By Marianne O'Donnell
Rock Center
The family of a Rutgers University student who killed himself after discovering his roommate, Dharun Ravi, had spied on him is speaking out for the first time since Ravi’s conviction of hate crimes earlier this year.
Tyler Clementi’s parents, Jane and Joe Clementi, and his older brother James told Rock Center exclusively that Tyler was struggling with many issues before his death. But they believe Ravi’s decision to spy on Tyler during a sexual encounter with another man in his dorm room played a role in the suicide. They also say they have changed their views on homosexuality in the wake of their son’s death.
‘Whatever underlying depressions or pains that were going on with [Tyler], that was straw that broke the camel’s back and that was the thing that pushed him to the breaking point,” James Clementi told NBC’s Lester Holt in an interview broadcast Thursday on Rock Center.
Tyler Clementi, 18, had just begun his freshman year at Rutgers University’s Busch Campus in September 2010 when he asked Ravi, 20, if he could have their room for the evening. Ravi says he later went to a dorm mate’s room and remotely activated a computer webcam. Ravi says the webcam briefly streamed live video of Clementi in an embrace with his date.
Ravi then tweeted the following: “Roommate asked for the room till midnight. I went into molly’s room and turned on my webcam. I saw him making out with a dude. Yay.”
Clementi later told a dorm advisor that he had read that tweet, and another by Ravi that indicated he planned to spy on Clementi and his date again. A day later Clementi committed suicide.
“I think it was – it was the humiliation that his roommates and his dorm mates were watching him in a very intimate act and that they were laughing behind his back,” said Jane Clementi. “The last thing that Tyler looked at before he left the dorm room for the bridge was the Twitter page, where Ravi was announcing Tyler's activities.”
The Clementis have remained largely silent about Ravi’s actions since he was named in a 15-count indictment last year that included invasion of privacy and hate crimes. He was not charged in connection with their son’s death. A jury later found Ravi guilty on all counts, putting him at risk of years in prison. Instead, Ravi was sentenced to just 30 days in jail, 300 hours of community service and three years of probation. The Middlesex County Prosecutor’s Office, which tried the case, is appealing the sentence.
Last week, Ravi walked out of a county jail after having served just 20 days. To the Clementis, the punishment was far too lenient.
“I think the judge sent a clear message to other prosecutors,” said Jane Clementi. “This isn't worthwhile. There are no consequences for these actions.”
But the Clementis also say they realize their son was wrestling with demons unrelated to the spying incident. Just weeks before he left home to attend Rutgers he told his mother he was gay. She says the news “shocked” her, in part because of her strong Christian faith. Since then she says she’s gone from “point A” in her beliefs “to point B.”
“Was that point A, the point of "homosexuality is a sin?" asked Holt.
“Well, yes,” Mrs. Clementi answered. “And of trying to just accept it.”
She said she also realizes that Tyler may have misread her reaction during their conversation. He later texted a friend that his mother had rejected him after he came out to her.
“It just was like a dagger,” Mrs. Clementi said. “And that took me a long time to process. Because I did not think I had rejected him.”
Now, Jane Clementi says she and her family are trying to help gay teens win greater acceptance through the foundation they’ve started in Tyler’s honor. Clementi’s parents say they hope The Tyler Clementi Foundation will discourage cyber bullying and the notion that they themselves once held that homosexuality is a sin.
“Sin needs to be taken out of homosexuality,” said Joe Clementi. “Our children need to understand – and adults need to understand – that they're not broken.”
Rock Center's Carlo Dellaverson contributed to this report.
Leave a Comment:
The sentence is an outrage. One young man is dead as a direct result of another s actions. He should have been put away for life.
The prosecutor offered no jail time, ravi rejected and decided to fight. Now the prosecutor thinks jail time too little. Sore loser?
Hundreds of thousands of Iraquis and Afghanis are dead....do Bush and Obama need to be put away for life?
That's crap! One person cannot force another to commit suicide. What Ravi did was wrong, but he is not responsible for Clementi's death. He had no way of knowing what would happen. Would you kill yourself over the actions of someone else? If your answer is yes then you are very weak as this young man was.
You are in a country where the Supreme Court has said that corporations count as people - the fairness went out of justice a long time ago my friend.
Life sentance is pretty harsh for what he did. Cleary the young man had issues well before the incident. I doubt he would have commited suicide if his parents would have been a little more accepting. Christian beliefs don't leave much room for homosexuality. I find it dissapointing that in this day and age, this is still an issue with some people. Even though their actions contributed to his death, I don't think a life sentance is appropriate. If it is, then the parents should go to jail for life to for contributing to his mental instability.
@ rufe: I guess you completely missed the message and the point of this article. The kid is dead because of the so-called "sin" associated with homosexuality, not the actual actions of his roommate. His death while tragic, is not a result if what his roommate tweeted or text. His death is a result of the stigma that society has attached to being homosexual.
The webcam whether it was viewing two gays or two straight people was an invasion of privacy and just plain creepy. We are going to find over the next many years, that technology is interesting and fun, but can be used easily to do harm. Many people just plain do not have commonsense or just common decency.
This act however did not trigger the boy to kill himself. He did that. It is no different than being rejected by a boyfriend or girlfriend that often makes young people feel worthless. I remember in high school knowing a gal that had a long-term boyfriend that broke up with her. She walked out in traffic in front of all her friend and killed herself. Awful.
Young people have raw nerves. They can't talk themselves out of being too emotional. Normally if a person can reach 25 or so they begin to understand how to better react to rejection or just terrible disappointment.
This mother needs to slow it down. One minute she believes being gay is evil, the next she is embracing it. She has a lot of guilt because her reaction.
A good friend just out of high school told his mom he was gay. It went lousy. He came and told me. I just shrugged since I knew that already. His mom could not accept it. The thing is they were so very close and so it hurt bad. I told him give her space and time. It took a few years but all is well. One step at a time. Those that have accepted homosexuality need to give others the respect to find that acceptance on their own terms. We need to stop branding people because they feel different regarding social issues.
"One young man is dead as a direct result of another s actions"
Direct? What did he do stuff the webcam down the other dude's throat? Your perception of justice needs a lot of adjustment.
I absolutely do not see how Ravi is directly responsible for Tyler's death. His spying was a contributing factor in his decision to commit suicide, but suicide is a "personal" decision. Many of us go through difficult things in our lives and do not choose suicide. If my boss yells at me and I commit suicide, is he responsible for my death and basically a "murderer". A really slippery slope holding people responsible for another's suicide.
Ravi's only crime is spying on his roommate. Whatever laws that hold at the time apply, but that is his ONLY crime.
Ravi was charged and convicted appropriately, he wasn't serving time because of Tyler's suicide. Here are the charges that Ravi was brought up on
Frankly, I think the putz got off too easy considering what he did
nps-2941119 You contradict yourself by saying one cannot force another into suicide than say if you thinks so your are as weak minds as this kid. Your weak in intelligence to assume that cannot happen.
I think the kid should have gotten a stiffer sentence but not life. Since he isn't a US citizen they could at least deport him. He was charged with 15 counts(crimes) and convicted on all of them and he gets a whopping 30 days and community service. What's the penalty for jay walking? It' probably harsher.
Okay, backpedaling now. Too many good points. Except for the Iraqi/Afghan one. Unfortunately, it was too light. I still think he should have gotten a harsh sentence even though it could'nt be. nps, you don't even know me so don't assume the outcome of a question.
I agree, no life, but the sentence should be stiffer. He was violating his room mate's privacy, and even making a public show of it. I wish karma actually existed, but sadly, it doesn't. All we can do is hope they either deport him, or rip up any college grants/work he may have done. A young man took his life because Ravi decided he had to out the gay boy. But hey, it's just hazing right? Perfectly acceptable in college, right? Just good fun between college room mates, right?
I think this is why a lot of people are deciding to skip college and just go into the work place now. It's just a bunch of kids that are free of mommy and daddy, and want to act like complete idiots with their newfound freedom. Freedom to bully, freedom to might makes right, freedom to hate whoever, however they want, and never have to face punishment for it. The entire thing just makes me sick...
lol wut? The kid is dead because he had no idea how to cope with adversity and was ashamed of himself. He would have done something like this at some point anyway. Clearly mentally unhinged.
When's the last time you pondered suicide because you were embarrassed? Let's be honest. The dude had SEVERE issues.
Someone spied on someone else via a webcam and you want him to spend the rest of his life in prison? lol. You have severe issues too.
Voyeurism is one of the most celebrated aspects of Western culture. Look at almost all television programming. Look at the profitability of tabloids. Ever heard of Facebook or Twitter? We spend hours a day watching other peoples actions, and we love it. So let's not by hypocritical. The next time a celebrity offs themself I want you to go to prison for the rest of your life. Deal?
nps-2941119......you are ridiculous and show your lack of humanity and understanding. First, what the hell do you think suicide is? It's not about weakness, and that's why as a society we are so f*cked-up.....because of attitudes like yours. Rather than confront our problems, we are shamed into believing we are weak, inferior and broken. Depression is a result in many cases, and suicide is in many cases a further result. Second, you BAFOON....he was a child (do you not know anything about adolescent psychology?) and was only just beginning to learn how to stand on his own two feet.
While I don't believe Ravi "forced" Tyler to kill himself.....it doesn't matter, his choices were a factor in the choice that Tyler made. It's no different from Hate Speech......where someone's words play a factor in violence towards others. That's why conservatives like to push warning labels on music and other entertainment, believing that exposure to that material may be a cause for that same behavior in children.
Get a clue....Ravi made a choice that is a direct cause for Tyler taking his life!
Carsonk, he thought his mom rejected him too. That also was a direct cause of his suicide. So according to you she needs to go to prison too. I mean it's all so clear cut right? Send everyone who was a cause for his self inflicted death to prison.
To rufe. While the situation is tragic, Tyler is not dead because of another's actions. He is dead as the result of his own actions. He didn't have the inner resources to deal with what happened and should have sought the help elsewhere that he apparently felt he couldn't get from his own parents.
The parents and their religion are more responsible for setting the stage for all this than any cyberbully. They are the ones who taught him that homosexuality was unacceptable, thereby causing him to internalize all that self-hatred and depriving him of the valuable support of his family.
