By Jessica Hopper
Rock Center
When Helen and Jay Stassen’s 21-year-old son, Benjamin, committed suicide 19 months ago, he did not leave a note.
If it had been 20 years ago, the Stassens might have looked through diaries, letters or other personal items in an attempt to find clues as to why he decided to end his life. These days, however, young people tend not to keep things on paper; instead, their most intimate thoughts are likely to be online – in emails, social media posts and personal blogs.
So that’s where the Stassens went searching. They found themselves engaged in a conflict with Facebook and Google as they hunted for answers about their son’s death and the companies sought to honor their contracts with their users.
“We are reeling with the reality of being parents who not only have our son who has died, but a very difficult death on top of it which is not anything we ever saw coming, which has added to our desire to really want to know why,” said Helen Stassen from her home in Prescott, Wis.
The Stassens say that Benjamin, a college student, had hoped to be an entrepreneur one day and was a health food enthusiast who loved to play the drums and practice yoga. To keep his memory alive, they built a free library at a park near their home and their extended family helped get a bench named for him near the Mississippi River.
“Those have been experiences that have helped and have healed in tiny ways that are a contrast to the fight that we’ve been in,” Helen Stassen said.
Courtesy of the Stassen Family
The Stassen family is one of a growing number of families battling online companies to gain access to a deceased loved one’s digital assets.
Digital assets include email, social media accounts, digital photos and online banking accounts and records. The Stassens think Benjamin’s online life might provide a clue into their son’s last days and as the heirs of his estate, they feel they have a right to get access to his accounts.
“Social media is a major way 21-year-olds interact these days,” Jay Stassen said. “We thought maybe this could bring us some understanding, maybe some peace. We didn’t know, but we felt it was important to try to understand.”
A local judge recently granted the family a court order directing Facebook to give the Stassen family access to their son’s account. The court order says that the Stassens are the heirs to their son’s estate and are entitled to any of his assets, possessions or records, including the contents of his Facebook account.
Emails provided by the family show that Facebook has received the court order and it’s currently in their legal department. Legally, Facebook can appeal the court order or comply with it. When asked about the Stassen family’s court order, a Facebook spokesperson said that the company does not comment on specific cases.
Legal experts said that court orders can trump user agreements. Online companies’ user agreements are contracts with the user that usually guarantee privacy and prohibit or limit account access to others beside the user.
“If Facebook is doing business in a jurisdiction and the court orders them to do something, they pretty much have to do it or face the penalty. If they don’t follow a court order, they can be held in contempt of court,” said Peter Swire, a law professor at Ohio State University.
Swire, who served as Chief Counselor for Privacy in President Bill Clinton’s administration and as an adviser to President Barack Obama on privacy issues, said that online companies face a “patchwork of state laws” and are usually cautious when it comes to granting access to a deceased user’s account.
What happens to your Facebook account when you die?
“What happens if a 21-year-old had a safe deposit box at the bank, the answer is the safe deposit box belongs to his estate and whoever controls the estate gets to open the box,” Swire said. “In the physical world, it’s easy to tell if it’s someone’s parents or child who has the safe deposit key, it’s trickier for Facebook and Google. Some evil prankster might pretend that a person is dead and try to take control of the account, so the online companies are understandably careful before they turn over the account to someone who says they run the estate.”
Online companies such as Facebook say they are concerned with honoring their contracts with users which require them to protect their users’ privacy. It is possible that a deceased user may not have intended for his online accounts to be accessed by his loved ones after he died.
“I think it’s a good idea for sites not to have a blanket policy to hand this stuff over to survivors. This information is private and you assume that it’s private, you assume that your Facebook account is private, you assume that your email account is private,” said Rebecca Jeschke of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a digital civil liberties group.
Jeschke said that the problem is that people often don’t know what their deceased loved one’s wanted to happen to their online accounts.
“What's really important is that your survivors know what it is that you want, to say to your spouse and parents, ‘No, you can't read my email after I die or yes, I want you to.’ I don't think I'm the only person that would be uncomfortable with the idea of someone reading my email after I pass,” Jeschke said.
Naomi Cahn,a law professor at George Washington University, said that there is “almost no binding legal precedent out there” when it comes to digital assets.
“It’s a concern of internet service providers being caught between privacy and the meaning of their contracts and being faced with a court order to which there could be quite severe penalties if they don’t comply with it. It’s something that lawyers, state legislatures, hopefully the federal government, hopefully the internet service providers are all starting to think more about as these issues become common,” Cahn said.
Are digital assets part of your estate?
Cahn said that current laws have yet to catch up with the digital age, leaving families like the Stassens in a frustrating limbo.
“When somebody dies, the person who is responsible for taking care of the individual’s asset is supposed to be complying with what the individual wanted and protecting the individual,” Cahn said. “Because so many people have not thought about this, we don’t know what the person actually wanted...we can all imagine what’s in internet accounts. There may certainly be cases where the person who died would not have wanted anyone to get anywhere near the person’s account.”
Only five states currently have estate laws that include digital assets -- Connecticut, Rhode Island, Oklahoma, Indiana and Idaho – and the laws vary among them. Some states’ statutes, for instance, just relate to email, with only Oklahoma and Idaho clearly including social networking and blogging as part of an estate.
“Legally it is unclear exactly what you can do in the 45 states -- and Washington, D.C. -- that do not have these laws that address this situation,” Cahn said. “Even in those states where there are laws, we’re still in the process of testing how those laws operate. They don’t cover all Internet accounts and the laws are new enough that they’re just in the process of being worked out.”
Cahn said that most people don’t think about what will happen to their online accounts when they die, but if they did, they would likely feel differently about different sorts of online accounts.
“Some of the ones that we expect to be passed on, like getting access to online bank account statements, doing online bill paying, those probably we would expect others to be able to take control over. Many of us probably think that once we die, our Facebook accounts should either be memorialized [left up for only friends to see] or deleted entirely,” Cahn said.
Internet companies such as Google, Yahoo and Facebook have taken the position that the user probably intended for the contents of his or her account to remain private and crafted user agreements to reflect this, Cahn said.
“They do assume that the user wants privacy, there’s all kinds of advice on passwords and password strength to make sure that there’ s no unauthorized use,” Cahn said. “One of the reasons we have passwords on our accounts, one of the reasons we get so outraged when there’s a hacking is we have certain expectations of privacy when we open accounts.”
There also are liability issues. Some states prohibit internet companies from disclosing information without the permission of the customer. With no clear definition of digital assets in most states, the companies then look to their user agreements and the laws of individual states when a user dies.
“Right now it’s kind of the Wild West in most states. The statutes don’t refer to any kind of digital asset or account,” said attorney Suzanne Walsh, who specializes in wills and estates.
Walsh is a commissioner to the Uniform Law Commission and chairs a committee that’s been formed to consider drafting a uniform law on digital assets that states could adopt.
Gene Hennig, one of Minnesota’s commissioners to the Uniform Law Commission, said that a court order is one of the few options families have in obtaining access to a loved one’s online account.
“You’ve got to hire lawyers. It’s time-consuming. Some people may go to all that trouble and it took forever to get the order and by the time they got it, the stuff had been destroyed. It’s just an unworkable and very inefficient way of doing things,” Hennig said.
Family fighting Facebook: ‘We’ll be patient, but persistent’
The Stassens, an attorney and librarian, are fortunate in that their professional skills are there to help them navigate the terrain of digital assets. In addition, they’ve connected with other families engaged in similar battles and lobbied their congressman for help. In the process, they’ve also obtained two court orders: one directed at Google and another at Facebook.
“Many people don’t have that knowledge, don’t have that experience and unless they have the financial means to hire an attorney to do this for them, they are very likely to feel stuck and not know what to do,” Jay Stassen said.
