Without that durn profitabilty there is no business! Get a grip on reality.

Why should Healthcare be a business? Healthcare should be a Human Right.

Yes, it would be so much easier to just dump them on the street wouldn't it. I wouldn't mind walking by dead bodies everyday. We wouldn't want the city picking up the body and then having to pay to bury them would we?

Health care in this country has been not-for-profit for generations. When your life is less important than profit to a health care provider, watch out.

@nibor you should ave the right to someone else's labor because you live in a society with them. You drive on other's roads, you use other's police protection, why is medical care any different?

Jason Underhill....A HUMAN RIGHT?

Think about that statement and then tell me who enforces that crap or should. You are here...you are lucky you are. A human right to healthcare?

Either we all pay or none of us do. Which scenario has the best chance of working?

Healthcare needs to be overhauled. Primarily the costs, but also the loopholes that get exploited on all sides. I live down the street from someone who called an ambulance for a dog scratch. Only a slight mark. And the child KNEW they weren't going to have to pay for the ambulance. "Why should I drive him to the hospital when that is what the ambulance is for.

This country tried to help out a lot of people...fast forward 20 years and now it is being taken advantage of in horrendous and offensive ways. Make tough laws for violating this. People taking advantage of this country and it's people should be deported.

Why should Healthcare be a business? Healthcare should be a Human Right.

Maybe you should put yourself through nursing or medical school, incur huge educational expenses like student loans, then go forth in the world and "donate" your skills to all those deserving of that "human right", access to your knowledge and expertise for free.

Food should be a human right too, so go to your local grocery store and get whatever you want and take it for free. Don't worry about how the store will pay for it, and don't pay the farmers or ranchers, or the delivery drivers to take it to your store. It's a human right and you're entitled to it!

Must be a naive, idealistic Liberal to make that comment.

Healthcare as a right is a tough one. Do we really just want to leave these people out on the streets? Do we really want to be a society that only sees good healthcare for the wealthy, particularly in a time when there are a lot less of them (meaning a lot less of us can pay for decent healthcare?)

And yet there is a lot of abuse in the system. People purposely ripping off Medicare and Medicaid. And to top that off there are way too many people making lifestyle choices they KNOW will lead to health issues and refusing to change until its too late and they need expensive care they can't pay for.

I have yet to see any really good solutions come from any of the discussion or arguments on either side.

Jack Jones, why don't you read what you have written and think about it. Ah, does not make any sense - I thought so.

I stopped caring about what this article said the second it tried to argue AGAINST hospitals having to take patients who have no way to pay their ridiculous costs. Maybe, just maybe, the Hospital fees without insurance are absolutely insane. Think about that for a moment. This hospital is trying to argue about trying to make a profit and only seeing those that can afford it, IE, throwing out the sick into the street if they can't be covered.

Well gee Mr. Non-Profit-Organization, maybe people would pay if your prices weren't so extreme. It's much more simple for me to go see a doctor if something's wrong with me. They wonder why there are so many deaths over things that could have been treated. Simple, no one wants to pay the emergency room bill. I went to the emergency room after a shooting pain that lasted 2 weeks in my stomach, finally I couldn't take it anymore, it felt like I was about to die.

I went to the hospital, sat for about 8 hours, was finally seen, and told I had a 9mm kidney stone in me. The bill? 3k. They saw me for a total of 10 minutes, 15 at the most, and they got 3k out of me. Bull. Freakin'. Shart. Almost 4 years later they're still calling me, trying to beat money out of me, even though during that time I never had a job. I tried to tell them I didn't have a job, but they needed a reverend, a doctor, or a lawyer to tell them.

I don't go to Church, and I don't have a family doctor. Lawyers are expensive as heck, and I tried to get help from a Reverend. Them being the good Christians they are, they turned me down, and wouldn't help me out in my time of need. I bet they'd turn me into Loan Sharks if they could get away with it. These freakin' companies are ridiculous nowadays...

This is what happens when your the only capitalist developed nation without a public health care system....

and then when we finally find a way to have people not paying into the health care system by purchasing coverage actually pay for something....people say "the government should penalize you for not having coverage"..... well you better be ready for a bankrupt government then... or return to the era of insurance and hospitals denying you care when you get sick without recourse when your wronged.

I'd rather pay for it through my taxes and have a system that allows everyone to get medical treatment. I know that some might get more from it than others, but that is OK with me, because I also know that life isn't fair. If I don't need as much medical treatment as someone else, I'd consider myself the lucky one. And if I do need it, wouldn't it be great if I could count on it to be there, without having to worry about deductables and co-payments?

Right now, I have insurance, but I only go to the doctor when I'm really sick because co-payments are $40. I had to have an MRI last year - that was $500. My ENT wanted me to have some sinus tests that were going to cost $500, but I couldn't afford it. Currently I pay almost $400 in monthly premiums for this medical insurance. I'd happily pay that amount in higher taxes if it meant that all of my treatment is covered. Overall I'm a pretty healthy person and don't have any issues like high blood pressure, diabetes, etc, so I don't need a lot of medical care, but not everyone is so lucky.

DonkeyHoty - Of course it wouldn't happen, she'd be dead.

Presicely,President introduced the Mandated insurance collected by income tax Controller ( IRS )return with "NO"Mandated Insurance (illegal Alien) in hospital after birth straight go to Jail then and DEPORTED with the child, ,through Obamacare.

This What all the "Stupity" OPPOSED from the Begining.As they grow up,can,be counted as their Cheap -Labor master the 1%.While all Americans Middleclass screw-up paying the tag and this 1% got Tax Cut.

While I have to admit that our health care system needs a complete overhaul, there is a solution to this problem for the hospitals. Why don't they open up their own skilled nursing facilities. They could locate them on the premises, or close by. This way, they could actually control the costs for the patients that they are mandated to take care of in these situations. The government could give them incentives and such to offset the costs, and they would also be tax write-offs as well. Most of these private nursing facilities are a high profit service, and cost way too much for even the high priced hospitals to pay for.

I agree with many that think that proper health care should be a right, and that nobody should be forced into bankruptcy because they become ill. Yes, doctors and health care providers should be able to make money, but the system has become one where way too many are making way too much of a profit off of others unfortunate situations.

Laws need to be created to protect doctors from frivolous law suits, and to better protect patients from bad doctors and facilities. We need to control the costs of the health care, rather than just come up with another type of insurance to cover the uncontrolled rising costs of it. What we have been doing is nothing more than putting a band-aid on the problem, rather than solving the cause of it. Insurance companies do nothing more than raise premiums to the public, and deny more and more coverage to offset the rising costs. Now the government wants to mandate that we have to pay for the rising costs of insurance, or they will just tax us for it. This is a moronic solution, and does absolutely nothing to solve the real problem.

The economy is crashing, people are losing their jobs, and insurance coverage. With what work is left to be had, most are either not able to get coverage through work, or they cannot afford it with the wages that are being offered.

This is a problem that is going to explode very soon, and if we don't find a way for people to afford heath care, the hospitals are going to be going bankrupt even faster than they are now. What will we do then people?

FIX THE COST OF HEALTH CARE NOW, OR WE WILL HAVE NONE VERY SOON!!!!!!

The United States economy is going down the toilet partly as a result of people not having affordable access to healthcare coverage. Health costs are not going to diminish until we get universal coverage and take the profit motive out of it. Paying CEOs of insurance companies multi-million dollar salaries is absurd and disgusting. They make profit out of denying coverage and shrinking benefits.

The United States needs to stop being a 3rd world country when it comes to healthcare and catch up with the rest of the civilized world.

I am glad you are in the minority Michael. With Americans like you we do not need enemies.

Sooo easy to call healthcare a "right" when you don't have to figure out who's gonna pay for it.

And I don't understand all this whining about a company's profits. If your company doesn't show a profit, you don't have a job!

It's funny if you think about where our tax dollars go. Healthcare is not a human right but nuclear weapons and stealth bombers seem to be!

It's not that we can't afford Universal Healthcare - it's that we need to vote in the right people in November.

Republicans removed the Single Payer option!

This November...let's remove the Republicans!!

Vote!!!!

Sooo easy to call healthcare a "right" when you don't have to figure out who's gonna pay for it.

Who is going to pay for it? I'm sure it will be the same people who are paying for billionaires to get tax cuts on top of their already historic low tax rate. The same people who pay for our bridges and roads to be repaired and kept up to date. The same people who pay for subsidies (corporate welfare) for oil companies making record profits.

The American taxpayer, that is who. And don't start on that nonsense about 50 percent of people paying no taxes either. That is yet another well debunked Republican talking point.

Compared to what people went through and sacrificed during WWI and WWII, nobody is starving or hurting due to over taxation. If you are, then you need a new tax accountant. After two unpaid wars left us with monstrous debt, it is time for a little tax reform. The problem is, healthcare is not something anyone can afford to sacrifice.

Not one commentor advocating universal healthcare has told us how it will be paid for......oh, that's right, healthcare is a right, so it doesn't have to be paid for.

Here is how you pay for it. Tax bad habits ten fold. Sure we all have a choice and no one is taking that away from you. However if you want to smoke it should cost $50 a pack.

$25 for a big mac, $10 for a 2 liter of coke, etc.

It's habits like these that weigh down the health care system in the first place.

@Michael Anderson-1130906 I will pray, as should you, that nothing terrible happens to you or a family member through no fault of your own. It's unfortunate that you feel this way about your fellow human beings. When you start to value another life based on goods, status or bank account, you completely de-value your own life. There will ALWAYS be someone with more than you and there will always be those who can make the same kind of sad and illuminating comments you have posted. I will also pray that if you consider yourself to be a Christian, that Christ will speak to you and help heal whatever awful burden you must carry in your heart to make you so hateful....

yes, access to proper healthcare is a HUMAN RIGHT--just like having food, housing, education, and safety. These are things that make for a great society.