Perhaps the parents will feel better blaming it on cyberbullying and setting up their little foundation, but that doesn't change what they did to him. I certainly wouldn't want to face up to my role in my own child's death either.
Cyberbullying is a big problem, but the victims of bullying are often those who feel they deserve it somehow and make easy targets of themselves. Those with self respect will not tolerate such treatment.
Just goes to show you that even he knew what he was doing is wrong... So wrong, in fact, that he chose to off himself rather than face the realization that everybody knows he has an abnormal sexual fetish and those who don't will find out.
On another note... For a bunch of imbeciles who preach darwinism all day long you liberals are a bunch of pathetic wussies when it comes to YOU being the weaker species. Survival of the fittest, right?
They went after him like it was a murder case. It wasn't. If I jumped off a bridge because you spit in my chocolate milk and i drank it and everyone laughed at me, would I be dead as a "direct result" of your actions?
CivilWarrior Americana What an inbred little redneck piglet you are. You don't even make sense. Go steal some copper pipe, snort some more oxycodone with Rush, get out your guns and play Russian roulette with each other.
Even if homosexuality is a sin, who cares? Believers or not, we've all fallen short of perfection and should concentrate on what we can change rather than stress about what we can't.
@ wooddragon-3782447
See my link I posted in my comment at #1.10
Ravi didn't go to jail because he drove a person to kill himself, Ravi was charged for a slew of crimes related to invasion of privacy, harassment, intimidation, witness tampering and more.
Not only did he deliberately invade someone's privacy with malicious intent, but he then tried to cover his tracks and get people to lie to protect his ass after it came out
Ravi wasn't brought up on murder charges or anything asinine like that. The guy was a petty criminal using electronics to spy on someone else...this is no difference than that freak that was spying on Erin Andrews
It sounds like his own family didn't really accept who he was before his death. How sad for this poor young man.
He's absolutely right. God should catch up and stop His bias harassment. After all, we all have a right to go to heaven, don't we? /dripping sarcasm
Response to TK-2141973...Your point about Bush and Obama....in my opinion...yes, they SHOULD be away for life.
Response to TK-2141973...Your point about Bush and Obama....in my opinion...yes, they SHOULD be away for life.
No, Missy Mellissa, you and the authors of this article have missed a bigger point.
We cannot take the sin out of homosexuality because that is its nature. Homosexuals don't commit suicide because human beings tell them that homosexuality is a sin, they commit suicide because they are repulsive to themselves because homosexuality IS a sin.
Suicide is a rejection of God's promise of eternal life, a faithless act that is the moral equivalent to an attempt to murder God. No external opinion can ever drive a person to commit suicide. It is an act that originates in the conscience of the individual, in the self-image of the individual. No person outside of that internal self-image has any bearing on a person's decision to commit suicide.
But homosexuals will continue in denial of the moral wrongness of their behavior. They will continue to spread the lie that bank robbers don't kill because bank robbery is wrong, they kill because society tells them that bank robbery is wrong.
When a liar, the son of the father of lies, speaks a lie, he or she is only doing what comes naturally to every son of the devil--speaking a lie.
Sin is what it is. And the many lies are evidence consistent with our understanding that such behavior is sin. You can't take the sin out of sin. The answer is forgiveness for sin. Denial is useless in the face of sin that is sin.
The Christian message is that Christ died that sins may be forgiven. The homosexual suicide who refuses to believe this has no one to blame but himself/herself. The forgiveness is there. It is offered. It was purchased by a God who so loved the world that he sent His Son to die for us to show us that there is no limit to that love. The human being who rejects this ultimate display of the limitlessness of God's love and His willingness to forgive sin--yes, even the sin of homosexual behavior--has shut the door on his own life.
Suicide is the earnest that proves the reality of hell--the state of being in which a soul rejects communion with God. The damned are self-condemned. There is no one for you to "blame" for their end. It is a self-inflicted punishment for the refusal to believe in the forgiveness of sin.
You can't wave it away with empty, lying words.
Those who are nailed to the cross with Jesus Christ and share in His sufferings unto death will shed not a single tear for the self-condemned who nailed them to the cross and still rejected the forgiveness that was STILL offered to them.
Get right with God and stop this nonsense about re-writing His words.
Wow, there's no arguing with you, and it's not because your argument is so logical.
There's no arguing with you because it's clear that you're so far off the deep end nobody could ever use reason to convince you of anything.
johnny done. Will you please cite the sources of your information? I would like to read these "facts" that you've dregded up and see where they come from.
You see, some of us who dwell in what you probably think of as spiritual darkness prefer to have scientific facts form our view of the world rather than, say, just making things up.
I most emphatically disagree with the dragon. There is no arguing with Wooddragon because his arguments--not at all logical nor even so much as presented--are so clearly already cast in stone.
But his views don't derive from wisdom passed down from ages of human experience, they are just the shallow, ill-considered current fashion bred of selfish preoccupation.
Clearly the dragon is the one who is off the deep end and beyond reason.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH!
Oh that's a good one!
Wisdom passed down through the ages?! HAHAHAHAHAHA!
Did you make sure to stone all of those adulterers, fornicators and people wearing multiple types of fabrics on their way to work this morning?
Did you eat trafe or toil on the sabbath?...because if you did, I think you need to get stoned yourself, LOL...literally, not figuratively!
While you're busy trying to explain the wisdom passed down through the ages, perhaps you'll also explain why you cherry pick which ones you follow and which ones you don't?
wooddragon
Johnny Done is a spambot that floods every forum discussing homosexuality with fake information. It used to be under a different name, but that name was banned for the obvious violation of spamming.
Just report it as spam and they will eventually ban that account as well.
The scientist, so enamored of himself and his much-vaunted "science" cannot even prove the existence of another person (for example, a person to whom he responds) using his "science".
Is is only through spiritual enlightenment that a human being senses the presence of another human being in the written word or the sound of a voice. Science cannot provide any proof for the existence of the other person. Not with all of its tools.
The scientist takes for granted that he speaks to another conscious being when he mocks and ridicules, but he has no scientific basis for assuming that the object of his scorn is aware of it. Only the Spirit can sense the presence of another spirit.
Thus everyone relies on spiritual knowledge in order to function as a human being. The scientist is only unique in pretending that he is above that upon which he routinely relies for his survival.
Thus the truth is that the scientist is in deeper denial than any other kind of person.
"Do not give what is holy to dogs, they will only turn on you and tear you." --Jesus
You see, gentle souls, just how true this is as demonstrated above.
And why I speak to you and not to it.
John116
The Bible, which you glean all our apparent "knowledge", was written by HUMANS... not God. Furthermore, Jesus Christ never once mentioned homosexuality, not one time. I challenge you to find one quote from Jesus that proves me wrong. (Jesus also did not write any parts of the Bible, ALL of it was written by human beings)
Thus, all your views regarding homosexuality stem from what HUMAN BEINGS told you... not God or Jesus.
The fact that you do not know this throws your credibility and intelligence into question.
John116 -- And what are you trying to say again????
Although the webcam idea was despicable and the perpetrator should have received a much heavier sentence, this young man, Tyler, was already heavily burdened by his parents' attitude. I can never understand how people who are so quick to judge and condemn others can call themselves christians. Too sad that someone had to lose his life because of the judgmental and bigoted attitude of others.
Lordy, Lordy.
You are so brainwashed by your Christian beliefs that you can't see what God wants us all to know. That LOVE, above all else - not religion - believing in one man - nothing, is above LOVE. My GOD is not a God to condemn those who don't believe in Jesus Christ, or whomever else you want to believe in. He, She, IT, is an entity that LOVES ALL that has been created. No God (BTW who is perfect, right?) would create an imperfect being, and then spank them and send them to hell because of our "sins". MY God is one who is understanding, and knows that we will make mistakes, and that we are weak. He does not send unborn baby's that haven't been baptized into a place for unsaved souls, he doesn't send individuals to hell for committing suicide, or for being gay. And, he also forgives you for believing in a falsehood, called Christianity. Have you ever looked up how much HATE and BIGOTRY have been created by organized religion? How many WARS have been caused by it? And to think, it's all in the name of GOD. BS. Also, about re-writing his words....how about you check out how many times your Bible has been rewritten by man....How many times has it been changed, so that it can benefit those that are preaching the words? I am good person, who loves life, loves to help those in need, and needs not be told that I must believe in a book to have eternal life. Step outside your little box for a minute, and realize that you have been brainwashed. Do you not see, that YOUR idea of God, is keeping the world from being a better place? I for one, will chose to embrace good people, to love those that need it, and I will NOT agree with your backwards principles. And you know what, I bet 10 to 1, that God agrees with me. (Did I just sin by betting you????) LOL, but we'll just have to wait to find out won't we?
My condolences to the Clementi Family, and let's all love one another, and take the "sin" out of homosexuality. (BTW, I'm not gay, I just accept others. Isn't that what your Bible teaches you?)
Just out of curiosity, Ryan, what does your God send individuals to hell for and why?
JimC: oh, maybe for judging others.
Jim
Ryan's God seems more Godly than yours. Consider current Christian beliefs... that the ONLY way to get into Heaven is to accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior.
So what about the people that YOUR GOD placed on this earth BEFORE Jesus? What about people that YOUR GOD placed on this earth in an area where the word of Jesus had not spread? (Like native Americans before Christianity crossed the ocean) What about the people placed in areas cut off from the Christian world? (Like parts of Asia and Africa) What of people that die before missionaries reach them?
According to your belief... your "all knowing" God knowingly placed all of these people in a time and place in which he knew the word of Jesus would not reach them. He knowingly placed millions upon millions of people on this earth, knowing they would never hear the name Jesus, and thus not be able to "accept" him into their hearts... condemning them all to hell, with no chance at salvation. He knowingly placed "his children" on this earth, knowing they would go straight to hell upon death, with ZERO chance at being saved.
THAT is modern Christian belief. Does that sound like a good God? Does that sound like a loving God?
Are you saved because you believe? Or because you were LUCKY to be born in a time and place where the word of Jesus could reach your ears? What if you were born to a native American before Christianity crossed the ocean? Would you just be unlucky? Sorry... doomed to hell, no matter what you do in life... sucks to be you.