After submitting a court order to Google in September of last year, they received the contents of Benjamin’s Gmail account, but they are still working to recover access to Benjamin’s Facebook account. In April, they obtained a court order directing Facebook to give them access to Benjamin’s account.
“We’ll be patient, but persistent,” Helen Stassen said.
The Stassen family said that they plan to keep private any information they find from their son’s online accounts.
A spokesperson for Facebook said that their policies do not allow access to a dead user’s account.
“For privacy reasons, we do not allow others to access a deceased user’s account,” a Facebook spokesperson told NBC News. In addition, the spokesperson said, the company's policy prohibits them from commenting on the Stassen family's case or any other specific cases.
Facebook has two options for a dead user’s account, the spokesperson said. The first allows an account to be memorialized, which leaves the profile up so that friends and family can leave posts in remembrance, but restricts the profile and associated content to the Facebook "friends" that the deceased had while alive, the spokesperson said. A proof of death must be provided for an account to be memorialized. In some instances, Facebook allows family members to have an account deactivated.
Other companies have different policies regarding a deceased person’s online account. According to Google’s web site, in rare cases, they may provide the content of a deceased person’s account to an authorized representative of the person. Meanwhile, Yahoo says on its site that all accounts are non-transferable and it will delete an account when they receive a death certificate.
Courtesy of Peter Stassen
The Stassen family, though, say they don't want to memorialize or deactivate their son’s Facebook account until they have seen the full contents. The only way they’ve been able to see the public part of their son’s page is because he and his brother, Peter, were friends on Facebook.
Benjamin’s Facebook profile shows a smiling young man with photos showing him skiing with his family and enjoying a beer with his brother, Peter.
Peter Stassen said that it’s been a struggle to watch his parents try to obtain access to Benjamin’s account.
“It’s hard to fully reconcile how I feel about Facebook now,” said Peter Stassen, Benjamin’s brother. “None of the people on the Facebook side seem to have any realization that my parents are people, that they’re dealing with emotions and that they’re not just an account.”
Facebook’s policy prohibits them from commenting on the Stassen family’s case or any other specific cases, the spokesperson said.
“I think Facebook has to understand that when they push sharing of data, open sharing of data, they also have an obligation not only to be fair with the account owner during their lifetime, they have an obligation to be fair with the account owner after they’ve died,” Jay Stassen said.
How you can protect your digital assets
The growing murkiness over digital assets recently prompted the federal government to post a blog encouraging people to create social media wills.
And Professor Cahn said that people should discuss their online accounts with their loved ones and have a frank conversation about what they want to remain online, what they want to be deleted and what they want their loved ones to have access to.
“We’re in an era of uncertainty,” Cahn said. “You can certainly tell your loved ones what you want to have happen. What you have online that’s not private, you can set up a joint account.”
Cahn said couples should consider joint online bank accounts, for example. In addition, she said, people can include digital assets in their wills, but warns that wills eventually become public documents and that if you list passwords on the will, those will become accessible to the public.
A series of companies have also sprouted up, such as Entrustet and Legacy Locker, that allow you to come up with a plan for the life of your online accounts after you’re gone, Cahn said.
“As a society, we value the privacy of our online account and we want internet service providers to protect our privacy and that means not giving others access. If we thought about it, we might think differently after we die,” Cahn said.
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If you want everything private don't make it public words of wisdom......
Facebook may very well have reached its Zenith and could begin a slow descent and will be relegated to irrelevance when the next big social networking thing comes along.
Zuckerberg was wise to have cashed in when he did.
Facebook lacks privacy yet refuses to give grieving parents their son's password----kind of contradictory in practice don't you think.
This company caled Facebook is similar to a sham---we give but we also take much more!
Keep in mind that this whole concept of Facebook was developed so college boys could spy on and talk about girls.
haha sillyshrinks as if girls don't' spy on guys too!
I have a lot of messages that, if I died, the person on the other end wouldn't want my parents or the rest of the world to see! I say keep it private. If a user wants people to have access after they die, it's pretty simple to make those arrangements.
funny how fb worries about the privacy of a dead users info to his family but will whore out everyones info to the highest paying companies,man fb is one bad pimp....................................
it seems like Facebook could make it very easy going forward:
put in a function that allows the user of a facebook page to predetermine what is allowed to happen with their account after their death.
A) eliminate it, do not share any content with anyone
B) memoralize it, do not share any content with anyone
C) share content with family, give them the ability to determine to eliminate or memorialze
D) share content with family, but then eliminate it
E) share content with family, but also memorialize it
I think that pretty much covers it. and as a user you should always be able to change that setting if you wish. if someone selected that they did not want it memorialized and did not want anyone to have access to it, then the family members can rightfully point their anger towards their deceased relative...not a social networking site.
frankly, this family should take a lack of suicide note as their first clue.
their kid didnt care enough about them to even tell them WHY he made this choice. speaks volumes really, but in their pain they have their fingers plugged firmly in their ears.
Yeah, can't give out the information to survivors, just businesses that want to try and sell you Viagra or the government if the government feels a certain whim of fancy to know every detail about your life.
What a crock.
This is another example how the digital world likes to separate itself from reality. I can access everything if I am the heir of the estate including, like the article stated, their safe deposit box.
I will have access to every physical item the person owns including the shoebox under their bed, file cabinets and the mail that is still being delivered. There is an expectation of privacy in all of this. There are laws that tell me I am not allowed to open my neighbors mail yet when you are dead who is there to stop it from happening?
If you don't want your emails or Facebook read when you are dead, DELETE IT WHILE YOU ARE STILL ALIVE. If it is so bad for someone else to look at it WHY ARE YOU SAVING IT????? Has common sense died completely in this world?
Lawmakers or someone in this world need to realize that parallels can be drawn in everything digital to the physical and attach our current laws to it. Look at it like this, if Facebook doesn't need absolute proof that you are old enough to use their service then all the other BS in their policies has holes shot through it as well. Another example, the only difference between snail mail and email is the speed at which it is delivered and the mailbox location.
Why are digital companies aloud to have their own set of rules? Why do manufacturing companies have to go through hell to get a business started but a digital company just needs to create a website without following any federal or state regulations every other business has to follow? They use the guise of Freedom of Speech which is just abusing the right. "You can't take my site down, I have Freedom of Speech". There is nothing in the Constitution that gives you the freedom to be an idiot yet in the digital world we have many. A growing population that is getting out of control.
I can go on forever ranting and raving about this subject but let's look at it in the context of the article. The author mentioned that Facebook and Google have to protect themselves from scammers that could be claiming someone is dead. Yet we have technology like teleconferencing where Facebooks lawyers and the parents lawyers can have a VIRTUAL face to face conversation alleviating all fears that this is a scam. Not to mention that a judge already made that perfectly clear. Again, the rules are only their when they suit Facebook and Google.
If Facebook is standing their ground on this, for now, what do they say to the person who's account is hacked? They didn't do a very good job of protecting their information but suddenly, no matter the circumstance, that will be the users fault, not Facebooks.
In the mean time Facebook is still making money selling this kids information to anyone that pays the right price.
Can't see his page unless your on his friends list..sorry parents.
Only privacy children got is FB.
FB sucks!!!!
The account info should not be released to the parents, perhaps to the police if they investigated the death, maybe they could provide the parents with some answers tactfully.
One of my dutiies in the Navy was to oversee the shipment of personal effects to the next of kin when someone on the ship died. We routinely removed and disposed of anything that could have been hurtful to the memory of their loved one. I imagine that someone like this young man who killed himself might have some activity which would do nothing but cause addtional pain for them.
The parents obviously will continue to grieve for some time. Hopefully one day they will cherish the good times and things will get a little easier.
