established after Jonestown. The inmates run the asylum.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_Awareness_Network#.22New_CAN.22
Yes, and that's a sad state of affairs. And has a very dark back-story to it.
When someone says that there is no such thing as truth I respond: "Isn't that the truth!" Isn't all teaching indoctrination to an extent? Didn't we all learn certain principles from our home of origin even if they were never verbalized? Someone has said that we all have a concept of what constitutes a normal home and illustrated it as: "A normal home has a dog, a BIG dog." Are we to be so smug as to think that only ourself and a few "think-a-likes are have it all figured out? Personally, I believe the best view originates with God and Jesus. What we know of Jesus comes from the Bible and it tells us that He spoke about a great deal more than "love" as understood by society today. God gave us a Bible (book), not just a page, paragraph, sentence or phrase.
Scientology is a wanna-be mafia. Surprise....you can't "Tone 40" everyone into thinking you're an all-powerful 'clear.' The FBI/ATF or someone needs to raid these RPF compounds to investigate the child abuse going on within Scientology.
Note how the article headline says "FORMER AUDITOR" but the sensational headline on the main msnbc.msn.com home page just says "TOM CRUISE'S SCIENTOLOGY AUDITOR..."
FYI, NBC Universal/Comcast/WTF-ever you are, using sensational and misleading headlines means you're all @!$%#TY JOURNALISTS. If the editors are such liars, how can anyone believe the writers? Garbage (Murdoch-style) journalism. Y'all suck.
It doesn't take too much intelligence to understand that Tom Cruise's auditor was a former auditor. According to you, all journalist are liars and we should only believe you.
Y'all suck too!