How do we pay for it? Just like all the rest of the developed world--through a single-payer health system. We won't have to pay any more than we do right now--we just don't give money to insurance companies so they can use it for profit. We pay in taxes, Medicare for all.

It brings down prices because there's no profit and decreased administrative costs (which take about a 3rd of our money!). In increases quality because there is more control over the outcomes.

It's a no-brainer--the rest of the developed world has already figured this out.

The primary subject of this article was in this country 20 years cleaning the houses of Americans looking for cheap, illegal labor for whom they wouldn't have to pay taxes or benefits. Where are those employers who were so willing to take advantage of the tax-free employment she offered them? Just like corporations hire the undocumented for their cheap fee and then depend on local govts to provide them with the health, education, & welfare, perhaps it's time for all these employers of the undocumented to pony up and reimburse the govts for their crime and take care of the people they hired to increase their bottom lines. We seem to be always punishing the least of us instead of those who create these problems.

As for all those who cheer for the health insurance companies zeal to secure more profits for themselves, wait until your premiums and deductibles triple or until your employer decides to get out of providing health insurance benefits altogether. There but for the grace of god....

Health care can never be a "right." There is not an unlimited supply of healthcare (unless, of course, we're going to force kids at gunpoint to put themselves thru medical/nursing school).

It's for this basic reason that Universal healthcare is riddled with its own problems. Chronic doctor and nurse shortages in Australia, UK and Canada. Sometimes significant waiting times for substantial procedures - enough that other problems may arise during the wait that result in the need for additional procedures (and additional cost). Also, the money isn't there in those systems for innovation/R&D (new technologies and new procedures).

For example, the joke in Australia is that you hope you're conscious enough to direct the ambulance driver to take you to a private hospital, because the public system is "where you go to die." But you also better be able to afford it, because private hospitals can turn you away if you can't pay. Hence, it isn't really "universal" health care. You still have to pay thru the nose for quality care.

Timely medical attention and cutting edge technologies we take for granted here in the U.S. For those expounding the virtues of Universal Healthcare, be careful what you wish for.

It seems the most obvious and logical solution, is UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE and to remove the profit factor out of healthcare.

REALITY CHECK: at least 1/4 of our adult population will ALWAYS be stuck working low wage jobs that do not come with health insurance, because our economy is such that a good portion of our work HAS TO BE LOW WAGE.

Maybe when conservatives show us how we can ensure all adults work jobs that offer insurance - that they can afford - i'll consider the possibility that private employer offered insurance (for profit) is working and a good thing.

Until then, it clearly isnt working...

or maybe we could just change the law and all uninsured (or underinsured patients) just wont be treated unless they can hand over cash before treatment/service begins.

if jesus were here, that sounds like something he would do...

let the poor suffer and die, before asking the rich to fork over a little more.

because we know we wont ask CEO's to make less, so that tomato pickers and hotel room cleaners can make more...that would make us SOCIALISTS, EEP!

ThaMonkeh

I stopped caring about what this article said the second it tried to argue AGAINST hospitals having to take patients who have no way to pay their ridiculous costs. .

I went to the hospital, sat for about 8 hours, was finally seen, and told I had a 9mm kidney stone in me. The bill? 3k. They saw me for a total of 10 minutes, 15 at the most, and they got 3k out of me. Bull. Freakin'. Shart.

You could have save yourself the trouble, if you could have went to a clinic for the fraction of that cost. You come to the ER, the medical staff think of the worst that they have to rule out. Lab draws, urine test, xrays, ct scan, iv start, medications and iv therapy, etc... Alot of people are involved in here. Registration, techs, nurses, doctors, urology, etc. Also you waited 2 weeks instead of going to a clinic right away. It's like saying I needed new brakes on my car. It cost 60 bucks to replace but I decided to wait. Then decided to go to a mechanic once the brakes is all gone and its down to bare medal. Instead of costing just 60 bucks, now its going to cost 800 to repair the damage. Same concept. You should be lucky it's jut a kidney stone and not something more serious.

Sorry to tell you buddy but you are the one of the big reason why 1) ER visit is expensive and 2) insurance cost are high. You waited at the last minute to get seen at a busy ER and you have no insurance. And 4 yrs later, you still haven't paid the bill. So....... who you think will end up paying for it?

Quote from ThaMonkeh 2.16: "Almost 4 years later they're still calling me, trying to beat money out of me, even though during that time I never had a job. I tried to tell them I didn't have a job, but they needed a reverend, a doctor, or a lawyer to tell them.

I don't go to Church, and I don't have a family doctor. Lawyers are expensive as heck, and I tried to get help from a Reverend. Them being the good Christians they are, they turned me down, and wouldn't help me out in my time of need."

Seriously? You have no job, insurance, or doctor - but think you should get free care. And then, when the providers of that care want you to pay, you go to a church -to which you don't belong- and get mad that you don't get anything free from them either?

And people wonder why "Entitlement" programs are always a point of contention.

Bart and Rob both have valid opposing points.

Jessica,

We don't turn the poor away. It is illegal for a hospital to turn people away. This is part of the funding problem. Like Rob said with "Universal Health care" you may be able to receive the care you need at a private hospital but they can turn you away. Then you are stuck waiting for care at a different hospital.

Bart, the rest of the world has figured it out through health care rationing. In Canada and Europe the wait times to see "real " doctors of many many months. We had a friend in the UK. Her 57 year old dad had a stroke. He was sent home from the hospital twice, because they said nothing was wrong. He never saw a doctor. He died 2 days later.

People still come to our hospitals in our country for complex and tricky procedures. When is the last time a resident of New Jersey flew to London for brain surgery? Never.

Obama care would not prevent many of the situations in the article. Illegal immigrants are not covered. Nursing Homes are not covered under Obamacare.

Of course Obama does not touch tort reform which would save billions. His trial lawyer buddies won't let him.

Of course, nothing has been done to reform the FDA to bring drugs and devices to market faster.

For those of you that say universal healthcare is great: when is the last time a big lumbering government agency was ever an improvement over anything?

We need healthcare reform done right. Chuck Obamacare and start over.

Rob "Timely medical attention and cutting edge technologies we take for granted here in the U.S. For those expounding the virtues of Universal Healthcare, be careful what you wish for."

Universal HealthCare is by all accounts, the exact same thing as insurance - instead of paying a company, like Blue Cross - who pays a CEO hundreds of millions of dollars...we pay in taxation, and our coverage should be the same. The govt simply pays the bill, just like Blue Cross would do.

The only difference is that UHC would have an overhead around 5% - where as private insurance overhead is around 30% so that CEO's and Shareholders can reward themselves for doing little work at all.

For Profit makes little sense.

You mention doctor shortages...Odd, we have that here too. Family Medicine is experiencing a huge shortage, long before HealthCare reform went into place. Why? Because doctors leaving college with hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt cant make enough treating patients for minor aches and pains. They go into speciality programs where they make MAD AMOUNTS OF MONEY...

which causes us to have a Sick Care industry, not a healthcare industry. When all our doctors are just waiting for us to be sick, rather than helping insure we dont get sick...it's destined to fail.

As for the joke about the ambulance in Australia. Funny, it seems conservatives peddle that same "joke" from every place where universal healthcare comes from.

Of course, the joke in America is "i cant afford health insurance, so I cant see a doctor, so i'll just wait til this small problem becomes huge, and the hospitals cant turn me away or make me pay!"

oh, but they worry about "going to die in some hospital" ..riiiiiiight. at least my joke is factual.

A national single-payor (Ted Kennedy's Medicare for all) system for basic health care is the only system that will ever provide decent, affordable healthcare for people. The government should approve all healthcare plans, to ensure the necessities are met -- acute care, preventative care, and long-term care. Pay for it through payroll taxes and individual/family premiums for plus-ups. Everybody gets preventative, and long term care coverage (skilled nursing). Aftrer that, chose your flavor of plan and what you wish to pay. If you want the Cadillac plan, you pay the premium difference. Then the Insurance industry might actually focus on providing healthcare instead of denying it.

This is exactly why everyone needs to have health insurance. It is not "obama care" it is the reasonable position that everyone needs to participate in the cost of their own care.

Please wake up 'deanied', voting Republican will keep this nonsense going. The Republicans have no solutions. They want to hand out vouchers. If people don't buy insurance with their voucher, then what? Same situation that we have today.

To Jason Underhill: Okay - why don't YOU spend 8 to 10 years learning to be a doctor, rack up hundreds of thousands of dollars in tuition debt, pass and pay for your boards and THEN go work in a "universal" care hospital getting a piddly allowance from the government for your troubles? A doctor has EARNED the right to make money in his/her profession - if they DON'T make money, why would they even study to become one? Ah! I forgot - Mao's great equalizer - everyone works so everyone eats....that only works for the lazy!

Jessica: "riiiiiiight. at least my joke is factual."

Jessica, my joke (which really is no joke) is based on first-hand experience, having lived in Australia, and having married into an Australian family. I saw it first hand - I saw stroke victims lying on gurneys for hours in the halls of a public hospital. While no one would admit to it, it certainly seemed as if they were left to die. I don't believe it was intentional - there just weren't enough service providers (particularly doctors) to attend to everyone in a timely manner.