@ marbles, thats kind of stupid to remove anything that is hurtful?? how stupid is that, if the kid hated the parent the parent would want to know why, if he was gay, the parents would want to know who was the last guy was with him, kind of redundant dont you think to do such a thing to get rid of hurtful memories, i mean come on, the decease dont care only the living cares.
Interesting how a site that looks for any excuse to expose everything we do to the world, now wants to protect this young man's privacy to the extreme of not even letting his family have access.
MArbles..these parents need answers to why their son killed himself. Im sure they realize those answers may be painful. BUt that pain will go away unlike the pain of not knowing..PS if you routinelt tampered with belongings of a dead serviceman you probably should be court martialed. Thats not your call to make.
Marbles - true. While I don't think it would necessarily cause my parent's extra pain and grief, they really don't need to see my porn, drug paraphernalia, or sex toys. I get why loved ones want to know everything about someone who has just died (as parents might want to when their kids are alive) but I don't see why they should. If I keep something private I've intended it to be private. I share enough with my friends and family as it is.
It's understandable that the parents want answers after their son's suicide, but if he didn't leave a note, then they should probably accept the fact that he didn't want his reasoning known to anyone.
What a lot of people don't grasp is that sometimes there are no cut and dry causes for a person killing themselves. Life itself can be too painful in general for some people to bear. Pouring over every aspect of their son's digital life probably won't bring them any comfort.
As hard as it is to comprehend the loss of a loved one from suicide, the most comforting thing these parents can do for themselves is to consider emotional turmoil as a debilitating illness and be thankful for the time they had with their son, as short as that time may have been.
Also, it should be noted that I'm not callous to their situation, my father committed suicide when I was 10 years old. It took time to understand that he was so unhappy with his existence that he'd rather be dead, but I eventually did embrace the knowledge that, if nothing else, he was no longer suffering in this mortal coil.
Rather than fight with facebook - why don't his parents just ask his friends to show them his page? Seems like an easier solution.
What is the big deal? The account holder can just give the password to the beneficiary for access after death. The account can then be accessed by the appropriate person/s.
As always people with nothing to say
cept shaming facebook and thier IPO...
absolutely nothing to say...
Are people not understanding the difference here? Facebook isn't selling your private messages and chats. That's what his parents want. They're not interested in his profile page or the stuff his Facebook friends can see or his demographic information, they want to read all of the private interactions he had with the people he knows on Facebook. Just like they got Google to hand over all of his private emails and chats.
FUN FACT: HES 21!!!
Derp.
I bet your 80 yr old parents would also be interested when you die at 50 eh?
sounds bout right...
n these r the same people complaining about human rights and privacy.
If you're on MySpace, your death eventually gets counted to MyDeathSpace.com, which in a huge way, is kind of creepy!
You know, at least be responsible--leave your online account logins on your a password list, and ensure that at least two people know the password to that file. It's very easy for a surviving family member to write via email/regular mail to the organization and request that your accounts be closed--permanently.
I couldn't imagine leaving an online presence behind when I'm no longer a part of the planet--but hey, that's just me.
Removing potential items from a person's personal effects isn't stupid, it is the right thing to do. What good does it do to let a widow/widower find out that their spouse was unfaithful, for instance? Is there really any need for parents to learn that their 19 year old son was into kinky porn magazines?
@ Marbles,
Who are you to make those types of decisions? Parents have rights when it comes to children and if this child had written in a will that all property be left to his parents, wife, and children or other should be obeyed. It's not for you to decide what information belongs to that person or someone else. Shame on YOU!
Did you notice Marble's post where he said that it was his duty? He certainly didn't originate the concept. I bet that anyone who has had the same duty did exactly the same thing.
I don't get the uproar. The judge just recently sent the order and facebook has yet to respond. I'm sure this isn't the only item in their legal department and if they're like any other business, they're probably backed up with a short staff.
But anyways, a business can't just release stuff just because you say your his mom. Can you imagine all of the crazy ex's that would pull that @!$%# if they thought that they could get access to your stuff.
Removing potential items from a person's personal effects isn't stupid, it's theft.
its very easy to set your accts, and so on up so if you die, the 1 person you want to have privialge to them gets it. very simple system. in your will&testament, include 1 password to the person to have access, or control over your PC laptop,or other PW activated device. then, to include if you have the folder hidden where to find it. in that folder, as some do, they keep passwords as a reminder, and addy's for where specific accounts are needed. some people use 1-5 PW's and have them memorised. otherwise a smart person i guess would know where to look.
there is also acceditied app's, that will allow you to retrieve any PW for any program/app, on your device. easily found online. cain/able was a nice one when i used it yrs ago.
just putting it out there.. computers are the easiest thing to get into as long as you have the little time to plop in a disk or usb.
His surviving family should have access to his files and accounts to see how he lived, as do officials investigating the causes that led to his death. It's the right thing to do.
jmk-426850
Rather than fight with facebook - why don't his parents just ask his friends to show them his page? Seems like an easier solution.
#1.16 - Fri Jun 1, 2012 10:44 AM PDT
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This can be done, on the assumption that you know who his online friends are, or if he had friends of which you have to know their full names, have their contact information and/or where they live.
Some may not want his parents to know who they are, since its on the grapevine they are willing to go to court to find out why he died and who he was talking with that led up to his suicide.
Friends don't let friends commit suicide. What kind of "friends" and online commenters did he have? With those kinds of 'friends,' online or offline ...who needs enemies?
Jessica, that would be a really brilliant idea to provide an option of the user in the event of death.
Jessica...how can you say he didn't care about them or he'd leave a suicide note? Maybe he cared about them too much, and didn't want to hurt them further with a note, not realizing that they wouldn't have closure. But most likely, he wasn't thinking of anyone but himself, because if people knew how badly they hurt their loved ones by taking their lives, no one would do it. People who commit suicide don't really want to die...they want to end the pain they are in. Have you had anyone in your life commit suicide? Did they all leave you detailed notes? I've had several people, and not a one of them left a note. In every case we were all left to piece things together and wonder why. It's a horrible place to be. One of my thoughts, also, is that they might find that there is reason to believe he was murdered and it was made to look like a suicide. I'd sure want to cover all my bases to be sure that didn't happen, as a parent. This guy is, sadly, gone. It won't hurt him to "violate his privacy". Let the parents see the account.
Junecleo is right. You cannot make the assumption that Benjamin didn't care about his family because he did not leave a suicide note. People who are seriously depressed aren't able to reason or to think clearly. They are in the depths of despair and can see no escape but death, and that is why they need outside intervention.
It is cruel to add to the pain and guilt the parents must be feeling to make the judgment that their son didn't care about them.
For those getting on Marbles case, given he does this in the Navy, what if some of the people in question were Navy Seals, and among their effects were photos or a diary containing top secret information which would contain material classified by the military, in interests of national security? They're not going to send that stuff through personal effects, anymore then they would from governnment documents, without them having filed an FOI (freedom of information) request, which was properly processed, and said documents perhaps having some information the government wants to keep secret, redacted...
Would it also be all that helpful for them to know, that while in service to the counrty, they had done things, which might have been in the line of duty, and perhaps might have even been in the eyes of many distasteful, and yet was a part of war.... Or in going after a target they were instructed to, not only a civilian, but someone's 3 year old died along side the insurgents, and they were to learn of this only after the fact, etc...
Truth is, many people be they in college or otherwise, among many younger individuals do NOT want their parents to be a part of every aspect of their life, for much the same reason an 18 year old wouldn't necessarily want to take their mom on a date, and share every last aspect of their life from their infancy or whatever, with every last person they're dating, and perhaps going a bit further with (aka sleeping with). Most everyone isn't quite so extroverted that they want every last aspect of their lives to be an open book. And if the rights of the deceased are to be respected, then this would include, if they didn't want to share every last aspect of themselves.... tbh, if I had reason to assume that everythhing could be passed out, then if I were on my death bed and lieing in a hospital, probably one of the last things I would do would be ask the doctors on the hospital bed for a computer, so I could do account closings/deletions...