Of course, I don't really expect you to answer me. Most Christians can not comprehend this paradigm, and refuse to acknowledge it. I suspect it is because acknowledging this issue throws their entire belief system into question.
I invite you NOT to assume that all Christians are like John116. I belong to a church which believes that it is critical to “resist evil, injustice, and oppression in whatever forms they present themselves.”
The most important Christian "doctrine" I grew up with and try to live by is, "Love." If we each tried to improve the world just a tiny bit, using "love" as our foundation and guiding principle, I can't imagine how different the world would be.
I'd sure like to try, though, seeing how different the world could be, and living in a loving environment!
Now people are blaming Christians for this guys suicide! Wow. This logic is.....incompehensible. Many faiths teach absolutes--"do this, don't do this." In fact, even secular ideology has its tenets of "right" and "wrong". For example, I think both secularists and people of faith agree that pedophilia is wrong. We teach it this value to our children. If your child grows up to be a pedophile, breaking the teaching you gave him, and gets caught, you tell him how upset you are, right???? If he feels terrible, guilty, conflicted, depressed about this, and decides to commit suicide, does that mean YOU are at fault because you had the nerve to pass on your values and beliefs to your child?
The same logic carries over to murder, theft, cheating on each other, etc. Are you saying we have no right to teach our values to our children? We have no right to feel honest feelings of disappointment when the don't live up to them?
Are you saying that if "everybody does it" that should be the bar by which we decide something is right or wrong?
Are you saying that if enough pedophiles band together and say that they have a right to express their sexuality the way they want, that we should all roll over and agree to that?!
Can some of us still dare to disagree in this supposedly free society we live in?
wooddragon if you just do a search for " gay suicides increase in neatherlands " you will find some well documented studies about what jonny done posted.
He may be a spammer but the info apears to be correct.
Edit button does not work, Newsvine. So I will add here:
Many people still feel strongly that homosexuality is unnatural. Wrong. Not the way our bodies were designed. A perversion (Gasp! I said a politically incorrect opinion!). And not just religious people feel this way--plenty of others do too. But now are we to feel silenced by this accusation that stating our view will cause people to kill themselves? And we should be punished?
This is absurd. You all sound like tyrants. The worst form of thought policing.
Lisa: how do you get "blaming Christians for gay suicides"? Um, Ravi is HINDU!!!!!
@ Lisa-256867
You're all over the place with your post, but I get your gist.
First, pedophilia is not between consenting adults, therefore there is a victim...therefore your attempt to group it with homosexuality is both flawed and offensive.
Next, people aren't blaming Christianity for the suicide, they're blaming this person's deranged family for creating an atmosphere that would have the now-deceased ostracized from the family if he came out...so he lived in secret. There are plenty of Christian families with gay relatives and children, and many of them are accepting...this is one of the extreme cases where it was likely the opposite.
Absolutely! Just be prepared to receive a response and a possible tongue-lashing for bigoted and biased viewpoints.
dslsca--I wasn't referring to Ravi at all. I was referring to previous posts (read them) and the inference of the article that anyone who refers to homosexuality as a sin (as Christians do) bears guilt for making gays feel bad and depressed and conflicted (like his mother), so we should stop calling it "sin".
I don't believe love means pretending that there is no sin, and everybody can do whatever and we have to accept it. I believe love means acknowledging "wrong" for what it is, but loving the person who has missed the mark (as we all have) and helping them find the mark again. That is true love.
Personally, I believe homosexuality is a sin, but that does not mean in any way that LGBT people should be treated as any less than human. They have a right to privacy as well and what Ravi did was wrong. However, I think, as other people have stated as well, that Ravi's role in installing that webcam and telling everyone about his roommate's intimate moment played only a small part in what was clearly an avalanche waiting for a trigger. The webcam incident was simply a trigger; Tyler was clearly a emotionally unstable young man and was struggling mentally.
Lisa: if I could vote you up a thousand times I would, and btw., people, just giving an opinion about something does not make one a bigot!!!!!!!!
@ redwhiteandblue15
Agreed, I don't blame the suicide on Ravi
suseq1591 - stating your opinion doesn't make you a bigot. Stating bigoted statements makes you a bigot. Comprehend the difference!?
I've seen a lot of comments regarding homosexuallity and very few were mean or hateful, people want to use what we say about the subject (even tho we are just stating that we feel it is wrong, like Carrie Prejean) as an excuse to hate Christians!!!
@Lisa: Couldn't have said it better myself.
Reasonable--True.
If one rejects a person and is unkind to them because we are angry at their wrong choice, and we lock them out of our homes or refuse to let them in restaurants, and are just plain mean-- that is wrong no matter who you are talking about. But I can still love you and at the same time disagree with the lifestyle you're living. Believe me, in my family there are all sorts of lifestyles that are being indulged in that I think are wrong, but I still love my family.
From what I've experienced--at least on these posts--is that I can be classified as a bigot simply for not believing the way you do. Stating that I think what someone is doing is off the mark is not bigoted. And if I think it's off the mark, I do not want it institutionalized and taught as "normal."
I thought this was all water under the bridge. I remember when Ravi was a Shankar. Oh well, the times they are a changin'.
Ok. So, homosexuals don't kill themselves because they're bullied, it's because they know they're horrible people. So, please explain to me, then, what the reason is for straight kids committing suicide after being bullied? How does your logic apply to a child who is bullied because of how they look? Kids think they're ugly so they're picked on day after day, and finally can't take it anymore. This happens all the time. Did that child somehow do something to make them repulsive to themselves, too? Was it their fault they were born with eyes that were two different colors? Was it their fault they were born with a birthmark on their face? Please, tell me how your logic applies to non-homosexuals. Because if gays don't kill themselves for being picked on, neither so straight people so explain all the straight suicides.
johnny drone,
Other homophobes have posted your crap and they are based on anti-gay or ex-gay websites with no evidence of their statistics and their junk research boarders on cliché (distant father, dominering mother... etc. Most gay people grew up in happy homes with no tramatic events in their lives and there are numerous people throughout their generations who have suffered traumas, like sexual molestation and assult (which I'm assuming is what you mean in the first place) that are straight and have families of their own. Gays that grew up in accepting families are just as emotionally stable and have no more of a desire to commit suicide than any straight person. If a person, regardless of sexual orientation, was raised in an abusive enviroment, especially a religious one where their upbringing can conflict with the real world, they tend to grow up with emotional pain, even if they are devout. I've had feelings for guys since I was young and I wasn't in an abusive home, didn't get recruited, know of no traumatic events and have never been molested. I'm also not in any lifestyle that is any different than a hetrosexual's.
Your ex-gay/anti-gay sources are not reliable because the first part of ex-gay therapy is to drill guilt and religious indoctrination to convince them to stay and were pushed to go to them by their church or family. Their therapies are known to be simular to interrogation techniques that were outlawed in US law enforcement, like waterboarding in ice cold bathtubs, pain and illness inducing drugs and electrotrodes while viewing same-sex erotic images. Reparative therapy has a very low success rate since most who actually remains through their sessions come out more emotionally and psychologically damaged and they aren't actually able to enter any real relationship because the opposite sex still doesn't turn them on and are too closeted to be with someone they are truely attracted to.
Exodus poster boy John Paulik is married to a woman, sure, but after the scandal of being caught at a gay nightclub, his position is not the same. You don't spend 40 minutes to an hour at a gay bar just to use the restroom. If one has to use therapy and prayer to maintain their hetrosexuality, they aren't hetrosexual, no matter how they identify themselves. As of this month, Exodus International has denounced reparative therapy because it has been determined to be ineffective by their own staff.
I won't answer you, not because I can't, but because you asked me a question then proceeded to tell me what I am thinking and answered on my behalf...how very kind of you. I asked because from what I am seeing, people seem to think that Christians ought to be able to tell God who gets in and who stays out. I'm fairly sure that if the Christian Bible is correct then it doesn't work that way. It's not the Christians who are condemning anyone to an eternity in hell, it's the God that Christians believe. If God does, indeed, have the power to send souls to hell, then I'm guessing that we can criticize all we want but it won't make Him change His mind.
Is it hateful to yell "fire" (if I perceive a fire) to someone who doesn't believe in fire? If not, if Christians believe that someone is living what they perceive to be a sinful life, those Christians warning those who sin about the possible consequences of their actions is nothing more than the "fire" warning.
What I don't get is the recent demands that Christians change God's rules as if they had that authority. Even if man "invented" God 6k years ago, those who believe what they perceive to be "the Word of God" can't censor the Word because some find it offensive. If you don't like the movie, don't go, but don't deny others their right to go.
Maybe the dumb bigots should simply grow up and learn to deal with the fact that some folks are gay and other folks are straight?
They really need to grow up before they find that they're the parent of a dead kid, or the roommate of a dead kid.
The kid was a sissy and would have killed himself anyway. The other guy performed an illegal voyeuristic act and can be punished for that, but nor punished for murder. Maybe we shouldn't do things we are ashamed of.
CivilWarrior Americana, you're suspended for a month for violating #1 of the Code of Honor. You know the rules.
...
wooddragon-3782447, you're suspended for a week for violating #1 of the Code of Honor. Don't deathwish fellow commenters.
...
johnny done banned, rereg of comment spammer TrueLGBT.
DADT
Doesn't work. Bigots need to get over themselves
People need to understand yes, you are free to do whatever you want including smoking pole, but others also free to comment and laugh about it.
Yes, but not activate a remote camera and invade his privacy to the point he felt he could not face anyone. Laughing about something you know is going on to your friends and putting up a camera and remotely watching it from another room and tweeting for all to see is another.
TK-2141973 - Bigot says what?
Yep, you can be as small-minded as you like, but once you start shooting footage in someone else's bedroom and sharing it, you are no longer commenting and laughing, you are invading their privacy.
I am a heterosexual female and I would be devasted if someone did this to me. It's just inexcusable.
Relying to Brenda 1964
" . . . Christian beliefs don't leave much room for homosexuality. . . . "
What group of "Christians" do not "leave much room for homosexuality" ? This is hateful. Are you better than people with same-gender preference, and are you free from sin - ?