The doctors that were worth their mettle, didn't set up shop in the public network, because they weren't adequately compensated. Originally, when the public system was first implemented, and draconian cost controls invariably had to be implemented, the best and brightest simply left the country and practiced off-shore (a boon to the Australian medical tourism trade). Ultimately, to stem the loss of talent, the Australian government loosened their original restrictions on private services, and a parallel private network sprouted (alongside the public network). Now the best and brightest practice in the private network. Those who graduated at the bottom of their class practice in the public network.

I'm sorry if that shatters your utopian vision, Jessica, but it is reality.

Bobby Jones - "We don't turn the poor away. It is illegal for a hospital to turn people away."

I suggested a "fix" to our current healthcare woes would be to change the law, so that we CAN legally turn them away (which hospitals currently CANT DO).

and since you have reading comprehension issues, that wasnt a sincere option - unless you'd like to become a 3rd world nation...

since you complained about hospitals turning people away and having to wait at another hospital, I doubt you'd be happy to find that you'd be part of the have nots...rather than the haves, and have NO HOSPITAL to go to at all.

but maybe you foolishly think you're closer to the top than the bottom...

The reason that universal health care has such long waits is that there are shortages of doctors to provide for all the patients. Why is that? It is because the doctors can't make enough money to pay for the expensive training, so they opt out of the universal systems, and stick to private practice. There, they can treat the wealthy that can afford to pay more.

What we need to do is to set up a system where the government system helps pay for the training of the doctors and other medical professions, then they don't have to worry about trying to pay off the high cost of training and can afford to work for the universal system.

To be honest, I would rather have a doctor treating me that wants to be a doctor to help people, rather than one that just wants the fancy house because he can be a millionaire doing it. It is outrageous what some doctors and specialists make in our current private system. While I don't begrudge someone making a good living, there is a point that it becomes outright thievery.

We really need to rebuild the entire system from the ground up, and quit patching it with band-aids and duct tape. Our current systems have grown into uncontrollable monsters that can no longer be patched. We must completely rethink and rebuild the system from the ground up, if we want a system that fairly works for everyone.

I think the difference for the FOR PROFIT and UNIVERSAL (as a right) health care is this. Doctors and Nurses and pharmacies and hospitals all get paid it's just nationalized. Wages and costs are SET by the government all eligible tax payers are covered 100%. Like what President Reagan did to air traffic controllers. We still have air traffic controllers although everyone predicted there wouldn't be any after 2 years.Paying student loans for nurses and doctors can be incorporated into their deductions on wages/taxes as write offs for those going into the health care sector. How to pay for it I think is the easy part. How much they're going to take out of my remaining paycheck ...that's going to be interesting.

Jessica,

You need to take the pure emotion out of your discussion. I never said hospitals should turn people away. I stated the pure facts of the issue. You read what you wanted to because that's what you wanted to read.

but foolishly you are basing a discussion on emotion and making assumptions about people and referencing "What Jesus would do" instead of sticking to the topic.

What a bunch of human filth! If they want to lower costs, they should start by lowering prices. The nerve of these guys blaming health care laws for their thievery.

I say, give em the option of becoming government employees or look for a new line of work.

SARC=0 (sarcasim equals zero, in otherwords, I mean this)

There is nothing center about this article, it is rightwing corporate bull$hit!

"Jessica, my joke (which really is no joke) is based on first-hand experience, having lived in Australia, and having married into an Australian family. I saw it first hand - I saw stroke victims lying on gurneys for hours in the halls of a public hospital."

We have public hospitals in America too, and one of them is in my home town.

It's nicknamed - Death Shore (West Shore is the actual name).

How does this reality exist, when we dont have Universal Health Care?

IM SO CONFUSED (sarcasm).

"While no one would admit to it, it certainly seemed as if they were left to die. I don't believe it was intentional - there just weren't enough service providers (particularly doctors) to attend to everyone in a timely manner."

Public Hospitals - generally - exist in smaller rural area's, or poorer inner cities (meaning, health insurance dollars arent really keeping these babies afloat - but service is needed none the less).

Private Hospitals - like the ones in the larger area I live in, and do business with (we print their materials) often rely on lots of fundraising, from lots of rich people - meaning, healthcare insurance dollars STILL arent keeping them afloat either, but at least they live and work near really rich people they can tap and say "oh please rich sir, let me host this fancy soiree and you'll give us thousands of dollars"...and they do.

"The doctors that were worth their mettle, didn't set up shop in the public network, because they weren't adequately compensated."

has nothing to do with UHC as i mention above...

"Originally, when the public system was first implemented, and draconian cost controls invariably had to be implemented, the best and brightest simply left the country and practiced off-shore (a boon to the Australian medical tourism trade). Ultimately, to stem the loss of talent, the Australian government loosened their original restrictions on private services, and a parallel private network sprouted (alongside the public network). Now the best and brightest practice in the private network. Those who graduated at the bottom of their class practice in the public network."

and before UHC existed in australia...what happened before then that caused them to have to revamp their system, if it was working OH SO WELL?

and heck, since the private hospitals are doing so well, why not just shut the public ones down? who needs em right?

well, obviously...there must be SOME need since they still exist...despite having such inferior bumbling idiots in them.

and no doubt, it's the reason we NEVER went to Death Shore in our tiny town and would travel an hour north or south to a larger city, with a "real, private hospital"...and sometimes a real, well run public hospital too.

im just confused, how has all this already existed in america, just like Australia...and we've yet to move to a Universal health care system??? perhaps you'll explain it to me.

"I'm sorry if that shatters your utopian vision, Jessica, but it is reality."

nope, you're just reinforcing the reality that exists EVERYWHERE the haves will always have good quality care, and the have nots...wont. period.

but for profit systems make it just as hard for those who THINK they have, when disaster strikes and they realize they've always been a part of the have nots from the beginning.

Bobby - I dont think you are reading too well today.

I never said you said hospitals should turn people away...maybe you're the one reading too much into things?

emotion MUST be involved...we are humans.

and since this is a predominately christian nation...asking what jesus would do is fair game. Im not a christian, but i think the hypocrite christians should have to look deep within and make this part of the topic.

would jesus say "only those who have lots of money deserve good health"

maybe he would...im not christian, I cant answer that.

Jessica,

I could just as rhetorically ask, why does any society try any controlled system (say, for example, communism) and then abandon it years later? History is full of societal experiments that didn't turn out as hoped. Universal healthcare is not immune. Australia tried it in the "purest" form, and discovered that eventually few wanted to practice medicine in their country anymore. Why? Because of the cost controls. Universal hearthcare relies on strict cost controls. So again I ask, how do you maintain quality healthcare when you diminish the reward? How are you going to force people to practice medicine when they're not going to be adequately compensated for all their hard work?

Or - there's a reason the world looks to the U.S. for the development of new and better technologies/medicines - how are you going to motivate such development when entrepreneurs and investors are limited as to payback for all their hard work and money invested?

The problem with our system of healthcare is that with the two options we have to fix it, public vs. private care, there is no right answer.

Private care costs are going to continue to increase. That is a fact.

Public care will make healthcare available to all, therefore the cost will increase. That too, is a fact.

If a solution is to be found, it must be a solution that will be for the benifit of all society.

While 'universal healthcare' wouldn't solve the cost problem, it would be the most humane. On the otherhand, service quality from overcrowded hospitals would suffer.

Private hospitals would give the best service but access to those of us that cannot afford it would be limited. Therefore there would be those who suffered needlessly.

Is there a middle ground in this argument. Hard to say since not enough disscussion about compromise in healthcare is happening.

uriah Since your post was 'collapsed' for no valid reason, I will repost it here;

'Since Federal Law says nobody can be turned away from the ER, millions of Illegals come and knowing that they're thisclose to childbirth, go to ER's in America to have their babies. Especially in border states. Hospitals lose millions, if not billions yearly from mothers who then skip out on their bills-the baby is then an American citizen. While many get stuck in the system like the people described here-why are millions of babies being born annually in the US, and taxpayers get stuck footing the bill to raise those children? Welfare and food stamps-Free Health Care, and many of these babies will stay in the welfare system their whole life...These cases are nothing compared to the abuse of the Hospitals by Illegals who know exactly what they're doing. Why not report on that abuse of the system?'

What's needed is a simple change in the law - Obviously, we don't want any patient to be turned away from an emergency room for a severe problem (despite what Justice Sotomayor thinks happens), but once they are stabilized, they should be released. I see no reason that the hospital should be responsible for ensuring their long-term care.

There is a fundamental reality behind all of this. The continuing increase of the burden on our health care system will cause it to collapse as soon as it can no longer pay to keep itself up. The catastrophe that follows will be solved by a single payer system, because, 1) the private insurance agencies will collapse along with the rest of the system, and 2) it is the quickest, simplest way to get heathcare back on line.

Once we do that, we may try a non-profit market system like Germany uses to great effect right now. In fact, I hope we do, because it's a much more efficient single payer option then a fully government run system.

All this really depends, of course, on whether we continue to follow the Roman blueprint into oblivion that has been foisted upon us by the right, and collapse as a society before healthcare has a chance to melt down.

One way or the other, we are headed back to a big crash. The former might be a good thing. The latter will result in rich people dead in the streets. That's just a historical fact.

First I want to say that nothing is a right, however health care is a necessity, not only for the individual but the entire society. As with the economy the system must flow.

I think a three person approach is necessary, the patient the community and the health care provider (doctors, nurses, facilities, etc.).

Personally I say expand medicare or medicaid for all. Which pays for x amount say 60% and then you get an insurance policy to help with the rest. Keeps everything flowing. The great thing about this approach is it can be adjusted to either become more of a communicable approach or back in the direction of individual responsibility without causing a complete collapse.

Time will tell and everything changes, you either choose to change or it changes you.