If I want to share something, I could do so on my own, without mass disclosers happening without my afore mentioned approval....
maybe for murder cases but not for suicide cases. if suicide victims wanted their parents to snoop around their FB accounts they would have given them the password.
stop being nosy and try focus on being better parents. yes it was their fault.
If I set mine to private, it means just that. Private.
Please people, for those of you judging my and every other compassionate officer's judgment in the same situation:
Do you really think the parents of a 19 year old sailor who just died tragically and who view him as nothing less than a hero really need to see his old Hustler collection with all the pages stuck together?
The media today is merely different. A lot of people here apparently have lived sheltered lives.
I agree that it should be easy for an "in case of Death" tab be added to preferences of any site a person is registered with.......and the company would then be obligated to disclose information according to the deceased persons wishes.
Some posters here (certainly not all) seem to think that a young person whose life has become so unbearable to be committing suicide should have the common decency to make sure his electronic accounts are all properly identified to those whom he is abandoning.
These same posters apparently have all their personal accounts in 100% order for access by a primary (and a backup) person in case they get run over 10 minutes from now. Always ready to meet their Maker with not a single loose end - not a single new electronic account that has not been fully revealed to their loved ones (especially the Newsvine account)
These posters see no reason for the law to take into consideration that the loved ones of unexpectedly deceased persons should have any claim to the electronic effects that the deceased may not have fully assigned before becoming deceased (as these totally rational posters would most assuredly have done).
Ahh, to be so unperturbedly rational.
Facebook and other social media giants have unilaterally stripped parents of minor children of our rights as parents. We cannot access our deceased son's account while he was 15. FB presents the same obstacles to us that the Stasens are facing.
Then exercise your right as a parent and tell your children if they want to have a Facebook page you want the password. If they complain about "Privacy" let them know when they turn 18 and become legal adults they can have all the privacy they want...
Now this tragic story is about someone who already was an adult who decided to take his own life, and it raises all types of questions about the rights of family members after someone is deceased. It's a shame that Facebook wouldn't just do their due diligence and investigate the matter privately (have the parents submit a Death Certificate) and verify that he is deceased. After that they could verify the parents identity and allow access. You would think it would be that simple but of course all of the Lawyers and talking heads get involved and here we are....I've said it once and i'll say it again this is one Fu*ked up world we live in today
Well said. A very sad state of affairs for both that child and the parents, devastating to lose a child in that way especially. FB was something that was originally designed to unite us and now has been the source of so much grief, mostly for our youth lately. I really love your comment "exercise your right as a parent". Boy if we could just get back to that, and soon.
our adult son has passed as well..I think that if we show the death certificate we as parents would be allowed to get there password and do what we want with there FB..
Wayback2012,
I agree with you that parents need to be parents and set rules and hold to them. The Facebook thing is a great example and parents should have the passwords for safety reasons.
I just want parents who read this to understand that nearly 50% of teens with Facebook accounts have a DUMMY ACCOUNT which they show parents and one that they keep secret.
Good luck! Parenting is a Full-Time job, and children need you more than they ever realize when growing up.
.........um.........I think that I may be the strictest Mom on earth. I REQUIRE that if my kids wants to have an e-mail account or facebook account, that I have his password and am able to access their accounts at ANY time. Don't put your head in the sand because you THINK that you are invading someone's privacy. My 5 boys can have all the privacy they want when they turn 18. Quit being their friends and make them and yourself accountable.
unfortunately wayback2012, as was previously mentioned their son was 21 this means, as far as i know, he is a grown adult and so no he does not have to give his parents any passwords he does not want them to have. on the other hand, if FB has such a problem with finding out if people are true estate holders then should they not have in their policy for these loved ones and estate holders to email, fax, or straight mail a copy of a notorized memorandum stating they are legal estate holders of the deceased signed by a court. that i do agree on, and not only with FB but with all major online social media sites as well.
if I die accidentally (since I wont be taking my own life) I absolutely, HANDS DOWN, do not want anyone but my spouse to have access to my facebook account or anything else.
I dont have anything to hide, I just dont think my family needs to snoop through every detail of my life. some things are meant to be private and should remain private.
if your child took their life, it's a shame...but if they wanted you to know why, they would have left you a note. end of story. show your child some respect, and let them rest in peace...
One solution would be to have Facebook insist that you put something in your account, that would not be optional, to authorize or not as to who would have access to the account if you become unable to make decisions concerning the account. You could authorize who would and would not be able to view the account or even authorize Facebook to delete the data. It would solve problems like this.
Deja Vu. I feel as though I've seen wayback2012's face somewhere before.
OMG, wayback2012, you hit it right on the head! So many parents today are more insterested in being "friends" with their children, instead of being a parent.
Selfish, if you ask me. I was raised by old fashioned people. They were strict and didn't put up with disrespect from anybody. When I became an adult, I asked my aunt why she was so hard one me. She said, "You can't be friends with your children while you're trying to raise them." We found out how true those words were while rising our two sons. There were times, I'm sure, they hated our guts, but you know what? They turned out to be fine, honest and hardworking young men, who thank us for sticking to our guns, and teaching them the things they needed to be taught to become successful adults.
That made it all worth it. Kids do not have the ability to see beyond the "right now" -- no ability to see the longterm consequences of their actions. That's why they don't understand why we won't let them do some of the things they want to do. They simply cannot see or understand what's not right in front of their faces. That's where we, as adults, come in. It's not easy, and it will sometimes make you very unpopular. But if you love your children, and want to do what's right for them, you'll do the right thing.
There is one point you folks are missing when it comes to the issue of minors. I don't care how strict you are as a parent or what rules you have in place for your kids. They can set this up at a friends house, on a smartphone and even at your local public library.
Facebook doesn't send something through the US Postal service to verify anything. They don't require a drivers licence or a credit card even for just a one time verification. Your kids can have an account on Facebook and you may never know. This is part of that double standard I ranted about in an earlier comment. Facebooks defense is, it's not our fault that your kid is a liar. There is no verification process. Your kid can just as easily set up a yahoo or gmail account for email with as many email addresses as they are willing to deal with. Again, there is nothing requiring parents permission to do this.
My last understanding of Facebook is that you have to be at least 14 years old to have an account yet a survey stated that 20-30% of the users are under the age of fourteen. Facebooks defense, we have a half billion users, we can't keep track of them all. To me this is like moving to a city and having the police force state the population is to high to police. Okay, bad example. Not enough guards at the prison-----wait, another bad example.
Facebook can make billions but they can't spend the extra money it would take to have actual human beings monitor the system with a verification process in place. Would you go to a bank branch that didn't have a security guard----damn, another horrible example.
All the stories we read about Google, Facebook, hackers.......anything digital always has the same theme of utter confusion. We have old technophobe lawmakers going against young digital brilliance and they are losing, not just losing, they are being shut out. They should take their ball and go home so a younger more digitally knowledgeable group can take their place.
Rant complete.
What could it hurt... the poor kid is dead, ya can't get worse than that. This is NOT a case of parents simply wanting to SNOOP THRU EVERY DETAIL !!!!! Show some respect to the parents need to know why their child is NO LONGER in their lives. The need for someones privacy is only relevant if that person is alive. If I were dead, I doubt I would be affected at all if my private info was disclosed.. I'm in a frickin box 6 feet under FFS !!