Any time you speak about homosexuality and Christianity you will end in conflict. The Bible is very specific from Moses to Paul that it's not just a sin, but an abominable act. Although Jesus does not mention the word specifically, he does say what the Divine intentions were regarding the sexes. So true adherents of the Writ are not being hateful...some however, that have read, fail to exercise love in truth...But if you will speak of sin...there are degrees of sin just as there are degrees of crime...hence, if you robbed a bank of millions or if you took candy out of a store without paying for it...in either case, you are still a thief.
Yes, Rhema. You have stated it clearly and well. Sometimes people (from both sides of the issue) can be harsh and act in a hateful manner with those who they feel are wrong. But believing something is wrong is not in and of itself "hateful."
Christians need to know that no one "sin" is worse than another but they are called to be merciful to sinners, since we all guilty of something and needing forgiveness.
But if we are truly honest with ourselves, we know that if we are doing something we've been taught is wrong, and we do not want to give it up admit our wrong, we will feel as if even the most gently correction is "hatred." The more we resist, the more conflicted we feel. After awhile of this, we must come up with rationalizations for what we are doing to ameliorate the guilt. We find others who agree with us and we fight back, forcing the "rule-makers" (whether it is religion, civic law, parents, teachers, or institutions) to change the rules because we won't (or can't--as in addiction) change our ways. Then the rule-makers become evil and we, the lawbreakers, become victims.
This pattern is as old as mankind.
Would you apply the same argument to interracial marriage or maybe the Civil Rights Movement of the 1950's in general. The Jim Crow Laws were laws, and interracial marriage was illegal until the Supreme Court decision in Loving v. Virginia
...were those laws being changed to appease the "wrong-doers" as well?
Where in your philosophy do you differentiate for the existence of religious-based persecution and oppression of a minority?
Is it only when it might apply to your immediate demographic?
Seriously--this is a well-hashed argument, and we will probably just have to agree to disagree. But please don't have me put in jail for my opinion. I feel race and sexual preferences are two entirely different things. Race is genetic. And the core of this argument by those who can't accept homosexuality is the the belief that sexual preference is a choice, not genetic. It may be influenced by family and psychological issues, it may be so entrenched that it feels like it can't be helped, but still a choice. In that sense, it is closer to the pedophile issue than the race issue.
Just because being gay doesn't "hurt anybody" and is consensual, does not mean it is normal sexual behavior. It is not the way our bodies are designed.
I copied this from a previous post, and it underscores my point:
Ex-Gay Says Homosexuality Caused By His Emotional Trauma Starting at Age 6:
Author and AIDS victim Jerry Arterburn said: "I was involved in the homosexual world as a blatant attempt to obtain the affection from other men that I did not receive from my own father." (from his autobiography "How Will I Tell My Mother?")
Due to his sensitive nature, he was more deeply affected than most boys when his own father rejected him early in life. Without a loving father figure, he yearned for affection from other boys by the age of six. His yearning became sexualized at puberty. He said being abused or severely neglected in childhood was "too common a thread to ignore" in the gay community and his female mannerisms were due to his mother, his only role model. He was NOT born gay.
I have met and heard from several gays own mouths that their own journey into homosexuality started from an unhealthy familial situation. This is sad, but not reversable.
Lisa: what does it matter how homosexuality is incurred? I can see only three ways: people are born that way, people acquire it, or people choose it. In none of those instances is discrimination against the people justified. You wouldn't condone discrimination against people who are born redheaded or left-handed. You wouldn't condone discrimination against people who acquire an amputation. You wouldn't condone discrimination against people who choose to be vegetarians or choose to be Christians.
Please don't try to even attempt discount my opinions by trying to lump me in with morons that want to make things illegal that other people disagree with. Only one of us here is advocating for making rights inclusive and uniform...and I think I can safely assume that you are probably against gay marriage...so which side does that place you?
Well, I can't change how you feel, but considering that you could very well be wrong, does that also potentially change your conclusion that you reach based on whether you feel that sexual preference is not genetic/predisposed.
Regardless, as dslsca cleverly points out:
Also, Lisa-256867, you also choose to be Christian don't you...what civil rights should you have removed/not recognized depending on state? What if it is by popular vote to remove such a right? That's the will of the people after all.
And as for your last quote
Based on what? How are you the expert on how our bodies are "designed" and still, why should it matter? You even point out how it bears no impact on you...so why go the extra distance to support laws the oppress this minority.
Lisa, Just because you think it is wrong doesn't make it wrong. That is why they are called opinions. Only God makes that decision. Everyone else should mind their own business.
So basically, if I understand you correctly, Lisa is not titled to have an opinion and to state that opinion, but you are. She has the right to think something is wrong, and to say that she thinks it is wrong. You have the right to think that something is wrong and say that it is wrong. That's pretty much the definition of an opinion.
Clearly seriously- look at the male anatomy ... the anus is not DESIGNED for anything but defecation . It's not a sex organ. It's not meant for what gays use it for.
At least admit the obvious. Deviancy is deviancy, just because YOU think its normal does not make it so.
Lisa ... quoting from that posting doesn't give you much credibility. I suspect that visitor is the same one who has posted previously under at least two others names because he repeated posts the same material, material without any supporting background and selectively quoted to meet his agenda.
He comes up with ONE supposed "ex-gay" who claims that homosexuality was caused by "trauma" and somehow that outweighs what millions of gays will tell you ... that they had well-adjusted, happy childhoods and were not "recruited" into being gay.
So then explain why more heterosexuals engage in anal sex than gays do.
Guess that makes those heterosexuals (and there are apparently thousands, if not millions, of them) deviates, too.
Straight people use their asses for sexual pleasure, too. Lots of women love receiving anal sex. Are you going to try and stop them from letting their husbands do it because you think it's wrong? If it's not meant for pleasure why do so many people, male and female, experience pleasure from it, yet they don't feel that same pleasure when defecating?
Thank you Ready 2. Look, to be honest, in any society, our laws are based on someone's opinion. Sometimes there is some science behind the laws, but much of the time is based on philosophy or ideology. Your opinion or mine. In our society, we vote and majority rules. Supposedly. Somebody wins, and everyone else has to live with it until the next time. Point is, your arguments ARE based on opinion as much as mine are. I could just as easily say "what right do you have to tell me that your views are correct and mine are wrong?"
Yes, it's up to God. And there's some pretty clear indication about how He feels about it in the "instructor's manual" he's given us. If you believe He's the creator, than you believe He has the right to tell us how he created the body to be used--or not used.
If the majority of this society ends up rejecting that, so be it. But if you believe in the creator, it's really grasping at straws to try to argue that He accepts homosexuality as the normal way.
In the end, we all fight for what we believe in, don't we?
Barry, I used that quote because it was in line with-as I said-not just one but several homosexual acquaintances who admitted that same. I suspect although I can't prove that psychological causes are more the case than not.
My argument in all my posts is not "should we discriminate against gays" but "Is homosexuality normal sexual behavior?" How one answers that question has a lot of implications as to how you want society to deal with it. If I don't consider it normal, do I want it taught to my son in school as if it is "normal?" etc.
Lisa, you and John Drone (r placed in there on purpose) found your junk from an anti-gay websites like The AFA that makes up their findings or used dubious statistics based on the experiences of a few people and lumped them up with everyone else with same-sex feelings. Stereotypes aren't valid statistics and your "instructor's manual" aren't facts and people are rejecting the likes of you and your "good book" more and more over time.
WRONG, Lisa. We are not a country of majority rule, since the tyranny of the majority will deny rights to the minority.
Only if you believe in God -- and everyone does NOT.
Ready2change - you will notice, I didn't express an opinion! or judge.
Healthy debate is always a good thing. Lisa - Please research the history of homosexuality and when it was removed from the list of mental disorders or diseases. Also, not everyone is homosexual from bad family situations, most are just homosexuals. You see, there is a full spectrum of light, this is undeniable correct? There is a full spectrum of color is this undeniable? Why wouldn't there be a full spectrum of sexuality?
Hey, everyone, Lisa forms her opinions through an invisible dude way up in the sky that she's never met and has no real proof actually exists.
We probably should not get too upset with her, she can't help herself.
Lisa, I feel horrible for your son. I do hope he finds people in his life that he can turn to someday just in case. I feel a lot of rejection in his/your future.
@Lisa
The Holy Bible condones slavery, incest, infanticide, misogyny and genocide. Religionists can't have it both ways. It's obvious you aren't killing children for disobedience*, what's more you allow women to teach and to speak in church** (forbidden in both Testaments), so it is entirely animus towards homosexuals, not belief in Scripture that motivates you. As for your paternalistic mantra, "Love sinner, hate the sin", it is impossible to hate what we are without de facto hating us into the bargain.
If 'Religious Belief' is based on the Holy Bible, please take a moment to check out what else this venerated book commands. Do you believe all this too?
DEUTERONOMY 13:13-17 A town that allows the practice of more than one religion is burned to the ground and all its inhabitants and livestock slaughtered with swords.
* DEUTERONOMY 21:18-21 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother... then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones.
DEUTERONOMY 22:13-21 A woman not a virgin on her wedding night must be executed
DEUTERONOMY 22:22 If a married person has sex with someone else's husband or wife, both adulterers be stoned to death
DEUTERONOMY 22:28-29 A virgin who is raped must marry her rapist.
DEUTERONOMY 25:11-12 If a man gets into a fight with another man and his wife seeks to rescue her husband by grabbing the enemy's genitals, her hand shall be cut off and no pity shall be shown her
MARK 10:1-12 Divorce is strictly forbidden in both Testaments, as is remarriage of anyone who has been divorced
MARK 12:18-27 If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir
LEVITICUS 11:6-8 outlaws the playing of football (touching the skin of a dead pig)
LEVITICUS 11:9-12 eating shellfish or pork strictly forbidden
LEVITICUS 18:19 A married couple who have sexual intercourse during a woman's period shall both be executed.
LEVITICUS 19:19 may not wear polyester cotton shirts (wearing garments of mixed fabrics forbidden)
* LEVITICUS 20:9 anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death.