Anyone who thinks access to the best healthcare in the world is a basic human right needs to be committed to an institution for observation ... you are obviously delusional.

Whatever you don in life, I want you to provide it to other free of charge.

Do you have any idea what medical professionals endure, sacrifice and suffer with?

If not, then you're completely clueless. NO one in their right mind, no with any degree of competency person would go through the medical training the years of schooling, the hours and personal sacrifices to practice medicine so some A-hole could have free care. What you will get with free care is no care, as there will be no one to give it.

Jackasses compete jackasses

what do you know?

You sound like a doctor who has had a few to many expensive gold chain wearing medicaid patients who go to the ER with a tooth ache. I get your point but we cannot as a society ruin everything because of a bad egg here and there. Most people are good people.

lighten up! :) Life isn't permanent.

But MDB123, "What do you Know" has a very good point. How would you feel if some outside agency dictated to you how much you're going to earn for whatever service to society you provide, and that it's not going to be any different from Joe Blow down the street, regardless of skills, years of experience, any special touches you provide, etc.? I guarantee it would be a real demotivator.

Now, you might counter that Doctors shouldn't be motivated by compensation, rather they should be motivated by a love of what they do. But that would be hypocritical. I guarantee many of the commenters above are advocating holding healthcare professionals to a standard that they would think was totally unfair if they were held to comparable "caps" in their careers - there would be a lot of take-this-job-and-shove-it reactions. Hence, that's why so many socialized healthcare systems are facing doctor shortages. And it's inevitable the quality of care will deteriorate accordingly.

Rob?

That isn't my point at all? Cost as a whole or broken down into parts is still cost. Let me add death isn't free either.

I worked in the health insurance industry very briefly, for many many reasons, mainly ethical. Now I would think the actual health care provider should make more money but that just isn't the case. The salesman often make more than the damn doctors. Drop my bias? I can't! Salesman work hard to achieve their goals of early residual income retirement. Unnecessary Scum! Filth!

Still think medicare or medicaid or whatever you want to call it for all with a (x) amount of base coverage and then personal health insurance coverage for anything additional. post 2.59

My significant other works in an ER and I can tell you there are many areas that need improvement but so much one sided bias and of course finger pointing and with a desperate republican party and a corporate democratic party. WTF!?

I like Change, so when are YOU going to change?

Anyways :) best to you and yours :)

Benjamen- You are the one who cant read I made a comment about Universal health care. The health care reform laws are not the same thing and by the way is exactly what Bob Dole and the conservatards wanted back in the day. The insurance companies and Pharmacies need to be taken out of the equation and all the @$$holes on here that want to euthanize the poor... God help your vile pathetic souls. Remember... Jesus was VERY liberal you hypocrite POS! Yea this article is right wing bullsh@ for sure.

wryview

DonkeyHoty - Of course it wouldn't happen, she'd be dead.

I am not even going to try to explain to you how retarded your comment is. You get all your reasoning from a friendly source and you believe the sky is white and rainbows are black and you will never be swayed by critical thinking so I won't bother you with my silly facts. Good luck finding your way out of the hate maze you good little peasant you.

DonkeyHoty: Resorting to name-calling. Usually what one does when they have nothing of substance to offer...

So Rob are you saying something is only substantial if you agree with it? This is why it is so valid to call an idiot an idiot. BTW waaaaa isn't exactly bringing a profound statement to the table there oh wise one. Is there a website or number I can reach you at in the future to make sure my thoughts are okay with you? It amazes... No sorry, disgusts me that people like you hate Muslims so much but are exactly like them. Death to anyone who disagrees with you right... Your a real patriot, hows that for substance Jr. ???

Dude, I was just making an observation....you may have plenty of substance to offer - you just don't demonstrate it when you insult people. Moreover, by projecting very erroneous presumptions about me, you're just digging yourself in deeper...

She's not in this country illegally, she just wasn't documented as being a resident of the state of Oregon. Medicare and medicaid are run by the individual states, not the Feds.

I think that is a nice way of saying illeagle

So send her back to whatever state she is registered in.

Undocumented means illegal resident of this nation and where is INS in this? I realize she has health issues, get her stable and send her back to her country of origin or place her in protective custody of immigration services. I am all for emergency care, however once stable the patient needs to be treated like many of our nations military and veterans, send them home with a suitcase of drugs and forget their problems and forget they exist. Our veterans are treated horrible in comparison to these illegals represented in this article, seems a bit unbalanced to me. I was under the impression that emergency care is all that is necessary and a treatment plan for release is recommended but required to release the patient from the hospital (could be a state policy but not federal perhaps)

I agree - why are the American taxpayers forced to pay for these people? They should have never been been allowed in or they should have been deported when found it. What a joke!!

She's not in this country illegally, she just wasn't documented as being a resident of the state of Oregon.

She is an illegal. Get over yourself.

Not only that, but after twenty years she still can't speak the language. That's a zero effort mentality.

Ken, what does the state of Oregon have to do with this women? She is an illegal alien from the country or Poland, she is in a hospital in Chicago Illinois. Put her on the next plane to Warsaw and let the Polish government pay for her care!

The Poland native, who had cleaned homes in the Chicago area for 20 years, suffered a stroke while on the job in September 2009. An ambulance took her to Adventist La Grange Memorial Hospital in Illinois.

Ken, that's actually not correct: Medicare is a federal program. Medicaid is a state-federal partnership. Usually the federal government pays about half of Medicaid. State's pay the remainder, but have more say in how it's implemented.

if you really read through the whole article. you would have read at the end that they did send her to her back

Both illegals and legal Americans are abusing the ER system. The biggest is that they have no insurance.

Her transport may not be medically safe -- it may be quite expensive -- and the receiving state may have nothing for her -- especially if she is from a Red State.

Maybe in all those years of working she should have taken out a little health care for herself. Blue Cross, Aetna all have small policies you can purchase for yourself. Better than mooching off everyone else's dime.

good arguments... fact is not everyone in America can be employed at the same time to be able to afford healthcare.... not everyone who is working can pay for those who are not working to have healthcare.... humm.... somewhere in the middle there's a solution. :)

Jeannette, maybe where you live, a small individual policy is affordable. In some states, it is not. My son was let go from a job (the place closed). He was collecting unemployment and looked into getting a COBRA policy to cover any possible medical needs that sometimes pop up (he was/is healthy). The cheapest policies were all at least $200 a month more than he made on unemployment, and he was collecting the maximum because he had been working full time. Thankfully, he stayed healthy and found a job after a couple of months going without healthcare. By the way, he was living at home at the time, not paying rent (we suspended it for the duration of unemployment) and not going out. However, he did have car expenses - you know, like gas and repairs, since he did use his vehicle to look for a job.

"Ken, what does the state of Oregon have to do with this women? She is an illegal alien from the country or Poland, she is in a hospital in Chicago Illinois. Put her on the next plane to Warsaw and let the Polish government pay for her care!"

Which it would. And it would be 10 times less expensive to boot - for the same amount of care. The ICU does not cost more than $200 a day for standard ICU care without procedures (that is $73,000 a year).

However she might have no family in Poland and no means to support herself once out of the hospital. Her eligibility for the retirement benefits may also be questionable as she has no record of legal employment in either Poland or USA.

Bottom line her comming to the USA to work illegaly might have seem like a good idea in 1990, but the way things turned out for Poland and USA in the last 20 years she would be better off staying home.

I think that is a nice way of saying illeagle

Wait, this story's about a sick bird?

Jeanette,

Have you ever priced those "little health care" policies? They suck...big time. They can easily run several hundred a month. I doubt this woman has the financial capabilities to afford one.

A 1.4 million tab for her two year hospital stay?

....that works out to just under $2,000 per day

I'd call that a bargain - let's hear it for "The Best Health Care System In the World" (copyright 1946, the Republican Party and the AMA)

.....no wonder my doctor performs a "walletdectomy" on me everytime I visit

Health care can never be a "right." There is not an unlimited supply of healthcare (unless, of course, we're going to force kids at gunpoint to put themselves thru medical/nursing school).

There is also not an unlimited supply of sick people. No comment on forcing them at gunpoint to become ill. The idea that we are going to consume more healthcare if it is cheaper is inane. How many ultra-rich people, who could easily afford it, do you see checking themselves into hospitals for the thrill of it?

Beyond that, I find it highly ironic that people who are against socialized medicine set themselves up as the defenders of the rights of doctors to make money. I come from a family of doctors; I have yet to meet one who opposes a single payer system. Doctors in Europe and Canada are actually quite prosperous, and they don't start out life with hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. All in all, 15% of your healthcare dollars go towards nurses and doctors. Guess what? Twice that goes to processing your payments - to the insurance company - which is the only service that the insurance company really provides.

I really cannot understand why some people have so much problem seeing the inherent economic inefficiencies in our current healthcare system.

The US is 38th in terms of life expectancy (source Wikipedia, search for world life expectancy.) That puts us right behind Cuba. Australia, which apparently is so horrible that it is the subject of jokes, is 6th and Canada is 12th. These are real numbers, not anecdotes. The average Canadian lives to 81.38 years. The average Australian lives to 81.81 years. The average American lives to 78.2 years. This is the price that each and every one of us pays for not having socialized medicine. Three more years of life.

The US is #1 in one aspect of healthcare, though: we pay more than anyone else. Even if you want to make the argument that we are subsidizing the healthcare of everyone else through research, wouldn't that mean that we would be #1 in life expectancy - where it should actually show.

Most of the people in situations like this are U.S. citizens. The attempt to deflect all of our problems on someone else is a cowardly cop out.

Listening to this sort of cowardace just makes my head hurt.

The stupid! It hurts!