FB is real finicky on their privacy guidelines. But one thing that was not mentioned in this article is another factor where FB does not fully check who is notifying them of the death of an owner of an account. My best friend passed away 8 months ago due to a car accident and someone who was not family nor had documentation of his death notified FB. When his mother went to FB 2 weeks after he passed, she was extremely upset that someone had notified them wihtout her knowledge and possibly had already gotten access to his pictures of vacations, family, friends, etc. FB required a certificate of death as proof of the owner was indeed deceased. His FB account was memorialized 3 or 4 days after his passing. It really bothers me that FB has all these privacy policies, but they don't follow them on their side. Especially when someone who was not suppose to have authorized access to my friend's account got it without the necessary documentation required by their company. The whole situation is very distressing.
My dogs have a Facebook account. Anyone can, there is no verification process.
but ebbers, do they have an AmEx card yet?
YOU PARENTS DONT GET IT
you think your dead kids would want you to know what they were doing?
no. there is a reason why they decided to use facebook, and keep it private. this doesnt change when they die. facebook isnt a will letter, if they want it hidden it means they want it hidden.
as a parent, that doesnt justify your means of trying to infiltrate your dead child's information. they want it to be private, and so it shall remain. dying doesnt mean all thier information is a free give away. they have thier rights too, in death. respect them and thier decisions in life.
parents r like big government, some times there ARE things you should keep your hands off....
in this article if they wanted some information, GO TALK TO HIS FRIENDS, his account is still up, and his friends WILL know more then what you read on a screen...
You must not have any children!! The feeling of not knowing why your child died can kill you. These parents deserve closure and deserve the respect from FaceBook to obtain the information they need for that closure. It is you, sockurmouth that doesn't get it! Dear Parents - I pray that you find out why your son took his life, and I pray that you find peace within your hearts to accept the answers you find! Amen
"Call it logic". forgive me but it's parents like you who THINK they know it all about their kids, whose very own kids have that 'dummy' account along with their real account/email.
I hope you're right, but I have a feeling that you're not. You strike me as a very controlling parent, as opposed to a 'knowing' parent. It's always the 'not my child' parents that are in for the rude awakening.
I have a faceboook account(under a fictittious name) only because there was someone who I wanted to commmunicated with that only would commmunicate through faceboook. I never do. It puts to much of my private businesss out for alll to see - something I'm not comfortable with.
But, how would FB know beyond doubt that the papers applied to a particular account? I don't remember putting a street address or SSN into my profile, so what's the definitive matching mechanism? There are too many people with the same name for that to be any good.
I like the suggestion that I saw posted previously where FB should enable account holders to specify whether they want their account available to their heirs or executors after their death. I doubt that any court would override any such decisions.
Well, hypothetically, let's say that this young man put something on Facebook which talked about how he was in danger and someone else was threatening him. It's not that hard to manufacture something that looks like a suicide. There really are cases in which it would be good to look into the young man's interactions--it would help to make sure this really was a suicide.
Or, they might find out who it was that drove the young man to suicide. There is a possible civil case there.
If the young man didn't want anyone seeing his thoughts--he shouldn't have put them in fixed form where they could be retrieved. A diary, theoretically, is private--but after a suicide, if it still exists, anyone who has control of the estate can go through it. Journals and diaries have, in the past, led to court cases because the deceased did leave information which allowed the case to be filed.
It is best to have a document which contains all of one's accounts and passwords and to keep that document sealed somewhere--a safe or a safety deposit box--and to leave the key or combination with an attorney or individual one trusts to take care of the matter after one's death. Still, Facebook does need to have a specific process for dealing with deaths--it's not that hard to have a form which allows the given person to exercise control of the account after his/her death. When presented with the death certificate, FB can just do whatever is indicated. Pretty simple.
But, yes, there is also a chance that this would involve destroying evidence that might be relevant to a criminal or civil case, so FB should be made to cough the information up if they don't have a way of more systematically dealing with the issue.
as a parent it is my obligation as a parent to draw the privacy line. i make sure i know my kids PWs until on their own.
If Facebook has an agreement, that they will NOT share your information with anyone except advertisers, marketers, or the government..... then they should STICK TO IT!
If you want access to a departed family members online account(s) download from majorgeeks.com a freeware tool that will password hack the account so you can gain access. Good luck.
Thank you for this info! Very helpful.
yes, helpful indeed to those who now can access whoever's info they want. Technology is changing so fast, that the legal world is only now beginning to understand what loopholes have been created. I agree with wayback, under 18 parents should have password. O
Is this where you click on a website and get your own computer hacked? haha
and people wonder why thier kids hate them...
there goes the trust
I would totally understand if your kids hate you, sockurmouth!! You sound like a mean, miserable person!
With all due respect, armed with a death certificate and a court order, FB has NO legal standing to deny these parent access; it is an estate issue, and quite frankly, cause of death is irrelevent. For FB to suggest they need to protect a dead user's privacy is laughable. FB cannot even protect current users, why all the hand-wringing over a deceased no-longer a user account?
As others have said, if you don't want your stuff to be seen, then be smart enough to not put it out there on the internet. Doesn't everyone know that by now?
Lastly, dead "users" really don't care who sees their stuff. No one can do anything about it anyway, can they?
How does FB know if the death certificate matches a particular online profile?
you can also include..... a clipping from the paper, as well a funeral paper. not hard for FB to look in that areas local paper for a fresh view of the obits for the same person on the death cert., as well a copy of inheritance. then their should be NO legal issues pending.
i hope they sue facebook and get millions
The whole point of the article is our laws don't yet cover this area. You think they should sue FB for not following a law that doesn't yet exist?
You don't think this could easily go the other way? What about a guy who isn't dead but just vanished for years. That happens to be legal, you know. He'll get to sue FB too if they give his parents his info because the only legally-binding document anywhere in this process is the FB Terms and Conditions which say they won't give out his password no matter what.
Can't you see this isn't FB's fault? They're in a legal limbo where they can ALWAYS get sued either way. So naturally they're being cautious. It isn't their job to make law. If you don't like the situation, call your state government.
Cant respect a dead child's wish in life that, well duh, they use facebook so it remains private.
dying isnt a ticket to everything in thier life.
respect that.
Sueing facebook out of selfrightoueness isnt gonna solve anything, if anything your post was posted with anger
@ Bart, why sue and get millions? Facebook didn't kill this poor kid. I would think that if his brother was his friend, he would be able to see almost everything his brother wrote on facebook. Anything more private than that, should be kept private.
I feel for the parents but I agree with some of the others here that say respect the guys privacy now that he is deceased.
This was my first thought as I read the article. Isn't the brother sharing the information he has with his parents? What else would they expect to find beyond that?
They don't want to see just the public pages; they want access to everything, including his messages.
I hope if they do finally get to see the whole thing they find it filled with nothing but friend requests for Farmville.
Once I'm a stiff, I won't care about a user agreement nor will I care about who reads my e-mails.
I'm taking my email addy with me to hell. After all isn't that what HOTmail would be most aptly named for?
so many mad parents here, doesnt seem like they care about the feeling of thier kids...
maybe store the password or somthing somewhere and tell your parents that they are ALLOW to read thier stuff when they die
this way there is no breach of trust or respect for the dead
better yet, make it a thing on facebook, they can sell certificate signed online or by hand, to parents. sounds like a good idea.
NEVER put anything on FB you don't want the U.S. Government to see. FB is run by the alphabet agencies and they say what goes on with your information. If they can't glean it off FB, they will go to Google and retrieve it from them, your search tasks, phone photo's and conversations (Google runs Android), and if all else fails, they gather all of your twitter posts. Then they lock it up under "National Security". You and your family will play Satan Roullette with them trying to get said info. Don't be fooled by those that say this isn't true, they are here to villify all posts pertaining to the truth.
And where's your evidence?
Wait...Google runs Android?? Does anyone else know about this?!?
Umm, ya. Google bought Android in 2005.
And the little green men abduct our children before they are born and take them to their space ships and perform experiments on them. So don't forget to wear your little aluminum foil hat so they can't steal your thoughts.