LEVITICUS 26:14-30 "Then if you walk contrary to me …you shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters."
NUMBERS 15:32,35 While the people of Israel found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day, the Lord said to Moses, "The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses."
** TIMOTHY 2:12 "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence"
PROVERBS 19:2 and he that hasteth with his feet sinneth (running and therefore all athletic sports are a sin)
** CORINTHIANS 14:34 Women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be submissive, as the law also says.
COLOSSIANS 3:22 "Slaves, obey your human masters in everything; don't work only while being watched, in order to please men, but work wholeheartedly, fearing the Lord."
Ummmm....if he had a girl in the room, do you still think it was right to spy on his encounter and laugh about it? Do you think it is right to post each act on Twitter for everyone to see? Would you still think that if it was your daughter in the room? Tyler asked his roommate for some privacy. He did the polite thing. It was WRONG of his roommate to spy with the webcam whether he was in the room with a man, a woman or by himself. It was WRONG to broadcast everything like a sporting event. As a result, he committed suicide. Being gay is not the humiliating factor, having someone narrate your date as part of their comedy routine is.
News flash:
No one really gives a rat's ass about what the Christian bible has to say about anything except you Christian bible thumpers.
You can quote your bible ad nauseum and it won't change anyone's mind.
Plus the fact that no one's opinion of homosexuality has any bearing on this case.
@ Lisa-256867
You can hold your bible up as infallible and sacred, and still hypocritically cherry-pick the parts from it you like and handily ignore the parts that you don't.
The US has a separation of church and state for a reason. The nation itself was founded by people fleeing religious tyranny.
Why on earth do you think it is important to prevent gays from marrying. You yourself even mention that it has no direct impact on you. So why would you, and others with your mindset go about trying to have government bow to your RELIGIOUS IDEOLOGIES?
Do you not also recognize the kind of dangerous precedent it sets to craft and uphold laws that have no basis on the founding philosophy of safeguarding the welfare of the people and upholding the public good, but instead simply drafting them because they conform to a particular cluster of bible quotes you hold dear?
Do you want to live in a theocracy?! Why don't you take a look at the countries that are theocracies and move to one of those and see what it's like!
Why don't you step outside of your narrow framework for a moment and turn things around...what happens if you are in a theocracy and YOU are the minority? Why not be a Coptic Christian in Egypt and see what it's like!
My heart goes out to the Clementi family and my sincere thanks for their extraordinary bravery during a very challenging time. I am reminded, in some ways, of the Matthew Shepard family. I am encouraged by their change and hopeful that it will lead to even greater change for the good of all of us.
I am so sorry that the Clementi family lost their wonderful son. When I first read about this story, I was so saddened that this young man was made to feel so badly that he took his own life.
Amen Escamama. This family lost a son, regardless of his sexual orientation.
I can't help but wonder why so many people are threatened by homosexuality. It has been around for as long as we have, as well as in other species.
What a bunch of self-righteous BS has been spewn out here. Are any of you so perfect that you can judge anyone else? Is that what your religion teaches you?
If so I want no part of it.
Indigokid--again, saying something is "wrong" is not in and of itself "self-righteousness." It's all in how you do it, of course. You are right that often people are harsh with each other when someone does something wrong. I bet if you look at your own life, when someone has broken a rule that you believe strongly in, that maybe you even get a little harsh or self-righteous at times?
This is something we have to work on in ourselves, but that does not mean we throw away the fact that some things are just not right, and we have the responsibility to say so. Just do it in love, and don't reject the person from your life.
Wow, lots of Christians who sprew hatred. What does you bible say about that? People like you turn people away from God not towards him.
I have seen very few hateful comments about gays on this board, more hateful comments about Christians I think, or do you live in a box???
Deb
I'm sorry, but I think you are proving my point. Just three lines up from your post, "people like me" (myself) have written when you disagree "do it in love, and don't reject the person"-- and I have said it in many ways, over and over. But you have proven my point that if I have a different point of view than you, you consider it hatred. To repeat, I can love my son, my family and my friends, AND I can kindly but clearly disagree with their choices. They are not mutually exclusive. That is the goal I strive for.
Lisa, does your son visit you for the holiday?
Yes. Let's not argue about nonsense-how many angels if you believe in them dance on the pin heads who read the bible according to their own narrow notions. I wrote a poem for Tyler and published it on my site. The point being who is anyone to judge another-isn't that what Jesus said. So stop throwing stones in glass houses. There is no such thing as "norm" in the way it is discussed here--only what is accepted or not by those who are able to exact their will on others. That society=not biology-as sexual fluidity is the real norm curtailed by other human beings who are in pwoer to do so.
You betcha. He knows I love him. :)
Wow--are you saying that if a parent acts like a parent and teaches their child their values and corrects them when they stray from them, then that child will never want to come home again?
Of course, AS I SAID, when the child is grown you have to back off. But they still know how you feel because--you raised them for 18 years. You don't have to say it, they know.
Parents, if your child discloses his/her homosexuality to you, FIRST be loving....If it comes as a shock, say you're surprised and that you are not sure how you feel, but that you love this son/daughter and will make every effort to work through your feelings. Encourage open communication. Thank him/her for being honest and sharing what has to be extremely difficult and risky. If your first reaction is dismay and rejection, you may never get a second chance to react.
Cassandra
So true. We should not throw stones. Jesus' meaning is that we all have sins and cannot consider ourselves better than others. Having said that, you can't skip the part that Jesus said next "Go, and sin no more." Was he a hater or a bigot because He said that? No, I believe he said it in love, but he didn't say it's okay, we can all commit adultery now.
It's true that as a democratic society, we can to some degree choose our laws and establish societal norms, as per majority opinions. But it's a poor choice of words to view it as those who win elections are "exacting their will on others." That's what kings and tyrants do with their edicts and proclamations and bans and executive orders. But if the majority goes a certain way on their own, than so be it. But there will always be the dissenters who have a right to their opinions.
WRONG, Lisa. We are not a democracy, nor are we a country of majority rule.
Go to civics class.
Lisa
The fact that you think you" have a responsibility to tell people that certain things are not right "shows you to be very arrogant.
And suseq, there are plenty of hateful comments about gays here.
Those self-righteous Christians who state that gay people are sinning and will be judged by God for their "sin" are in my opinion making hateful comments.
This kid was a fruitcake before the webcam incident. Mom and Dad just looking for someone to blame. Sorry your kid had issues but maybe you should have addressed them before you sent him off to college. Guess LBGT was wrong. It doesn't get better.
Too bad the young man is dead. Maybe if his parents had spent sometime with him he would have been stronger.
Sorry you turned out to be such a horrible person. How you think it's okay to even type that is beyond me.
Well since Tyler had two suicide attempts before the incident I would say he was just improving on his plans. Any other questions or are you just going with the PC facts in the case?
There are millions of people suffering around the world but struggle to survive. People who commit suicide, especially with all of his bennies in life, are just not going to make it. Gay, straight, or cross-dresser.. the real issues and inner torment this kid went through marked him well before this incident.
To call Clementi a, "Fruitcake," is both sad and hateful. Life does get better for LGBT individuals as they mature and learn to stand up to vile attacks like yours.
What a nasty thing to say. Seriously -- FRUITCAKE?!?! And piling on the parents? His mother acknowledges that her views have changed as a result of the tragedy, so there is hope that some good will come from something awful. Let's hope that's the case.
PAV...you REALLY are a f*cking imbecile you know that? Let me give you a little factoid: I'm also a PAV, but the difference between you and I is that I took the oath (and two bullets in combat) to not only support and defend the Constitution of the United States, but also lend my strength to those who are not.
To say "let the weak fend for themselves" is VERY UNAmerican in my eyes and you my friend are an embarrassment to me all all those who served. You are the gemstone paradigm of the typical arrogant prick American who is afraid of those who are different and completely lack the mental capacity to want to even TRY to understand.
Now go have some humble pie and come back to the discussion when you can act like a human being instead of another foaming-at-the-mouth homophobe.
DSP - CAPT/USNR
OilmanMD - Well said!
All I can say is I hope your name is fake. I'd hate to think ANY of our 'finest' were the likes of you.
I am sorry that your parents failed you and you turned out to be such a hateful person.
OilmanMD
Your post is right on the money. There is no room for more bigotry and hatred in America; too much hate and division already infects our society. This young deserved better from his peers.
Proud America Veteran. You don't write like you are a father. If so not a very good one. I hope and pray you are not.
Mom's rejection of gay son was probably the main reason Tyler commited suicide. Re-writing history so they can live with themselves.
Clementi's parents are learning from history, not re-writing it. They are learning the importance of accepting people as they are instead of judging them.
Pathetic comment. Did your parents have any kids that lived?
Or...maybe now they realized they should have reacted differently and are trying to help other parents react differently. Parents make mistakes.
If I looked that much like my mother, I would have committed suicide also!
I totally agree with "realist1111". The Clementi's are in denial that their actions and
thier rejections caused Tyler to be ashamed and keep himself. However, It makes me sick to continueous read articles written be uneducated journalists who link the actions of Dharun Ravi to the actions of Tyler Clementi. If you are so naive to believe that the actions of a stranger can cause an adult to kill themselves..then you are a fool. If you watch the VOICE AWARDS, tylers brother ADMITS he as well was rejected by his family because of his homosexuality. Mrs Clementi is a poor excuse for a mother to keep this charade going and to pin a henious tradegy on a young man, who in Tylers own words, did not bother him. Get the facts before you write bull@!$%#.
Carl, look up "SHALLOW".
just because he didn't find it does not prove this theory is true. Most gays know who they are attracted to. others don't find out or refuse to admit they are attractive to the same sex. If you are not gay you have no business declaring such a stupid theory or believing it. As been stated before why would somone want to be gay. they deal with narrow minded people who either say it's a sin (judge not lest you be be judged) like yourself who has no idea about being gay and this person who says it's from trauma in children. Give me a break.
You like who you like no use in denying that.
"Lesbian activist Camille Paglia said: "Homosexuality is not 'normal.' On the contrary it is a challenge to the norm...Nature exists whether academics like it or not. And in nature, procreation is the single relentless rule. That is the norm. Our sexual bodies were designed for reproduction...No one is born gay. The idea is ridiculous..."