Of course we need to keep Obamacare! It's the only approach that comes close to dealing with some of the underlying problems in our heathcare. It doesn't address all the issues. But, due to the insanity of a political system held hostage by ideology there isn't anything better.

This is not an issue of immigration policy. It's a problem for the entire U.S. society. As long as Americans who are undereducated and under-employed, can choose between covering themselves against the risk of increasingly expense healthcare, or not, we will continue to see misallocation of expense heathcare resources. This isn't the case of, I've got mine, screw you! Which, is somehow the answer that comes out of a sense of righteous indignation. Because, very soon the unaddressed issues in heathcare will break the bank. Obamacare is a partial solution not the problem.

We need to

Hospitals (which accept federal money and run with it, by and large) can be much more easily controlled by federal law. Nursing homes are privately run businesses--and, no, the government cannot walk in and start bossing them around. This is because the government has no business bossing these businesses around.

That is why the government is, instead, trying to fix this via health care reform. Each individual state that does not like the individual mandate has the option of coming up with its own way of handling the case--some states have already set up their own methodology (Vermont, for example, chose to kick out all insurance companies and set up its own single-payer system). If you don't like the individual mandate, then hie thyself to thy state capital and start agitating for your state to come up with its own danged way for handling the problem.

As a person who is liberal, and danged tired of what is really the Republican plan of the individual mandate as a free-market solution to the health care problem--which avoids socialized medicine--getting called a "Democratic socialist plan" (that is "Obamacare"), I'm sick of it.

What do you say we just let hospitals that are privately run (which is most of them, these days) only have to provide emergency care to stabilize a person. After that, the person has ten days to find another healthcare facility which will accept him/her, or go die on the street?

I am patterning this particular plan after the Texas and Virginia "Futile Care" plan which mostly affects poor people. They avoid this problem by allowing the HOSPITAL to declare people's care "futile," and giving them a set period of time to find another care facility--after that, all care is withdrawn from the patient, who typically dies pretty quickly.

Since you don't like the Republican idea of the individual mandate (to make people responsible for their own healthcare insurance costs) now that Democrats have conceded to it (but, of course, Romneycare is still in place and everybody loves that because it was "Republican," though it looks almost exactly like "Obamacare")--what will you call my plan? Am I creating "death panels"? Why are they "death panels" when they are Democratic but just "sensible health care policies" when they are Republican?

It is the lack of consistent standards among Republicans that drives the rest of us batty. The individual mandate was a Republican idea--why do you all of a sudden not like it?

Well said.

bean - Nursing homes also accept federal money.

"Romneycare is still in place and everybody loves that because it was "Republican," though it looks almost exactly like "Obamacare")"

Beanathorne, everyone doesn't love RomneyCare. Romney care isn't any more conservative than is Romney. It does look a lot like Obamacare. And, conservatives don't like either.

Actually the government can and does come into nursing homes & start "bossing them around." It is called "Survey" and it is conducted by each state's equivilant of the Department of Social & Health Services. There are a multitude of standards nursing homes are held to & the government does indeed tell them how to run their business.

Wake up, people. WE DO PAY FOR IT. That's why our Health Insurance Premiums keep going up and we pay $50 for "Mucus Removal System (Kleenex)."

To those do-gooders who say that we are being taken to HELL for trying to come up with sensible ideas, instead of throwing money at a problem that has been deemed FUBAR ... I say this ...

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions!!!

People that should not be on our soil, by all legal standings, should not be getting free long term care. You can call me callous ... you can call me evil ... but, they are here illegally, and that is all there is to it. We should not be wasting our tax dollars on individuals who have not paid into the system and are not deserving of any governmental programs. To those that tout us to be a humane society and say that all people have to contribute, I give you one good example ... the Soviet Union. This was the pinnacle of all socialistic ideals and if you did not contribute to the good of the society, you were ostracised.

Yes, you must contribute goods and services to the society, but not without proper reinbursement; however,those that do not contribute, are not deserving of those goods and services. So how can you say that all these individuals who come here on student grants (the ones who take the education that was given to them for use in other countries), or the ones that work here tax free on work visas (only to ship their money back home before they run off), or the ones that come here to indulge in some form of criminal activity (like the ones that California keeps setting free only to be arrested after murdering someone) before departing for their native lands, deserve anything that this country has to offer its own citizens (which most have been deemed unelligable for programs); they are leeches that see a free meal and latch on.

When people come of age and pay their proper share in tax dollars, is when they should be deemed suitable for becoming part of our society and qualify for anything that this country has to offer. We should not be demanding that someone pay more for those that do not wish to PAY AT ALL!! And we should not be contributing to the walfare of peple that have never contributed to the walfare of this great nation.

And EMDF9A is absolutely correct. the SNF industry is the second-most regulated in the country. The only industry with more regs is Nuclear Energy.

About five years ago, my brother and I had to take our mother to the hospital. She was there for 2 weeks. A couple of hours after she was released, she fell and we took her back to the ER. Fortunately, she was okay; nothing broken. We were told that we had 3 choices - 1) put her into a care facility (nursing or assisted living), 2) take her home and hire someone, or 3) just leave her at the hospital, basically just abandon her. Then she would become a ward of the state and be taken care of someway or other. We were in the process of finding a care facility for her at the time she was in the hospital, so we took her home and cared for her ourselves until an opening came up at a facility. This was several years before Obamacare came into being.

@Templar King,

"the Germans" ? It sounds like you have been brain washed by Hollywood. Did you know Poland had many hardline right wingers who cooperated with the Nazis and even worked in the death camps ? It was common in France to turn over Jews to the Nazis and then later say "we didn't kill them, the Nazis did". How about the estimated 20-30 million liquidated under Joseph Stalin, and an evil prison system called the Goulag which often imprisoned it's own citizens to fill quotas. Did you know that Adolf Hitler (Austrian) admired our genocide methods used on the American "Indians"? So Templar King, maybe you should be saying "the Americans....and whipping cough....bla bla bla". It's easy to point fingers at the Germans, and even easier to forget how we wiped out an entire civilization because we had to get away from our oppressive European Lords and Kings......KIng Templar

@singe 1969

The Soviet Union "the pinnacle of all socialistic ideals"? It wasn't really Socialistic at all, true socialism never occurred in the Soviet Union, only Stalinistic Imperialism cloaked in the guise of "socialism", like China it is/was a corrupt evil system of slavery which controlled the masses and did not/does not share equally, with it's "elites" on top and citizens on the bottom(sound familiar ?).

You could look at some of the European countries where the standard of living is high and crime is low, like Sweden or Norway for a closer example of what "socialism" is really about.

Stalin was an evil dictator who capitalized on a situation after killing the Czarist regime (same nobilty that Queen Elizabeth is related to), the belief was that "socialism" was going to free the Soviet peoples, but in reality it never went into practice

Health care is not a right, emergency care probably.

Like most Americans I cannot afford a million dollar cancer or emergency bill, so I financed it like most Americans, its called insurance, maybe you've heard of it. I don't want to pay crazy fees for general care and minor sicknesses, so I pay a little more and get pre-negotiated rates, as well as annual caps on out-of-pocket expenses. Its classic risk v reward. If you choose not to buy insurance, you are choosing a very risky financial future. Everyone can afford insurance, everyone can find a job that offers insurance; you may make less, you may work more, you may not be able to buy name brand clothes or live in a luxurious palace, but everyone can get insurance. For those that decide to work off the books, or too few hours, or pleasant hours, at the cost of not having insurance; I have little sympathy for, it was their choice.

I choose to be a responsible adult and parent. Why should I be responsible for irresponsible adults and their kids as well?

In other words death panels.

"death panel" much?

Let's add "no expensive surgery for the obese, or smokers, or heavy drinkers, or anyone else who is probably going to die soon anyway."

Yeah, that sounds like a brilliant idea.

Every system that provides healthcare needs to ration that care somehow or go bankrupt. So regardless of the system, death panels exist.

So what DEATH CAMP are you working at? Oh ...is it the radical center run by the gop per chance?

Lets just throw them into the streets to die if they cant afford care. Of course there will need to be some sort of tax increase to fund the pick up of the corpses. But we cant raise taxes for any reason so I guess we can just leave them to rot where they are. If we try hard we can accelerate the transformation of the US into a third world country.

This is just another example of our idiotic patchwork approach to health care where profit must be king. Passing a law requiring hospitals to provide emergency care patched 1 hole but causes another to open. The cost must be shifted elsewhere so that is one of the reasons for high hospital bills Though it wasn't mentioned in the article I would bet that most of the hospitals involved are non-profit where the long term care industry is predominantly for profit.

Things like this will continue until the US decides to create a real health care delivery system like the rest of the civilized world

Hey...we can`t have it both ways. Everyone is screaming to cut the costs....cut the money we are spending. Well, the only way to cut the costs without controlling the costs at the source (i.e., at the doctor or hospital level which people are screaming about today) is to reduce what the money is going to. That is ourselves.

We know that something like 90% of medicare part A funds go to the last 12-18 mos of our lives when we are in the process of dying from something. We are usually in and out of the hospital as they deal with each crisis that comes along. You call it a death panel but I would call it "decision making based on real world data" as to what works and what does not work to prolong life. If life is not going to be prolonged by say eighteen months (that is an arbitrary number) then medicare does not pay for it (either A or B). It would pay for palliative care to manage the dying process. Do most cancer treatments work for the elderly? Some do if caught at stage 1 or 2 but overwhelmingly most don`t if they are stage 3 or 4. Why are we paying for cancer treatments then? Why are we paying for replacement hips in those dying of stage 4 cancer (that would be Obama's grandmother for example)? Stabilize and palliative care.