Geeeeeez. Conspiracy theory fanatics and their paranoia and/or megalomania. The government doesn't care enough about the little person to want to know your every thought, email, facebook post, tweet, etc etc etc.
You are not the center of the universe, and the government doesn't care.
I dunno, Xela; Blastin might have a point. After all, Mark Z. IS a space alien, and we all know that space aliens have already infiltrated the highest levels of our government....my god, it all makes sense now!
Conservative Conspiracy Theorists.
remember that crap bout the illuminati and they free mason...yeah...now its government agency and the talk about the devil amoungst us. get a grip and find a better hobby
Look, not to be paranoid, but the government does, in fact (and has admitted this) pretty well keep track of everything that they can on the Internet. I don't happen to mind, myself, but I do keep that in my mind when running a search or doing something that might be misinterpreted.
They also listen to your phone conversations--and, yes, they've admitted that, too.
They aren't looking at every single person--there are certain words or statements or actions that trigger their attention. If you were to do a search, for example, for how to build some sort of device which might be used for the purposes of domestic or international terrorism--I'm pretty sure that some sort of little bot would be on you very quickly. Personally, I think that's a good thing--but that's just me.
It is wise to remember that you can be watched on the Internet--if you draw someone's attention, they will watch you. I doubt they are bothering with me--but I know it could be done. This is why I have no Facebook account or MySpace account or LinkedIn account. Anything I type online, I assume can be used against me. It really is best to remember that.
According to the F B Code of Ethics (probably less than $1.00) What do you mean you want us to help you for FREE? Click "like" on any page and receive volumes of Spam on that and related products. Let us collect your personal information and classify into an appropriate sales pack. But, Help a couple grieving parents with a dead (suicidal) son? No way. That opposes our morals (or lack there of).
After the fiasco of an IPO, you think they would want to be seen in a good light, not the greed masters they are.
Oh they will learn the Netflix lesson of pissing off customers, because more users will side with the parents than them.
No, I won't click "Post to Facebook Wall". Social networking is nothing but free marketing research for a group of jerks to resell. All of them! One day people will realize they are corporate tools not "friends".
mark zuckerberg shows up at your house steals all your stuff and sells it on ebay!
Nah-Uh - he sells it on Mark's List, a new and improved Craig's List that everyone will want to join with a membership fee that loses its value after day one.
these people r delusional....
I think it is stupid that they can obtain their sons information. They want insight into why it happened and they cant even have that. All they have to do is give them his user name and password and everything should be fine.
Sometimes the right to privacy interfears with a loved ones rights to move on after a death, any kind of death. Kind of sucks, doesn't it?
The parents are looking for answers, they are in horrific pain. show some compassion.
One of the parents is a lawyer... no compassion allowed without a court order.
Wow, that's a pretty rude and uncalled for comment.
analy - that's unfortunate, but not a good reason to trump the dead kids privacy rights.
Dont you think if he wanted his parents to know why he killed himself, he would have left a note?
and then what happens if they dont "find the answers" on facebook? who do they sue next to assuage their grief?
He killed himself you ignorant person..He has no privacy. They arent suing someone to assuage their grief..They arent asking for money they are asking for access to their sons thoughts so hopefully they can understand what happemed. You CLEARLY have NOT lost a child to suicide or you would even dare have this debate.
It is so sad, I cannot imagine their pain. They should be able to see their son's facebook, maybe they will find something, to give them answers, or give them comfort.
@Jessica:
No. Most people who commit suicide don't leave notes. This isn't TV/Movies where they leave a note. Those who do leave notes have been planning it out for some time.
I've lost a few friends to suicide. None of them left a note; they were fine the day before, and the next day they had a bullet hole in their head.
Jessica's point was that if he had wanted his parents to know what he was thinking, he would have told them or left a note. As far as I'm concerned, my online stuff is mine, living or dead. If I want someone rummaging around, I'll leave my password.
Facebook is the devil!
Nah, Dick Cheney is the Devil. Idiotbook is just evil.
-Mad parents.
You do not have children do you? If not, then keep your opinions to your self. They have no bearing whats so ever on this situation. Also, there are messages inside facebook accounts that the brother in no way can see on his facebook page. This is what they are looking for here. For instance, maybe he was being bullied or terrorized by people and he took his life because of this. This may be within his message area. Parents have every right to find this out. Maybe it will prevent someone else from committing suicide or it will give them the closure they need.
If the person is deceased his family should be entitled to see their child's facebook or anything else that belnged to him. They are his family, and they should be the owners now. I do not see what harm it is. if his parents want to have some kind of closesure why make it so hard. Bad enough they lost their child, why should they also lose his final statements or thoughts, or whatever else there maybe. When are compnies going to start think like people then robots. Wonder what the would say if it were they children or family members, what woul they do then??I am sure they would not stopinvestigating their family members thought, ideas, or their last moments on this earth. Have a heart and stop being a cold-hearted machine instead...
so what if the kid was a freak, or had child porn or somethin' on there? Think he wanted mommy to see that?
It may be possible that the deceased does not want their family to see anything on any of their social media. Some families are not very close. I think the social networks are smart about restricting that type of access with the possible exception of Yahoo. Did I see that they delete the account after a death certificate is presented? Now, that is irresponsible!
Its called using death as a means to get your kids pocession that was created in the first place to BE PRIVATE
stop justifying yourself as to why people want everything that was meant to be private. no trust, no respect.
if your child doesnt want you to know the account info, they wouldnt in death, dying doesnt change the fact. it is not by defualt the parents. respect the dead's wish. its like raiding a person's coffin for treasure cuz it RIGHTFULLY the parents...
You are ridiculous. You must have a lot to hide in this world.
I will say it again, if Facebook were to drop off of the radar forever everyone would be better off,
I'm with you usa. If not just for the fact that I'm sick and tired of hearing and seeing Facebook this, Facebook that.
The kid committed suicide, his parents should have the right to see what, if anything, was said. If he committed suicide, he probably wasn't thinking rationally to begin with. Maybe he didn't realize his parents would be locked out? Either way, who exactly is Facebook protecting? I can pretty much guarantee you that when I die, I'm not going to give a single crap about my "digital rights". One death certificate = one password. Not that hard Facebook.
If it isn't that hard, then tell your state government to get up off it's collective butts and include digital assets in estate law.
Want FB to give out your password to your estate after you die? Fine, all you need is a state law that protects FB when they do that...exactly like your bank is protected by law when they let your family into your safe deposit box after you die. If that law got invalidated in your state, guess what? Your bank will immediately stop letting family into SF boxes until a new law's in-effect. FB is no different. Common sense looks different depending on your perspective. Common sense for a US corporation means every single step they take has to be legally free from potential liability.
It isn't FB's job to make law in your state. You already have people you pay to do this.
have your kids agree on giving the information, or store it, or a will, or somthing.
not, "oh my child died, ALL MINE!"
Keith.....you make a very good and valid point. I agree not everything is so black & white. However, for this particular case I am in favor of the family having access to his accounts. They're looking for closure. He's dead, his parents were his next of kin......who could sue Facebook over HIS privacy? The other users he was communicating with? Since he left no note, will, etc......HE has NO say! He can claim ownership to NOTHING! The parents aren't asking for the other users account info, they're asking for their son's. And if his FB friends want to complain......this should really be a lesson to what you post online as there is a record kept of everything.....most of which.....the user has no legal ownership of. And in this case.......wouldn't Facebook be the owner?
It should follow the same rules as a living will, and a will. If there are no provisions made, then access is granted to the estate. Otherwise, you follow what is indicated in the (living) will. These online entities could also add criteria to your profile to determine what the disposition of your account is should you pass on. Something in addition to a recovery email. It's really not that difficult.