Johnny Drone,
Your "lesbian activist" was described as a "anti-feminist feminist" who's twisted views not only conflict with known facts, but even with her other views. She's a walking oxy-moron and doesn't speak for either the feminists, liberals/libertarians or the gay community. And why should we take anything you copy from anti-gay websites seriously. I've read the same bull@!$%# from at least four other homophobes on other blog sites who copy and paste from religiously biased organization websites that have been denounced by accredited psychological associations.
If it is a sin--then why do "Holy Men" like Priests do it???????????
Because we all sin - including the Priests. I will be the first to admit it. Best thing we can do is to manage our own lives and leave others alone.....
There's a difference between pedophilia and homosexuality (priests have molested girls as well). Stop connecting the two! That's just as big an issue as calling homosexuality a sin. Just because a man is gay does not mean he wants to molest little boys! There are more straight men molesting children than there are gay men!
Not the same thing at all...the priests in the news are pedophiles not gay. There is a difference. I am sure there are gay priest too, but the ones you read about abusing kids are pedophiles, big difference. AND the church doesn't condone either one although there appeared to be a cover up. Those are the exceptions and not the norm. Every group will have an element within, that is outside of the morals of the group and to point to those exceptions as the norm is wrong.
Excellent point. Nice work.
Those Preists are an abomination !!!!!
"Because we all sin"
I dunno a lot of sins are so arbitrary. Say if I stole from the rich and gave it to the poor, would that still be considered a sin? or if I shot and killed the pedophile who molested 10 kids. Besides, sins are different between religions.
Stealing is a sin whether the victim is rich or poor and vigilantism isn't so kosher either.
Just to be clear, there are plenty of gay Catholic priests who are active homosexuals. It's called "The Lavender Maffia" and an open secret in most seminaries.
Because...maybe...they're sinners, too! Duh!
But if we aren't using government to legislate our brand of bigotry and religious zeal, how are we going to feel justified that we're doing the right thing by oppressing minorities we are told to despise?
Seriously?
Do you realize this can work both ways? I mean...using the government to legislate against those who cannot accept homosexuality? Oppressing their freedom of religion or the right to a different opinion from whoever is writing the laws (or news articles?)
I think the priest example is a good one. Priests molesting, raping or having sex with boys is clearly wrong. Not only because they are taking away the innocence of a child, but because they are participating in gay sex. What else would you call in.
Lisa, how is the government legislating against you? If you don't want to be gay, don't be gay. If you are against gay marriage, don't have one. I fail to see how you are being oppressed.
You can be as racist, xenophobic, amoral and repugnant as you want in the safety of your church, I would never require that your church marry groups of people that it does not want to.
But the decision-making and beliefs of your church are to stay within the confines of said establishment.
Not you, not I, nor should anyone's religious beliefs be foisted upon everyone else.
Homosexuals are not allowed to get married in a fashion that is legally recognized across the entirety of the US based on reasons ultimately stemming from religious institutions. That is oppression of a minority based on an establishment of religion.
I don't care if your church doesn't want to marry gays, I do care when the state itself will not legally recognize a gay marriage because it would offend your church...BIG DIFFERENCE
I pray for all our sakes that some other (far more) hostile religious institution doesn't one day exploit the blurring lines of separation of church and state to exercise even more barbaric and outlandish forms of oppression based on their arbitrary yet infallible sacred-texts
Oh, Deb no. Pedophilia has NOTHING to do with "gay sex", to use your phrase.
Pedophiliacs, whether priests or not, aren't participating in any kind of sex at all. And they are certainly not in any kind of relationship, which between two adults should be just that--between two adults.
Adults who rape and molest children are very sick people.
What any one person deems a "sin" is subjective in my book.
Is it possible that this 18 year old college freshman felt degraded by losing his virginity to a 35 year old internet predator and perhaps that contributed to his suicide as well? Why has no one tried to hold the 35 year old internet sex troll accountable AT ALL in this??
Excellent question.
Not sure what you mean by "internet predator"; that kind of language is usually employed to describe people who haunt the web trying to nab children for sex. Having sex with an 18 year old adult is a perfectly legal activity.
Allow me to explain how things work in the real world. Older does not mean "predator." I'm 45 and I've been getting hit on by 18-24 year-olds ALL the time since I turned 40. Believe me, I'm not the one making any kind of initial contact. Dating that young has very, very few benefits and gets real annoying real fast.
Blame "daddy complex" issues, blame today's family dynamic, blame the parents, blame the internet. Blame whoever you want, but the reality of the situation is that a LOT of young guys seek out older men.
I'm not trying to boast or brag. In fact, I would urge parents to get to a level with their kids where they can talk about what type of partners they're seeking out. Your kid might be nice. Your kid might be smart. But when your kid is hitting on someone 20-something years older than he is, your kid is pretty much only good for one thing at that point. And that thing isn't money or a thriving social life. No one my age is looking to settle down with a college student for more than one night.
Funny after noticing your screen name. The last time this happened was two weeks ago while on a business trip in WA. Kid was a college student visiting his grandmother while school was out. I can guarantee that I turned him down but I can't guarantee the next guy did. Know your kids, parents. Young and easy isn't always so flippantly dismissed.
I don't know if that is true. I met my partner when I was in college and 22 years old. He was 49 years old. It is now 19 years later. I do not need to depend on him for anything. We are a team. However, he has been great since I had knee surgery.
My former boss married her husband (after having known him for only 17 days) when she was 24 and he was 58. They've been married for 30 years this past February.
Ya being obviously rejected by his parents several weeks before had no effect on his decision to commit suicide.
It was all Ravis fault -almost everyone commits suicide when an a-hole room mate embarrasses them.
This sentence was a terrible injustice. My prayers are with this family. My sister came out and I would hope that no one would treat her this way but I am sure she has endured things she does not tell us about. We love her and I would hope that most families would try to be more understanding and accept their children for who they are.
That's bull, it's not society's fault the kid killed himself. He killed himself because he didn't have the backbone to own his behavior.
Also, I refuse to normalize abnormal behavior just because the perpetrators feel self-conscious about it. That they feel bad about it should be a sign that maybe, just maybe, they shouldn't be doing it.
And Mr. Ravi had absolutely NO right to spy on his room-mate like that. There is something called the 4th amendment, and either Friend Dharun Ravi Obeys our Constitution, or he can kindly take himself back to the land of his own citizenry.
Not a big fan of the Gay Lifestlye, but they do have rights, and so should everyone else, to privacy and freedom of expression.
What abnormal behavior are you talking about?
I agree, what Ravi did was bad, but you can't depend on children to make rational decisions all the time. Had it been me in Ravi's shoes, I'd have probably done the same thing if the technology had been available then - I mean, come on, that's just too good to pass up!
Still, it's no one's fault but the gay's that he's dead. He should have manned up or at least cried for a fortnight then pulled it together.
@pmdww2:
Homosexuality is an abnormal behavior. Children are not made that way, society (sane society, anyway) takes a a dim view of it, the list goes on and on and on... and my will to type ends here.
The "abnormal behavior" he mentions, is the homosexual lifestyle. It is people like him that make folks like poor Tyler fell so helpless and alone in the world. I hope that your god shows you humility in your lifetime, Oogity Boogity.
EDIT: Yea, homosexuality is chosen. Because those who are gay and choose to cover it up, CHOOSE to be gay and cover it up anyway? People like you make no sense. The humility thing I mentioned, clearly not gonna happen for you. Good luck in your biggoted life, sir.
oogity_boogity_music - Homosexuality is considered a normal part of human sexuality by the following professional mental health associations: The American Psychological Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy, the American Counseling Association, the Canadian Psychological Association, and the National Association of Social Workers.
Not only that, but it is found PLENTY in nature. There are something like 1,500 species that perform some sort of homosexual act (sexual). Here is a link, for those whom will argue this point:
h**p://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals
If common sense makes you a bigot, then I'm the biggest bigot on the planet!
Please explain why so many other mammals (we are ofc, one afterall) exhibit homosexual behavior. Is it their choice as well?
Really? No one is going to mention the fact that oogity-boogity said if the technology existed at the time he was in college, he would have spied on his roommate having gay sex, too, because it's "too good to pass up"? If that kind of thing turns you on, then you, sir, are gay as well!
Dumbass.
Interesting post by Mr. Boogity. Very similar to things said when civil rights for black people in the US were being discussed in the 50's and 60's. I suppose we should be glad they don't have a Klan for homophobes, unless you count the churches who bash gays.
@Prince, he likes to edit his posts. I didn't see him say that thing about "can't pass that up" or I would have said something about it. That guy is the typical "if they aren't like me they are wrong" of this generation. But, good news. A study was released a few weeks ago that stated, for the first time, the MAJORITY of Americans believe in Gay marriage. Meaning, people like Oogity will suffer the same fate of those whom tried to discriminate against African Americans unfailry in the 60's: LOSE. Quickly, remorselessly and with the passion of a nation.
There is sound gentic reasoning behind homosexual behavior in the animal kindom. There are some very good recent studies that help to explain it. However, the one that made an impact on me is that several bird species "go gay" when during years of poor resources and help their parents raise their younger siblings by helping to find food for them. These "gay" birds mate with their own sex so no offspring are produced to further stress the low resources. And the abilities of the adult "gay" birds are applied to finding food for their younger siblings.
There was another study with mice where researchers induced stress in pregnant females by adding a mild electric shock to the floors of their cages. The incidence of "homosexual behavior" in these stressed females went up signifantly.
Consider this. In a tribal, agrarian culture, as that from which all human cultures have developed and in which some still remain, when resources are scarce, then having adult members who will not be creating more infant mouths to feed but who may apply their considerable adult skills to bringing in more food for everyone else is a natural mechanism for survival of the tribe. Whether you want to acknowlege it or not, homosexuality is a gift from nature to the tribe such that in harsh times, homosexuals are the vanguards of the tribe who sacrafice their own reproduction in order to support and nourish the tribe.
You may thing homosexuality is unnatural. But without it, it is very possible some tribes on this planet would not have survived. I suggest everyone who has made comments here regarding "sin" and "unnatural" take some time to actually study nature and let go of the old Biblical idea of sin.