If we, as individuals, want more treatment than is allowed by funding caps then we can pay for it ourselves or buy insurance for it. Otherwise, focus on what has real bang for the buck......preventative care and treatment for chronic conditions until the person begins that decline to death.

Money, money, money, it's a rich man's world.

Money makes the world go round, the world go round, the world go round......

Money, it's a hit, don't give me any of that do-goody-good bull@!$%#.

Which best to play at the teapub convention?

So in other words when you get too old you are put out to die. Will this hold true for everyone like Cheney who gets the best of care available all on our dime. The average person could not afford the kind of medical our politicians have and they don't pay a dime for it. It's all paid by the tax payer.

Right wingers are SO myopic! Republicans always frame the conversation from the point of view of so called "limited resources." While it's true that resources for health care-- and all endeavors-- are limited -- they are much less so than it appears because they are misappropriated -- for example, there are millions upon millions of dollars spent upon the profits and salaries of health insurance executives -- and none of this money contributes to the health or well-being of individuals. There is money wasted on emergency room care because individuals and neighborhoods don't have access to primary care. (Primary care is cheaper and more effective than ER care.) There is the doctor's union which is continually trying to eliminate more cost effective providers, such as chiropractors for muscle-skeleton problems, and nurse practitioners for bread and butter day to day clinics. But for republican/libertarians the only solution for "limited" resources is to gleefully insist that some people die to prove the point.

No expensive surgeries for the elderly...

And, no medical treatment at all for morons.

I am always amazed that for some reason people believe that government run healthcare will be better. What examples can they possibly have for this? Have they been to the DMV, the Post Office or any other government run institution that they want to ever go back to? Government healthcare will not equal better healthcare. In fact, the biggest problem with the current healthcare system is that government has made laws and requirements (ie. this article) that require them to eat the costs of healthcare for un-insured and illegal immegrants. That raises the cost of healthcare for the rest of us. But, at least the rest of us can still pay for good healtcare without having to wait 8 months to see a doctor like you have to in all of the other free healtcare countries that everyone praises for being so great. Ever wonder why Canadians come to America for health care? It is free back home, but they have to wait for ever to get seen.

I imagine with Obamacare there will be private healthcare facilities that pop up to compete that all Americans who can afford it will go to. Any Doctor or Nurse worth their weight will work at a private clinic cause they can earn a decent living without all of the government overhead and paper work. Why would they go broke going to school for 12 years so the governement can tell them what they will make? Hopefully the government allows this (like Fed Ex and UPS) which compete extremely successfully for shipping business, cost the taxpayers nothing and make a ton of money, all while doing a far better job the the USPS could ever think about doing. And shipping with them doesn't cost 10 times what shipping with the governement does.

I imagine the lazyers (I mean lefters) will get their way and realize their idea of free healthcare simply won't be the ideal world they believe it will. Hopefully recovering back from it won't be as bad as I believe it will. Doctors and Nurses are already leaving the industry due to the government involvement. This will get worse and the Nurse shortage we are currently in will look ideal.

"death panels" are one of those phrases that distorts the real debate. It plays on fears that granny or, even worse, ourselves, will be denied care because we're old or chronically ill. The real discussion is, ultimately, very simple. Either we ration heathcare to reduce costs or we pay whatever it takes. There is no middle ground here.

Rationing doesn't necessarily imply that the old and sick will be sent to their deaths. It merely means that some process will take place to determine care based on anticipated outcomes, quality of life, expected life years, ...etc. against the costs of treatment options.

The only other approach is pay for a full spectrum of care from preventive care, to reactive care, to chronic care, to palliative care. This would include support for various specialized delivery models needed to deliver this system.

Ultimately, we as a society need to decide how much healthcare we want to fund. But, it becomes very hard to have the rational discussions needed when we invoke phrases like 'death panels' or 'government takeover of healthcare' as derogatory statements a priori.

Sounds terrible.

However, everyone is siting and comparing our screwed up system to other nations that have national healthcare systems, such as the UK. What we/ they fail to point out is that under the NHS is the UK an individual can NOT decide for themselves what healthcare options they want to have. Said another way, when everybody is paying for a good basic healthcare coverage you don't get to choose every last ditch/ experimental/ long shot option or procedure just because you want it. Not while everybody is paying!

The NHS have to make choices.... call them death panels if you will, but they decide to do triple bypass surgery on a 45 yr old man because statistically it is shown that he will recover and live many, many more years. However for an 85 yr old obese man who needs a triple bypass surgery will be made comfortable, but will not be given the surgery. Know why? All factual evidence says he may not even survive the surgery, and if he does will only live a year or less.

So the national heath service in the UK has to make what seems to be a cruel choice, but they have to decide (when everybody is paying) what is the best use of $100K. Prolonging somebody's life for maybe only 6 months? or on extending somebody's live for 25yrs? The harsh reality is they don't have enough money to do both............ In the US we are doing both and we can't afford it when everybody is paying. In the UK system if you want to have whatever care you want to prolong your live no matter how experimental or how low the odds are........ YOU HAVE to HAVE PRIVATE INSURANCE otherwise you can't have it.

Americans need to get over fact that it is not their god given right to have access to every medical option regardless of cost or regardless of its effectiveness to prolong life or cure a condition. The simple reality is we can't afford it!

We are saying we are broke, too much profit motivation in the system..... It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. They keep inventing new drugs and procedures to prolong life...... and our Medicare system keeps paying for a lot of it. So what do the for profit companies do? More drugs, more procedures on and on.

Check the statistics on Medicare. The percentage is staggering of what percentage of medicare is spent in the last 90 days of life. The figure is well over 60%. What this says is that 60% of the cost is incurred in the last 3 months of life........... for little or no real benefit. Not to mention those last 90 days are not of a good quality. Most people if asked if they want the doctors to go to all lengths to try to prolong their life even for a day regardless of the pain or discomfort etc they would have to go through to have it would opt to be made comfortable and not go through it all. Again we Americans shy away from having this discussion on some weird or religious grounds.

Do you know that even if you have insurance, some hospitals are already focusing on wellness and transition to death only. And not performing expensive surgeries for the elderly?

My Father, who is 62, has advanced Alzheimers and was admitted over two months ago into a local hospital near home with high fever and Pneumonia. He developed sepsis and ended up on a ventilator for 9 days. His primary doctor, rather than try to figure out what was wrong, fought with my mother to get him into hospice so he could die. He was there for 2 1/2 weeks and for every patient that went into ICU, they suggested Hospice to all of them. Most of the patients lasted no more than 24 hours before they passed on. It reminded me of a conveyor belt at a factory. All the ICU nurses also harassed my mother for the same and even tried to get me involved.They needed his bed so they could make more moeny with more patients. We refused. His lung doctor also refused. He told us to give him about 4 days to work on getting my father off the ventilator and breathing on his own. In 24hrs, he got my father to begin to breathe on his own, prescribed antibiotics, and to make a long story short, my father was able to pull through.

The fight didn't end there. Even with my mom and I wanting to take my father home and care for him ourselves, they fought to put him in a nursing home. They said doing so would keep him from needing to go to the hospital again. I believe that was the way they would make sure he didn't survive so the insurances (He has 3) wouldn't have to pay for his care. After a battle with them and letting them know we were well prepared and better able to care for him, even having a medical bed, oxygen machine etc at home, they finally let us prepare to take him home. The only thing we needed was to have them put a feeding tube in him. That was also a mess. The doctor rushed the surgery, didn't even shave chest hare around the incision, that ended up getting infected but has since healed. They sent him home same day and made us sign a form stating we can appeal his release with Medicare if we think he was released too early.

At home we even noticed that the nurses in the hospital didn't even clean him properly. He ended up with a severe fungal rash that took a few weeks to heal.

We are so frustrated with the medical community and healthcare system. Some nurses are not able to handle patients and don;t have enough experience. Some doctors don't want to have to go through the work to help you through your illness. Other local doctors don't want to make house calls because they feel the $400+ they get to come see you at home isn't enough money, even though they only see you for a few minutes.

I have so much more on this subject...It would make everyone sick. I even had my Grandfather die this past February because of a Hospital wanting to get rid of him. It's all about making money.

No matter if you are a citizen or a Legal immigrant who came to the US, worked so hard you never even took a family vacation, paid taxes, never broke any laws, donated to various charities, etc. You end up treated like garbage.

@Radical self-centered,

reminds me of a Twilight Zone episode, and YOU will be the guy in the hospital who wants to live but, you over hear your doctor saying that you should be put to sleep because of health care costs. Tragic isn't it ?

@feliznavidad

not all rightwingers are myopic, some actually know they are are doing immoral acts but are too afraid to look at the bigger picture, or themselves.

Like a lot of people they are not willing to make changes that will slow down our self created disaster we have brought upon this planet. Even if the human populace did not create global temperature change/global warming, we are responsible for killing off countless species on a daily basis, and irresponsibly accelerating the carbon gas build up with huge coal burning plants (ours are finally clean, but now it's China and India's turn to pollute), and the lack of financial/political action needed to pay off/pressure the countries in South America before they completely exterminate the rain forest.

The NHS have to make choices.... call them death panels if you will, but they decide to do triple bypass surgery on a 45 yr old man because statistically it is shown that he will recover and live many, many more years. However for an 85 yr old obese man who needs a triple bypass surgery will be made comfortable, but will not be given the surgery. Know why? All factual evidence says he may not even survive the surgery, and if he does will only live a year or less.

So the national heath service in the UK has to make what seems to be a cruel choice, but they have to decide (when everybody is paying) what is the best use of $100K. Prolonging somebody's life for maybe only 6 months? or on extending somebody's live for 25yrs? The harsh reality is they don't have enough money to do both............