THis should be a none issue, but then society has this, as often is the case, all backwards. I'm fighting myself, to get my OWN fathers hospital records, but because my precious step mother says NO, its no. Thee is no debate about why the answer is no, should she be able to block me given my father has no stipulation anywhere that I can't access them whether in the will or anywhere else, I am the heir to his estate regardless that step mother is administrator ( my father would not have seen this mess coming, he was a decent christian individual) yet here I sit unable to obtain his records. I want them to verify how he was treated, what my step mother may have done during his illness, given instead of calling me to let me know he was in the hospital , she sent me a letter. Who does that ? So, no, the parents SHOULD get access, immeditely, with no restrictions. HE IS THEIR SON, not facebooks. This counry is far too conservative about such things,and its time that the living had accesss, unrestricted ( when they are heirs) to deceased records.
Facebook shouldn't be playing around with their hearts by being unwilling to 'comment'. What's to comment on ? It's the parents records, NOT THEIRS. This is a non issue, and im tired of people acting as if THEY have the power over someones heart and records, that someone else nurtured for years, to only have it stripped away from them by someone they either don't like ( my case; step mother doesnt like me, so she says NO access: isn't hippa wonderful) , or by some company, like facebook. facebooks can say no comment, but I reply back saying, no MORALS, no decency and clearly no feelings for family at such time. What a shame, what a bunch of nonsense. My heart goes out to the family here, so Im sending them a big hug for strength and comfort. He was their son, not facebook's.
I hope you seek a judges order. Legal heirs have the right to contest the administrator and/or executor if they feel information is being withheld. I went through this with my grandmothers estate. It was a mess. I agree that facebook should be a little more willing to help families of those deceased. This family needs some closure and want to try to find answers. As far as their privacy.... its kind of a joke if you ask me. My AOL account was hacked2 days after I signed up for Facebook and I never had a problem with AOL for YEARS prior to Facebook... I hope this family gets help and I hope you get some answers about your father. My condolences to you and your family
Hm coincidence or gods answer to greif ;)...My aunts name was danielson by marriae, and here we all..lost my aunt ( my mothers sister) recently..Iowa area. Thanks for the reminder that a judge order might fix my mess and sorry to you as well that you had to fight the sytsem, for what should have been natural rights afforded to family. A HIPPA amendment is in the works, that may well end this travesty for people such as you and I ,as it should allow family and certain caregivers more access to deceased family members. Its sometimes hard to believe we live in a cultured civil society when issues such as this come up ;) THank you again for judges order info, as though I can't afforfd a lawyer myself, I will try and obtain one from Iowa legal aid. Thank you for your kind words, and I hope you too have found solace through your journey in obtaining your grandmothers records.
UGH, spelling errors abound...please ignore...where is that spell checker when you need it ;)))
Maybe your father didn't want you to have access to his records. If you are digging for dirt on your stepmother, I hope you never get access. If you think something criminal occurred, you can file a report with the police, who will have to investigate if you have any evidence other than your own grief over your father's passing and trying to place blame somewhere, anywhere.
Same thing for these parents. Maybe their son was estranged from them, and he didn't want them to have access. Maybe not leaving a note was a small way of punishing them for something he perceives was done to him by them. And maybe he just didn't think. Or maybe he had an incurable disease and was in pain and he didn't want his parents to know. We don't know why.
I read above where someone mentioned that social media networks should have an option of picking what happens to your profile and information when you die. I would like to take that one step further and say that social media networks should FORCE you to decide what you want done with your information on your death, and that decision should have to be reinforced every six month or year, just in case you change your mind or circumstances (you get married, divorced, have kids, parents die, etc.).
Xela, no offense, but you have zero idea, what you are talking about. I"d rather not 'air dirty laundry', but given your offensive post, having NO CLUE who and what I am, I shall be happy to do so. My step mother was mean, family unfriendly to my grandmother, me, my brother and aunts , both. She sent me a 'letter' when my father went into the hospital, instead of calling me. I got the letter 7 days later oddly enough. By that time he was out of the hospital. That's not love, that's hindrance and bitterness. It is also bitterness and vengeful, to keep a child away from their own blood parents records. I need them for health and also to 'verify' negligence wasn't involved. My own grandmother had to kick my step mother out of her own house. I was never told what happened, but , my grandmother being a wonderfully delightful, loving sharing person, was not the kind to easily do that. Don't 'rock the boat' was the mentality back then, so whatever happened, I can assure you, was very abnormal, cruel and my grandmother was not the kind to take it on the chin and not fight back; nor am I. My step mother was unkind to everyone she met, at least our side of the family; to everyone. My aunt even had to take it for my fathers sake, but later on she told me how she couldn't stand our step mother either. She was a lady, as my grandmother was, so that she tell you something right there. You can assume all you wish, - maybe Im a liar, I don't personally care what you think, but I assure you that the love I was raised with by the entire family line, means more to me than something mean step mother with delusions of grandeur and of her own self worth, regardless of who it hurts. I guess she didn't have the same love I did growing up, she is mentally ill or who knows what. I can forgive it all, but I also can guarantee you, that while I breathe on this earth, I will never rest until my rights are reinstated. Sorry if you think im out for dirt. You can live with that assumption, given I gave zero evidence to that effect. I feel sorry for you, that you assume so easily.
You should think before you post, by actually asking for more information, instead of assuming ( you know what that does right ?) the worst, that Im on some evil vengeful drive to destroy my wicked step mother. She is no lady, I can assure you of that. If she were, there would be no restriction to the records. My fathers will, nor any other document contains absolutely no indication that any of his records were to be kept from me. My father loved me, and told me so a month before he passed, but then you didn't know that, and given your statements to me, not knowing me, Im positive it will mean nothing to you.
I realize I can't prove any of this to you, so its up to you to believe it or not, based on my words.
Now you know, I have no attempt to place 'blame' elsewhere, contrary to your presumption of guilt, against me. Shame on you. You seem very bitter to me.
When someone is deceased, the right to said records automatically goes to the deceased family, of which I am directly, by blood, related ( or it used to; and now hippa amendments are in the works). So the fact that my step mother, with no proof from my fathers will or any other documents, is trying to block me from access, is both immoral and unjust, and HIPPA is helping her along the way with that disgusting behavior. I am fighting it, and Ill explain one other thing to you in case Im being a tad unclear. I was raised in a loving environment, and I am a loving person to those whom express equal sentiments . I defend the right, by blood to my family, and no one, especially not a angry hateful step mother, will ever prevent me from what is rightfully mine. If that sounds angry to you, try living a day in MY SHOES. When did the rights of surviving children, diminish to zero next to vengeful step parents ? WHo knew the deceased longer and loved them equally if not more, the unkind step parent, or the child who has one heck of a lot more memories of endearment, than anyone currently living ? BUt see, you don't know any of that, and I have no intent of throwing pearl before swine, because those memories are precious, and they will not be tarnished by you, or anyone, at anytime, for any reason.
What a shame my step mother, a supposed chrisitian, doesn't fully embrace or understand, jesus teachings. I do, because I was raised in those values, every moment of everyday, I understand them, forgive her for this nonsense, but utilize those same teachings to fight for justice; for all, not just myself. No one, should ever, have to go through something like this.
Why would it be to dig dirt on the stepmother?
It's always good to know the medical history of your nearest family. My mother died of heart disease and my brother had a heart transplant when he was 37, so my doctor had me checked for the same illness when I had som vague symptoms. And it did come back positive. 10years after my mother's death I asked the hospital for her records which were sent to me; for my cardiologist, but also for myself to keep, so that my child has all the medical details of a whole family for the future.
I'm glad that my future offspring doesn't have to second-guess, but have written medical records of 2 generations.