I mean it's pretty stupid when you look at it. In the Bible, in the same place where proponents say it calls homosexuality an "abomination," it also damns eating shellfish, working on the sabbath, wearing clothing made from two types of cloth, adultery, and several other commonly accepted practices in our modern era. I suggest the real problem is this: straight men get all squeemish when they think of something going the wrong way up their bum. But, kids, if you are not gay (and you don't end up in max security prison) then it is very unlikely this will happen to you outside of a prostate exam at your doctor's office. If it's not you, then don't do it. And get your morals out of other people's lives and bedrooms.
Here's one other example of a Biblical double standard. There are passages that indicate that for a man to ejaculate in such a way that it is not meant to produce a child (such as when masturbating) is a moral abomination. How many men on this blog who purport to be "Christian" actually masturbate and toss the ejaculate in the trash or down the toilet? If you have done this, then you are as much a moral sinner as any man who has taken it up the roo-roo, dude. Get over your high and mighty self and understand that homosexuality is as normal and natural for humans as it is for all the other species on this planet that practice it. There are very good reasons for it existing.
There are Native American cultures who revered their "bardaches," homosexual men, as high priests and teachers. They considered them touched by both the male and female gods and thus were able to speak with both sides. They believed homosexuals to be able to touch dead people without becoming spiritually "unclean" due to this special connection with both sexes of gods. Thus, they were in charge of preparing the dead for burial.
Just because the people of this age are ignorant of the benefits homosexuals bring to our cultures and to our race of humans doesn't mean it's always been this way or that it will always be this way. Once our race matures and everyone understands the beauty of diversity and the good offered by homosexuality, then the ones born that way will be cherished and appreciated for the things they bring to the world and not shunned and persecuted by the ignorant. It's starting to change already. People who hate and disparage gays are starting to be labeled ignorant haters and they, themselves, are starting to see how it feels to be shunned. So much so that many religious leaders are trying to get laws passed saying that they should be allowed to preach against homosexuality without it being labeled hate speech (even though it is) because they are beginning to see how society is changing. Wake up, people and get on the right side of tolerance and acceptance of the humans who are different from you. What a stupid thing to hate someone for anyway. The fact that they love someone differently than you. Love. What a good reason to hate someone. Pfft!
I totally concur!
@Jojo, Thanks for that post. It shows the inconsistencies in the religious mindset. It is ok to "wear whatever clothes I want, eat whatever I want, work whenever I want, but it IS NOT OK for somoene I do not know to engage is homosexuality." I wish I could just follow the laws I felt like following, and abandon the ones I don't.
Well, guys...you are right in a sense. We can't just pick and choose. But my understanding of biblical teaching is something that you all have never heard or just have not comprehended: the laws that you mention we given as pure laws and that is: God --for whatever reason we may or may not comprehend in our current world--said to His people "Don't do this! or this!" "This is wrong!" etc. Many were for cleanliness and health, many were symbolic and instructive. They would have understood the nuances of meaning, even if some of them espape us. The laws were numerous and burdensome but they were given to prove a point. The point being that God's view of "righteousness" is so high that none of us can attain to it. None. We should follow them all, but we can't. That's why the numerous burdensome atonements, which were only temporary. That's why, according to biblical teaching, a Savior was sent who was the perfect atonement.
What I'm saying is, just because people can't or don't live up to them, does not mean the laws are without moral value. It just means we can't or don't live up to them.
Your examples in defense of homosexuality are unconvincing. In almost every case, your examples of homosexual behavior happened as a result of abnormal, unnatural situations: lack of food, stress, threatened survival. Frankly, people do all sorts of things under those circumstances, and not all of them could be considered good or normal.
I presume you follow Deuteronomy 21:18-21 and kill your children when they're disobedient? If not, why not?
And why should the rest of us follow the bizarre sharia laws of your bronze-age cult? Your imaginary friend in the sky is your psychological problem, not mine.
skrekk
Well put!
if it were my kid, this ravi guy would be taking a lesson in free fall from the very same bridge. i understand it wouldnt bring him back, but i wouldnt have to live with the fact that this pos is sharing air with me....
I hope you would jump off the bridge afterwards, because it's obvious the families rejection of their gay son was as much if not more of a factor then Ravi's stupid webcam stunt.
The parents' rejection probably had more to do with it, but that doesn't excuse Ravi's deplorable behavior.
@rufe,
rufe must stand for "are u frickin' educated"? No, he does not deserve a life sentence, and you are an idiot! He is not dead as a direct result....there were other issues, and he did kill HIMSELF! Folks, gay went from being illegal, immoral, made fun of on t.v., movies, etc. VERY recently, to now being the greatest thing since sliced bread. It is impossible for folks minds/hearts to turn on a dime, and DO NOT compare it to civil rights, slavery, etc. This is strictly a behaviour issue that until recently was taught to everyone as being bad....period. Stuff changes, but not overnight! If rufe thinks this guy should have been put away for life, then THERE is your sign.....rufe is the total nut!
Gay rights are civil rights.
If it's now the greatest thing since sliced bread then why are we still discriminated against? Why is there such a high suicide rate with gay teens due to bullying?
Skipper = Ignorant troll of the week. You don't have a clue what you are saying. BTW it's false.
"Gay rights are civil rights. "
That depends on what you define as gay rights.
@thepunisher: "Every right afforded to straights under whatever Consititution of whatever country they are in" is the definition of gay rights, in other words "Equal protection under law."
One of those rights would be the right to legally marry one consenting adult of his/her choice, for example.
so NO, it doesn't depend on what you define, it depends on what the Constitution defines. How YOU define gay rights will be the difference of whether you are a bigot or not a bigot (personally) but the Constitution is very clear about all men being created equally for the purpose of state guaranteed protections, rights, responsibilities, etcetera.
If one group is being opressed, then all groups are being opressed and all should stand against that opression if they are patriots and value their society's basic mores. If we're only out for ourselves, then God help our United States of America.
What is wrong with those of you who think that Tyler wasn't affected by his conniving, sniveling, disgusting roommate who's idea of a great night was to spy, belittle and "share" what was nobody else's business. I have had students who killed themselves over much less than this and, unless you have walked in their mocassins, you cannot possibly pass judgment. Who died and made you lord of individual mindsets? I have seen kids driven to do something very harmful to themselves by bullies (and you think he is NOT a bully??) and too many of you unsympathic trolls don't think it's appropriate to hold the voyeuristic hater responsible to a degree. Very sad... I hate to see what kind of unloving, unaccepting, misunderstanding and hateful society we are creating. Beyond sad...
While I think that it was Tyler's _total— mindset at the time, comprised of all his stressors, I feel that this callous, mean-spirited violation of his privacy that was the proximate impetus. And the fact that the roommate not only got his private 'kicks' out of viewing it, but felt the need to broadcast it for 'amusement' is revolting.
If he had the support of his family, would he have killed himself? He was clearly upset at their reaction. The biggest factor in his actions was likely the bigotry he experienced from his family. They are the ones that rejected him, and should bear at least some responsibility.
I'm sure they feel the responsibility every day. I got that from the article and how she admitted to taking the news hard. It's enough that her opinion is now changed.
If we would all mind our own business..........and by that I mean keep out of things that do not directly impact us personally, such as who someone else happens to fall in love with!
Minding our own business is not big business, or else reality tv wouldn't be so big.
This truly is a sad story and one that did not need to be told. This event should never have occured in the first place. The individual who took it upon himself to do spread this information to and fro is, in my opinion, a truly a sick person. I would assume that he really doesn't care what he did and he can on with his life as if nothing ever happened. Having said that, I would caution those who think they are his friends to be very, very careful as it could well be you as his target the next time. As I said, in my opinion, he is mean and he is sick and things probably will never change. I would categorize a person as this as someone who can not be trusted.
What infuriates me is that contrary to the sentencing agreement Ravi was NOT deported after 'finishing' his jail sentence.
I guess Obama will give his happy Indian a&^ a work permit too.
Just the kind of immigrant we need ... NOT!
Take the sin out of homosexuality???? Sin is defined from the Bible....Homosexuality is clearly a sin according to the Bible...so how do you take sin out of homosexuality?
Where does the Bible say homosexuality is a sin?
Genesis, Leviticus....ect.....clearly you have never read the Bible which is fine. I am not on here to judge anyone as that is not mine nor any human beings right to judge someone. Im just making the point that the word sin originated from the Bible and the Bible says gayness is a sin. I don't have a problem with homosaexuality, again its not my right to judge...I just have a problem with someone taking something out of the Bible and twisting it to fit their beliefs and not what is was intended for.
You realize Leviticus also says eating shellfish is a sin, yes?
No I am not aware of that. What is your point anyway?
Mhop...yes...you ARE on here to judge others because you think your phony religion gives you a license to come on here and pawn it off as being the utopia and final rule of all things social. Your bible and your god has no place in my life, my house, or my government.
You feel better now Oilman......oh by the way YOUR government was founded on the principles of the Bible...fact
MHop-6257408 - You say that Genesis condemns homosexuality, presumably because of Sodom and Gomorrah. The sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was rape and inhospitality, not homosexuality. Genesis 19:4-5 says that ALL of the townsmen came to rape the angels. There is no way that every man in Sodom and Gomorrah was a homosexual. In addition, Genesis 19:8 states that Lot offered the men his daughters in place of the angels. Why would Lot offer his daughters to a group of homosexual men? This passage is about rape and inhospitality, not homosexuality.
Also, Ezekiel 16:49 (NIV) states, "Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy."
Corinthins 6:9-10..... Lets see what you have to say about this
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
New International Version (NIV)
9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Footnotes:
MHop-6257408 - You say Leviticus condemns homosexuality. The Scripture says, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind; it is an abomination." As a gay man, I do not have s e x with women, I have s e x with men. Thus, I do not lie with mankind as with womankind. This Scripture was not intended to condemn homosexuality.
By the way, Leviticus also forbids wearing clothes made of two fabrics and says we should stone children who disrespect their parents. You had better check your closet and supply of stones.