If you are going strictly by statistics and life expectancies, what do you do in a case like Stephen Hawking, who has ALS? He has lived far longer than most people do with this illness. If one had gone purely by the statistics as some would suggest, perhaps he would not have been given life-saving care at all once he was diagnosed after he reached the point where he needed it. Had that been the case, the world would have missed many important discoveries and the productive output of a great mind.

Another case like this would be Christopher Reeve. Few people survive a spinal injury as severe as his. If hard choices had to be made based on survival rates, would he have been saved? If he had not been saved, the world would have missed a strong advocate for the handicapped. I don't think looking strictly at statistics and life expectancies tells the whole story, folks.

That's the spirit! Why fix the problem when you can be part of it.

Why should I take the sucker's payout?

If everyone else is playing by the rules, I'd be more than happy to as well. But if everyone else is getting healthcare for free, then why should I feel obligated to pay for it?

Don't you think that money could be better spent saving for my kid's college or helping out family members with bills or a million other things?

I pay my taxes, which are being used to pay for people's healthcare. Why pay twice?

So do any of the people in this story strike you as having a great deal? They're all pretty freaking miserable and living lives that none of them seem to be enjoying at all.

Yep, why don't you jump right on that gravy train.

If you are American, they can go after your assets, (House, cars, etc), otherwise you can give them everything and then get your "free" care.

scubasteve you gave yourself away as a xyz'er generation tea bag sucking gop who probably still thinks George II Bush was a wonderful President right? Because you embody the mind set of that type of scum who's motto is ....... "not everyone is playing by the rules so why should I?" I guess integrity wasn't on your test either was it?

I pay my taxes, which are being used to pay for people's healthcare. Why pay twice?

Hold on, scuby, why do REPUBLICANS not want the mandate that brings EVERYONE into the insurance pool? It isn't just taxes, it is all of our insurance premiums that pay for this. So you might want to rethink your support for republicans on this issue, since if they get their way this problem will explode as more and more Americans go uninsured. I don't want to live in a country that treats its people worse than animals, putting poor folks out in the street to die and infect everyone else. WTF kind of country do we want?

Human Being - (and I question that moniker) - It was LBJ who started us on this road to a health care mess with the creation of Medicare. Medicare at its start paid hospitals to spend more money. In 1983, when the federal government realized it couldn't sustain those payments, created the Prospective Payment System. This system did not cover the cost of Medicare patients. So hospitals shifted the cost to insurance companies - increase the charges for items/procedures that were mostly used by commercial insurance patients & decrease the charges for items/procedures consumed by Medicare & Medicaid patients. Charges had no relevance to the actual cost. Commercial insurance companies, tired of the charge shifting, also switched to a Prospective Payment System. Every change that commercial insurance companies have made over the past 30 years were made by Medicare first.

humanbeing-983 - you better get a clue, there are more people TODAY who want a handout than not.... they aren't there because they are suffering they are there because they are lazy and know how to play the system.

In your socialist world, everyone works... everyone pays, everyone benefits. well I hate to tell you this welfare people aren't working, disabled people aren't working... you will always have poor people but this president has gone out an advertised how the government needs to care for you and today we have more people on foodstamps than ever before. including kids in college!!!

Seriously the madness needs to stop!

If you are able, then DO. don't sit on your butt and expect something for nothing.

The people in this article were both "illegal" they took their chances on not paying for health insurance... they gambled and the US citizens are paying for their mistake. I have health insurance I buy for myself and my family. it is a major medical type of care and the rest I pay for the rest out of my own pocket. I vote conservative and I will continue to vote conservative because I don't want the government in my health care. (or anywhere else for that matter as they screw up more than they help!)

Universal Health Care Worked in Europe? Really!? Even with us paying the bulk of their defense they have unsustainable debt and are facing collapse (they have weak militaries and depend on NATO for defense, and by NATO they mean the US).
UK: 85.7% GDP (Gross Domestic Product, the size of their whole economy for thos that don't know)
France: 86.5% GDP
Greece: 165% GDP

EU as a whole is at 82.5% of combined GDP. Universal healthcare doesn't work even when you nearly delete defense spending. It's a stupid liberal idea that ends in healthcare rationing and collapse.

George, you obviously don't know that WE in the US pay almost double the percentage of GDP in healthcare costs that Europe does. Your figures are bull@!$%#. Here, I've made it easy for you, graphs and pictures:

http://www.creditloan.com/blog/2010/03/01/healthcare-costs-around-the-world/

Like it or not, in a way we already have universal healthcare in the US. If you can pay, then you are paying twice, first through taxes, and secondly through higher healthcare premiums and insurance. There are differences with our system compared to Europe, for instance about 2 years ago I met a european doctor who said they don't have so many medical malpractice lawsuits and laws, so that doctors in Europe are free to "practice medicine" without the legal paranoia that drains the life out of the US medical system.

It is unfortunate that this article seemed to be about the plight of one undocumented resident and another from a foreign country who unfortunately had a stroke while visiting. The hospital did what was right for the Polish woman having won a lawsuit which resulted in her returning to Poland. For the professor from Ubekistan probably there will be a similar scenario.

The health system is in need for a complete overall. Healthcare should not be free and I do not understand why so many believe it should. I am not heartless, but many are paying huge premiums (I am paying 1300) a month which helps to fund the care of those who cannot afford or what is becoming the more likely scenario now, having the attitude of "if he can get free care why shouldn't I)

While sitting in a hospital waiting room I overheard a woman from another country talking on the phone. She was visiting a mother who had just had a baby. Part of her conversation was and I quote "she barely made it into the US to have her baby"

We will be traveling to a foreign country this winter. We have already been reviewing travel/heath insurance plans that would cover us in a foreign country, which is obviously the right thing to do.

For those who are continually saying the poor receive no health care, this article basically clears that argument up. It is the middle class and lower middle class who are not receiving care because they either cannot afford the premium or make just a little bit over to qualify for any help, and/or cannot take the time off from work to seek medical care. Also, if they have a job and no health insurance, the hospital will make a payment plan for them. No free lunch for the middle class and lower middle class.

@usa2011

great point, many Americans have made the same or only slightly more income ($10-$20/hour) for around the past 20 years now. The CEOs of giant failing banks get severance packages and stock options, and prices just go up and up.

But did the person making $12/hour get a raise ? Probably not, neither do they qualify for healthcare, because they earn "too much". It's amazing that we actually punish people who are trying to hold down a job, and reward the ultra-rich(example:Romney has $3million in Swiss bank accounts).

And, don't forget the bankrupting thing!

The law does state that the patient has to be discharged to an appropriate facility. I suppose they could try to bend the rules and discharge a patient to the home, but then they run the risk of a malpractice suit for discharging to an inadequate facility.

I don't understand why the hospital doesn't just pay for the Skilled Nursing Facility in these extreme cases though.

So she was visiting - she should be sent back to HER country where THEY are responsible for her. Nice how their family members have also pawned her off on the American taxpayers! She's not MY mother, nor my responsibility!

Yes, the family members have pawned her off. I think they just don't want to take her in because it would be too inconvenient or costly. If they really wanted to take care of her - or had to because no one else would - they'd find a way. But it's become the american way: why do something or pay for something that you can get someone else to do or someone else to pay for! If more people would start taking care of their own family members, we'd all be better off. The government "safety net" could then be used for people who are really destitute.

WWJD?

He would heal them himself.

she was sent back to Poland please read all of the article ......and as far as I understand undocumented equals illegally in this country make the company that employed undocumented worker pay the cost or her family that more than likely brought her here

Yeah - after 20 years here - you KNOW she got some form of taxpayer money.

first of all she wasn't illegal, learn to read, second if you think anyone in this country illegally has a fat bank account someone your delusional.

Joe - she was illegal. She was undocumented. That means illegal.

We've been hearing the term "undocumented worker" for so long now, some people have been fooled by the phrase into thinking illegal immigrants are actually here legally.

No. The law signed by LBJ creating Medicare is what started this mess.

This is all Grover Cleveland's fault

Thatwould still be uspaying for them. The last time I checked the Fed did not have a job. :)

Bingo! "They don't want to pay for it".

Mandatory health insurance is no more of an abridgement of our rights then social security.

Then let's get rid of Social Security before we compound the problem with the ACA.

"Mandatory health insurance is no more of an abridgement of our rights then social security."

I agree - they're BOTH abridgements of my rights, and I have arranged my affairs so that I'll do very well without either of them.

Unfortunately, the way the law is written, when I turn 65, my privae health insurance becomes a SECONDARY payer, with Medicare becoming my primary insurance, whether I want it or not (and I don't but can't stop it).

True, I was on 'Permenent' disability for a while (New drugs made me better, yay big pharma) and they foisted Medicare on me even though I had private, individual insurance; billing me thousands of extra dollars for it.

Really? Check out Greece.

No Kathyern, check-out any of the other European countries with universal healthcare who are doing it right and taking care of their populations.

Or you can keep using Greece as an example even though their problems have nothing to do with healthcare.

Universal Health Care is a phrase spouted by the Left with no understanding of the consequences. UHC will result in rationed care more draconian than what currently exists (e.g. most hospitals will not perform a heart transplant on someone over 65, this is rationed care).

Maybe not greece, but how about Canada, Germany, France, England and all of the other industrialized nations out ther. We are last on the list of available health care. For the "best" nation in the world it is pathetic.

By the way Greeses problems have far more to do with many other issues one prominent on is the dont want to pay any taxes.