And as for FB;
These people are desperate to find out; having been on FB I can't even imagine that they will find the reason there. It's just fluff and superficial way of interacting. I was on my 21year old son's friendlist and they interact on a completely different level than, let's say, people of more mature age.
This is just awful! Something we never anticipated at the inception of social media. What a painful way to learn that our current laws are insufficient in these cases.
Actually many people saw this coming, and have been warning your state legislatures for at least a decade that digital assets need to be covered by estate law. 44 states have done absolutely nothing about that, and now most people here are blaming FB for their own state government's inaction. Sad situation all around.
Every other week there's an article about how Facebook has terrible privacy policies and configurations, now they are being criticized for not giving up information.
I don't think they should do it. When he was alive, any private communications in his Facebook were just that, private, and were not in any way against the law. This privacy also extends to the people he conversed with, their conversation with him will also be visible. Also, I don't see his Facebook account being materially owned by him. In fact, any information you post to Facebook is then owned by Facebook.
I hope they don't give it up. It would be a step forward, as backward as it might sound to some people.
When you are dealing with estates and the deceased's property FB has no argument (Google either). Ultimately the account was the property of the deceased and as his property it goes into his Estate, the administrator/executor/executrix of which has access to all property. If you remove the emotion from this situation it's quite simple. It's just as if he had notes from old s/o's in his closet, even if it were in a locked box, the administrator would have access to those notes. The communications are just as private, and just as locked as the FB account. However, once you put it in black and white and hit "send" or write it down and give it to anyone else, you cannot control where it goes or how the other party uses it.
I agree. It seems like it would be a simple concept to work within the law and jurisdiction of probate court..... seems ridiculous that it is becoming such a big mess.
@JLynnCincy I'm afraid you're incorrect. 44 states haven't gotten around to including digital assets in their estate law, so no it legally IS NOT part of his estate. Your digital assets aren't even legally "property". It's a huge, gaping hole in the law that should have been fixed years ago. If someone steals or destroys them, the law won't help you recover. You have to sue in civil court.
Common sense says it should be, sure. But what does common sense have to do with state governments?
This is why I have created a document with the passwords to all my pertinent accounts that would be easily accessible by my family in case something happened to me. The document itself is password-locked, but the password is one that anyone in my family could easily guess (it's a "family password" that we've all used). Anyone outside the family would probably not be able to guess it, however. It's not a bad idea to create a document like this. I just have it stored on my computer, but some people include such documents in their wills or in a safety-deposit box at a bank.
Great advice, rjh4509.
I've done the same thing with my online accounts to make things easier for my heirs. I've also put a recurring reminder in my online calender to update this information as needed quarterly. Things change all the time.
I agree with those here who realize that the article's point was not to critique either the grieving family or Facebook in this situation, but to publicize their dilemma. The legal ownership and access to a deceased person's online social media accounts is an area of law that needs to be addressed.
I plan to ask my state's senator and representative to take action on this legal issue. In the meantime, I'm sticking to some great advice I got years ago: "Never put into writing what you wouldn't want to hear read out loud in court." I've since added "or post anything online" to that sentence
The cause of his death will not be found in the on-line accounts. What they are searching for does not exist. Move on.
I agree. Since he and the brother were FB friends, I am sure the brother would have told them if there were anything on his wall that showed him being depressed.
All they will probably find out is what movies he likes, and the brother could tell them that too.
However, he could have wall posts that he only made visible to himself of other chosen people. Maybe the brother couldn't see everything. Even if that's the case, I still don't think the parents are going to learn anything valuable.
probably not but these are grieving parents and want to know what happened and if they feel this might give them some needed answers, why should there be a dispute? Like a commentor said it should be treated like a lock box, once the person is deceased the executor/administrator should have the same legal right to access the information. I just read a story where a 12 year old killed himself due to online bullying.. perhaps they want to see if this happened to their son? Regardless, I don't see why Facebook is withholding this from his family. Its a sad situation
they could just pay $100 to have that account hacked, it's so easy......
Have one of their son's facebook friends show them posts, print them out and send to the parents
It said in the article the kids brother was a friend on facebook. So they should be able to see some info.
It may not all be just on his wall, though. Private messages, posts visible only to himself. The article also mentions private email. The answer they are searching for may not be on his wall, but it may be privately stored somewhere.
I feel bad for the parents, and I don't mean to sound cruel, but if this young man intended for his parents to know his inner thoughts and feelings, then he would have left a note or written journals behind.
I believe a FB is private unless the owner says otherwise which it doesn't appear he did.
This was my thought exactly.
baloney... this digital generation is something else. An email is no different than a letter or a diary. It is a record of what you have left behind and BELONGS TO THE ESTATE. What do you not understand about this?
But that doesn't apply to anything else we "own." Unless there is a will, all property goes to the estate, even the stuff you wouldn't have wanted anyone to find out about. Just because it's electronic shouldn't make it any different as far as ownership goes. The laws are just so slow to catch up. It will be another 5 years and millions of dollars spent on legal fees to get all the laws up-to-date.
(ditto frequent male flyer)
Hes dead..He lost his right to privacy the minute he SENSELESSLY decided to take his own life, Another moron who apparently has never lost anyone to suicide.
FB thinks kids over 13 are adults. Court order is what I was told and then I read this and it seems Zuke is above the law now too. Makes him look like a monster.
Our niece also killed herself and her page is still there but for those that couldn't access it, they created another page for her. Crazy!
So I am wondering if Zuke told investors they have so many members because they count the deceased.
Do people really need FB? No. Boycott it if you want to make a statement. I am.
"Makes him look like a monster."
Again!
It isn't FB's fault your digital assets aren't counted as part of your estate under your state's laws (in 44 states, according to this article). It's not that they were excluded, but that these states don't even recognize them as "property" in the first place.
I do not have a relationship with my parents and there's no way in hell I'd want them granted access to my digital assets if I were gone. This issue isn't a cut and dried as people seem to think. How do you know the deceased would want their parents pawing through their stuff?
"I do not have a relationship with my parents and there's no way in hell I'd want them granted access to my digital assets if I were gone"
Then cut them out of your estate.
And their is the point these people did or at least believed they had a good relationship with their son....they need to know what happened. If you killed yourself then your parents may not want to know why..hopefully thats not true,,but he lost his right to privacy when he took his own life. And his parents who seem to love him very much deserve the chance to try and find answers.
“I think it’s a good idea for sites not to have a blanket policy to hand this stuff over to survivors. This information is private and you assume that it’s private, you assume that your Facebook account is private, you assume that your email account is private,”
Rebecca Jeschke........You're a freaking MORON! I don't know a single person who actually believes anything they do on the internet is "private"!
Yes if you are an adult, but when I was raising my children they were openly informed that I had the right to see and know anything about them while they were in my home. Get real, and stop the name calling, what the heck is going on with the name calling lately sheesh!
Srich.......you missed the point entirely! Don't worry, I won't call you a name. The comment in the quotation marks....was a comment taken from the article by Rebecca Jeschke.....if you read it.
With that said, I agree with you. I also check the history on my computer as well. Since we have a software engineer in the house.....my children pretty much know there isn't a whole lot they can do on our computer that can't be seen or found. Or on any computer that can't be seen by someone...somewhere. My point was....NOTHING online is private!
If you've left no will........do you honestly believe you have any rights in death?
Rockin Resident #25.3: Your post is the first I've seen here that has even mentioned a will, much less alluded to the great importance of having one.
Factoid: Only one of out three Americans has a will, much less a living trust. That ratio is higher still among the young, unmarried and childless.
You may think you don't have enough assets to even need a will, but please think again. IMO this article is a wake-up call for all of us. We have valuable digital assets that should to be protected, dispersed or destroyed after we die -- a fate no one escapes.
Do you really want antiquated or inadequate state laws to decide who gets your stuff?