MHop-6257408 - You say that 1 Corinthians 6:9 condemns homosexuality. The Scripture says, (King James Version) "9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
This does not refer to homosexuality. It may condemn effeminate men, but there are effeminate straight and gay men just as there are masculine straight and gay men.
Mhop - "oh by the way YOUR government was founded on the principles of the Bible...fact."
TOTAL BS!!! That is no more of a fact than I'm wearing a diamond tiara!! Perhaps you were asleep that day in 6th grade history class, but the US is a SECULAR nation founded on the principle of separation of church and state.
Secularism is the principle of separation between government institutions and the persons mandated to represent the State from religious institutions and religious dignitaries. In one sense, secularism may assert the right to be free from religious rule and teachings, and the right to freedom from governmental imposition of religion upon the people within a state that is neutral on matters of belief.
Secularism for Dummies: Keep your f*cking bible in your church and out of my face, out of my life, out of my house and out of my government.
Ah, but Jesus never said a word about homosexuality. Perhaps because he recruited 12 men to walk around with, asking two of them to become a "fisher" of men?
Sorry, but to those who believe the definition of sin is in the bible...
The bible was written by men, for men. The holy book did not suddenly fall from the sky, spilling scripture of the gods. It may be true, it may not be. My point is that its hardly accurate. The bible was written by men, who had points of view and biases just like the commenters on the website. The bible has been reprinted, and undergone changes throughout the years. Do not take the bible to be the undeniable truth. The bible was written by mankind, and mindkind is flawed....
Homosexuality is an abomination a sin and u will go 2 hell and for all of u who r downing God and the Bible u will b n hell 2 so u may want 2 read ur Bible and as 4 the 1 that made the comment about the roommate saying it was 2 good 2 pass up spying...ur exactly right he must b gay 2
The bible, really? I'm sick of bible thumping christians.
Queen....and you honestly expect us to take you seriously after writing that vomit-level grammar? Please. Go get your GED and read something other than that book of fairy tales.
You all make me laugh.
You think that by quoting a verse here and there you can argue as if you even know what is in the bilble. I don't have the time or day to explain, it would take too long, but 1. the Bible is written by men inspired by God, don't know what that means? Go do some homework. 2. You can say a verse doesn't mean something simply because the version you are reading is translated with different vernacular, (such as the KJV bible that was written in 1604) and therefore the way they spoke is different to how we speak today. 3. These are all translations of what is originally Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic. You think you see a discrepancy between one translation and another (NIV vs KJV) then go to the original text. 4. You can't read the bible and see it through your 21st century viewpoint. To understand what the writer was trying to convey to his readers, you also have to understand the cultural, historical and philosophical background from when the writer wrote this. The bible, besides being historical, is also a work of literature. Did you ever take literature in school? If you did, then you should remember that in order to understand what an author is trying to voice through his work was going to take an exegesis of his work to get his message behind the story.
I'm a Christian, and fully believe in what the inspired Word of God says, but I also agree, this boy did not deserve to have an invasion of his privacy, and I think regardless of your sexual orientation, most people would feel violated if what happened to him happened to somebody else. Unfortunately, he felt compelled to take his life away, for what reasons exactly? Nobody reallly knows, but considering he commited suicide a day after the webcam episode, that was probably the tipping point. Was Ravi's punishment lenient? Yes. Even for what he was charged the payment should have been more harsh to send out the message that what he did is unacceptable, and the law will not tolerate it. That, and many other reasons I won't go into, is the reason why bullying is so rampant; nobody takes it seriously, and the bully doesn't suffer the consequences for his actions. Should he be charged for contributing Clementi to suicide? No, because, for one, I'm sure he is not the first person who's privacy was invaded in such manner, and I'm sure not all of the people that have gone through such humiliation commit suicide. Only Clementi knows the full extent of his emotions that caused Clementi to commit suicide.
Hopefully, his death won't be in vain, and his parents will use this foundation to help young people who need guidance in the right direction in a biblical and loving manner-which is really redundant to say because anybody that really knows the Word of God knows His Word is a message about redemption, and love, I just state it for those of you who DO NOT know His Word is about redemption and love.
Yeah it means THEY MADE IT UP!
Note to all those who claim your bible says this or that about anything:
No one but you and your fellow cultists give a flying fu*k what your bible says.
So you may as well save your breath with the bible verses.
Tina-293371 I have to ask you this question, Can a woman make a baby without a man?
The sentence is just.
The greater blame lies with the parents. Their judgmental attitudes that they inculcated into him as a child, the fact that when he came out to his parents, the most important people in his life, they reacted in a way that made him feel rejected -- that was far more wounding than what his roommate did.
Let thiis be a lesson. If your children fear your condemnation, they will hide this secret, and by the time you learn about it, you may have already nearly destroyed your child. And, if you don't adapt fast, there is a good chance that you could finish him off when he finally does find the nerve to come out.
If you want it in Christian terms, judge not lest ye be judged.
Parents -- LOVE your children!!!!
Please, don't quote what is convenient to you without understanding the context of what you are quoting.
Sounds like TES2 is another "Christian" who is annoyed by your simple message of love.
Yes---and no. Loving your children doesn't mean rejecting them. But neither does it mean that you have to approve or pretend to approve everything they are doing. If I don't approve of something my child does, it is my responsibility to say so. My job. Once they are grown, I must back off. But even--after he is grown- if I say nothing, chances are if my son does something he knows I won't approve of, he will feel guilt or rebellious feelings because he is crossing a line I have taught him not to cross. Does that make me judgmental? I think not.
Lisa, are you saying that you would not accept your child's sexual orientation, because that sounds like what you are saying. If so, I think you have made a very cruel statement.
It sure as hell does, if you can't accept your gay kid for who he is and instead you vomit your bible-babble on him.
Keep your bigoted and hate-filled cult to yourself, Lisa, otherwise you might wake up one day to find that you're the proud parent of a dead kid.
Well said!
ugh
can you give me the reference in Bible of youe contention and where does it says it is a greater sin then adultry that most American commit?
No one said it is a greater sin....you obviously missed my entire point. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 talks about homosexuality and adultry.
Who cares what that usurper Paul says anyway? He wasn't even a real disciple and was never in the presence of Jesus.
He was a pharisee (like so many "pharisees" on here) and it shows in all his words.
Wooddragon-3782447
Your ignorance about the Word shines through.
TES: is Wooddragon wrong? Paul himself acknowledges he never met Jesus during his life. Those (like Peter and James and John) who had known Jesus disliked Paul intensely and argued quite viciously with him as they saw him as preaching his own beliefs, not the message they'd heard Jesus preach with their own ears.
Just to save you/us time when you say my ignorance of the word shines through, I have a PhD and taught New Testament and early Christianity to college students for 29 years before my retirement in 2010.
Why anyone needs to reference a book written by some men hundreds of years ago to determine what is right or wrong is completely bizarre.
it's too bad you retired. I would love to take a class such as that. I feel that I really need to know what Jesus said. Not Paul.
Anne: My retirement was quite welcome, but thanks for the sentiment. I can recommend the book James the Brother of Jesus by Robert Eisenman to you (don't be deterred by its length and footnotes as it is very reader-friendly). I do not agree with many of Eisenman's conclusions, but he does try hard (and mostly succeed) to describe the non-Pauline "Jewish Christianity" that prevailed in Jerusalem from the time of Jesus' death until the destruction of the Temple and the Jewish diaspora forty years later. Friend request sent.
..
If any one is to blame for this death is Catholic church and evangelist that created hate our of message of unconditional love of Jesus. When Pope says condemning gays publicly and castigating is more important then helping poor, old, sick and troubled, it is clear where blame lies.
The victims mother makes so much clear that his coming our was a problem for her.
If anyone is not sure about where this blog is headed, let me clue you in: Bible thumpers and homophobes will descend on this like with their hatemonger crap like an addict to crystal meth. It's as if they can't help themselves.
Sorry, I have a predilection towards rebuffing stupidity - both you and homosicksuality fall into that category.
I think you meant to say "I have a predilection towards being just plain blissfully STUPID". And thanks for proving my point. Any other dumbass comments you would like to embarrass yourself with?
Read my post #5.5. It applies to you too.
There is no justification for spreading hatred.
There were gays in the past, there are gays now, there will be gays in the future, that is absolute fact. Now, how society reacts to gays, hopefully will change. There is no changing of epigenetics, once a person is born. Da Vinci, Michelangelo, Newton, Tchaikovsky, were gay -- gay males have a higher IQ -- this sin crap is institutionalized bigotry period. The youth of the country will have to accept the science and abandon antiquated notions.
oogity. . . you have a problem.
Jensen - 576947 - And there have always been murderers, too, but that doesn't make it right does it? And I choose that example because it will get my point across, not because I mean to link A and B together.
I agree, there is no need to spread hate, and I say that to those that are not believers and claim to be believers, but by their hate speech they sell themselves out.
So what exactly was your point?
Sounds like you were denigrating gays by equating them to murderers, and then trying to avoid responsibility for saying something so profoundly stupid.
In this story it appears the parents have "Changed their views on homosexuality" since their son's death.
I hope this helps another person, it is too late for their son.
Stories like this are horrible, but you really don't know what happened and never will.
But why arent people blaming the parents for the suicide?
You dont think that their views and responses effected the kid more than his room mate being an a-- did?
Hank M
I agree. I didn't realize how the parents felt about their child. Who is holding them accountable? Maybe some communty time for a charge of some sort of hate crime against them.
I am so sorry for the parents' loss. But if the mother had truly accepted him, Tyler would have never "misread" her reaction. If she had just wrapped her arms around him and said "I Love You", he would have never felt rejected by her. We as a society, have a long long way to go... but it should feel safe and secure at home.
Wow, guys! Hank! Thought police in action! What are you, Nazis? Stalin or Lenin anyone? We are now considering it appropriate to throw a parent in jail because they taught him something that made him feel bad? Or was politically incorrect? You better watch out, because I guarantee you, if you are parents, that you have said or done some things that have damaged your child, whether you meant to or not. If you child kills himself, shall we come after you, too? No!!!!!
tyler and his/her parents got their x-mas gift early-in the form of a scapegoat for what would have happened anyway.