I am sorry that you are speaking truthfully, as in that case you just mentioned a viable heart should go to the best survival chance at the younger age. When all of these people have hearts, then the elderly patient can receive a transplant. I know it is cruel, but fairness needs to play a part. Should Cheney have been given a transplant, I can't answer that, but if he was not who he is, he would never have received one. We all will die, I think we all just want to be comfortable, pain free and surrounded by loved ones in our final days.

Tom - if those countries are so great at it, why do rich people in those countries come here for their care? I know someone in the U.S. who needed gall bladder surgery. I also knew someone in the UK who needed the same surgery. The patient in the US had her surgery with 3 days. The person in the UK had to wait 2 months.

Wrong Neal. Have you ever been out of the US to see first-hand how universal health care works? I have, and can tell you from personal experience that I received better care than I have ever received in the US. We once had the best health care in the world, and could again, but not until we remove the real problem - the middle-men insurance companies who do nothing but increase the costs and decrease the benefits for ALL of us.

My late husband was on the list for a heart transplant and he was told that at age 52 he was at the age limit for for the procedure. Cheney was 70+. Seems to me that something isn't kosher.

wryview, I don't know where you get your information but nobody from Western Europe is coming here to get healthcare.

To suggest that UHC will create a more draconian system that will want to take
grandma out to pasture when she turns 65 is simply wrong and is nothing more than an attecmpt to misdirect and scare people from the truth.

What we have now is rationed care, to suggest otherwise demonstrates a lack of
understanding about our current health care system and the basics of free market
principals of supply vs demand. The only difference between UHC and for profit
care is, money, or potentially even worse greed, influencing or replacing an otherwise difficult moral decision.

When you take into consideration that the usa currently ranks 37 in overall
health care according to the world health organization (that’s just above
Slovenia and Cuba), and we are spending 2x more than other countries for what
amounts to worse care. I don't know about everyone else but I would like to see my money spent on a better performing system. One that would treat all people with the dignity they deserve.

WRYVIEW,

Lets be specific her about the type of surgery you mentioned here. The person in the US obviously had health insurance or they would not have been able to have the operation at all unless they paid for it themselves. Gall Bladder surgery is done in most cases a preventative, and is not a emergency type of situation. So the two months did not matter much, My ex wife waited almost 6 months to have hers removed(just because she wanted to have it removed after the warm months.

The facts are the US is ranked 34th out of 34 industrialized nations in health cre by the WHO, that is not because we don't have the best facilities and the best doctors oh and the best technology as well. It is because the availability of health care here in the US is horrible. Over 150K people die each year in the US from a lack of care. NOT my opinion these are facts. So be careful when you point out one case without addressing all of the facts.

In Greece a lot of people(look it up) who owned swimming pools lied and claimed they didn't own pools so their taxes would be lower, and this was just the tip of the iceberg.

Like Italy,Spain,etc...bribery,payoffs and corruption run rampant. The healthcare industry didn't ruin Greece's economy

That's not actually what happens, Johnny.

Good luck with that. You will get free care only after they take averything you own. Of course you can declare bankruptcy (medical bills are the #1 reason people declare bankruptcy) and you will be able to keep a few things but that's not how I would want to live.

Well the article did say she was an undocumented resident.

I work at a county hopital ER in TX and yes, I do see both illegals and legal Americans there. I would say about half of our population are Mexicans/Hispanics. It's very hard to believe that in 20 yrs, you havent seen Mexicans or illegals in ER or ICU. But yes, I do see alot of both illegals and legal Americans with no insurance. And taxpayers and people with insurance end up footing the bills these people aquire.

SCMOUSE said:"NONE OF THEM WERE MEXICAN OR ILLEGALS!!!" working in a Calif hospital ER huh?

That comment easily exposed you as a LIAR.

It's the law to require to take care of these people. Imagine the news if you hear about hospitals dumping people out in the streets or give them a cab to nowhere. Wait a minute.... it did happened and what a bad PR move. Same people complained about abandoning these helpless people

First, they have to find a rehab facility willing to take her. And there are state laws to contend with. I used to work in a hospital that faced a similar situation. Even though we were willing to pay, no facility would accept the patient. He was a rather large man who needed specialized equipment -but was not acute enough to remain in a hospital. No one in his family would take him. He was with us for about 2 1/2 years before we were able to arrange something through the state - and that only occurred because one of our VPs was a friend with someone in the governor's office.

Everyone is able to recieve it. That's one of the issues. Everyone gets access to healthcare and only people playing by the rules (those with insurance) shoulder the cost.

Scubasteve, you're doing it wrong.

The point is that when countries -- like Germany, for example -- have a well-implemented universal healthcare system, costs are contained and everyone has reasonable access to healthcare. Because we don't have a plan for people without insurance it screws up things for everyone.

Take some time to learn how it works before you comment -- it will make you sound less foolish. Here's some reading to get you started: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_health_care

No, not everyone is able to get it. You only get it if it's emergency. If you develop cancer, that's not an emergency. You don't get treatment. When you are in the final stages and dying, then you can get end of life care, but until then - too bad. Just try and make an appointment for a non-emergency surgery without insurance. Even with insurance, hospitals and doctors are starting to insist on deposits up front before they will schedule procedures. If you need a knee replacement to be able to walk, plan on paying $200 before they will schedule the procedure. If you don't have insurance, that amount will increase to around $2,500.

krullon - and they have extremely high taxes. There is still rationing.

That's what happens when we have limited medical resources. Either everyone gets it and have to share like in Germany or like here in the US where only the people with money get the best healthcare.

Exactly. There will always be someone who doesn't get care.

So you complaining about a expensive ride on an ambulance that requires a driver and a EMT/Paramedic to an expensive ER that is open 24/7?

If you want to go really cheap, you could have refused the ambulance ride and called your GP to make an appointment or to a clinic then have your family or friend drive you there. I doubt your GP would have seen you that day or the next day since they are usually booked for weeks. You should be lucky that all they did was just wash it out with water. Especially when you stated that a chemical splashed in your eye, how much value do you put on eyesight? Did you want to get seen and treated that day or wait a few days to weeks to get seen by your GP?

If I had a choice between 400 bucks or potential loss of eyesight, I would choose the first option. Just saying......

HUH?

I've seen plenty of hospitals go bankrupt.

That type of white bashing retoric is futile. My family whom immigrated in the early 1900's didn't do anything to the native peoples, they paid for passage to an immigration facility and were allowed in. If you want to use the Indian peoples as an point for your argument heres mine. My people were raped, murdered, and there culture turned to cinder by greasy Romans both my ancestors of Germanic tribes and Irish Celts were sujugated and assimilated into their ideal so until Italy, Great Britain, and alll the Christians have a nice little check for me for the loss of land and culture I will not be bullied for my race for actions my family had nothing to do with.

Obviously, you haven't been looking because hospitals are closing everyday due to just whats been discussed. Those mamas as you refer to them should 1) not make babies they can't afford, 2) should work with their husbands or sig others to make their own country a better place to live and not put theirs unborn in danger in the first place. Does not Mexico have land to grow food. Are there not other peoples homes to clean? Restaurants, with the many tourist's who come to Mexico, to cook and and provide service. And about those Indians, look at history beyond the Americas. To the victors gos the spoils has been going on for centuries. It's called EVOLUTION. Today the Indians are being paid my hard earned over taxed dollars to buy their votes for Obama. People that have no money frequent their casinos. They're suppose to be a sovereign's nation but they are still intitled to Medicaid and Medicare even tho they don't Have to pay taxes. And last, what happens when there is no more money to pay for those poor babies or are you one of those that think that the liberal, democratic communist can print money for ever!

I didn't read about Mexico in this article. Hmmmm. You must have read something I didn't.

Were talking about all the illegal's coming here having their kids and the legal citizens of the United states footing the bill. I say send them back to mexico and let them have their kids on the mexico side, or charge mexico for all the health care and cost of the each child till it reaches the age of 18 cause thats how long we tax payers will pay for the illegal's not to mention the mother and the rest of the family that will come over here after she and the kid starts receiving the benefits

A worker for Satan.

Why should Healthcare be a business? Healthcare should be a Human Right

You got 140 votes for that silly statement.

That shows you just how liberal Americans have become.

Health care IS a business and it is NOT a human right.

Your being BORN is not even a human right.

Why should anyone have to pay for YOUR helathcare?

I disagree, France has the best healthcare in the world and it is totally socialized and free to all the citizens of the country. Better watch what you wish for, with the economy the way it is you may lose your job and then your insurance or get cancer or have someone you love get cancer or get old and then get penniless with the system we have here and do what Ayn Rand did and get on medicaid, POS that she was, she should have died before going on public assistance, as Atlas Shrugged said, there will be no compromise, until cancer got her.

Death panels, i.e. rationed care, is already here. Make no mistakes about that.

You know that death panels were never part of Obamacare, right? What people called death panels were actually social workers talking to the patient and the family and encouraging them to complete an advanced healthcare directive about what care they wanted in certain situations. Some people call them DNR's or Do Not Resusitate, but not all advanced care directives say that the person doesn't want care. Some of them say that the person wants every available option exhausted including permanent life support. It is totally up to the person who is completing the advanced directive. Now insurance companies are encouraging their members to complete these and will even give the member a discount if he/she has proof that it is complete. (I haven't heard anyone say that their insurance company had a death panel since this practice began.) If every person, insured and uninsured, would complete one, it would save millions of dollars and spare their loved ones (if they have any who care enough for them to speak for them) so much heartache and pain. It also gives the person who completes the directive the choice about how they want to live and die when they have catastrophic or near-catastrophic events.

and bear in mind, troubled righties, that "obamacare" IS NOT in effect yet.

this is how we ALREADY do.

You must be one of Satan's helper's.