There are certainly enough of a workforce of unemployed in Alabama to work the fields. Not glamorous and certainly physically hard but then if you drop out of a free and fair public school education what do you expect your prospects to be.

Oh sure, our saggy drawer, materialistic, self-centered, I-Pad obsessed youth are going to get out there and do the same job, for the same money, as immigrant/migrant farm workers?

Dream on delusional tea baggers.

I guess this is the "job creation" we were promised by Republicans.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

The immigrants will be welcomed back when they register & start paying taxes like all citizens do. America is now known as the country of free hand outs. That has to end.

If Americans weren't so fat and lazy, this wouldn't be an issue. Are there American people who would be willing to come pick these crops? Sure. But, the farmer will have to pay them more, they will work very slow, call out sick a lot more, and the turnover rate would be at least triple due to the loser, meth addicted workers constantly getting fired.

So, the HUGE draw of illegal Mexican workers is not just the low cost of the labor, but the great speed and quality of the labor. It has been at least 50 years since the average American had a work ethic like this or took this level of pride in their work. So goes the decline of America, like the Roman Empire before.

Bama- In response to your comment. If the American workers refuse to pick crops there is always prisioners that are sitting around and enjoying themselves behind barb wire that can do the work which it wont cost the farmers zero money. I say put the jailbirds to work.!!!!!!!!

In California, farmer are investing money in equipment that will do the same job that illegals have been doing in the past.

Why can't the farmers take the money that they pay illegals and use it to invest in their own futures instead?

I think its time to investigate Mr. Jerry Danford for a federal crime. Hiring illegals is aganst the law I think hes admitted that so jail him

When Danford planted watermelons last year, he estimates he paid a trucking company close to $10 million to transport them.

10 million? Is this a misprint? If he can spend that much on transportation, then he can pay more than 10$ an hour.

But what if he paid a higher hourly wage?

"The going rate now is $10 an hour. The [pickle] company wouldn’t buy it from you then,” he says. They’d turn to suppliers in other states where labor is cheaper -- states that allow undocumented immigrants to continue working under the radar.

Could someone please explain to me how this works? Why would the pickle company care how much you pay your workers?

I guess I am ignorant in the ways of farming.

The immigrants will be welcomed back when they register & start paying taxes like all citizens do. America is now known as the country of free hand outs. That has to end.

Fallacy. The did pay taxes.

Ha Ha Ha Ha ha The people of Alabama got just what they voted for!! Do I feel sorry for this farmer...NOT AT ALL.... it's about time the Republicans got exactly what they asked for. If Alabama was anymore backward, they would go back in time. Love the poor, desperate Repubs saying-"Let the American worker pick the crops the ones that are getting paid every week for nothing" AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN! You'll starve first! Or the other genius who said " If the American workers refuse to pick crops there is always prisioners that are sitting around and enjoying themselves behind barb wire that can do the work which it wont cost the farmers zero money. I say put the jailbirds to work.!!!!!!!! Yea, that's a plan! I think they should go let all the prisoners out to work some farmers crops. "Hey, don't worry, they won't bother your daughter while they're out".

Or my favorite "You get what you pay for; higher wages attract a higher quality of laborers. Clamping down on employers who hire illegals is the only way to solve our illegal immigration problem" Which might be true, except that you will go out of business immediately, because your labor costs will destroy any possible profit, as other states don't have such assinine laws, because at least some of the people had enough brains to vote it down.

I GUARANTEE that not one defender of this debacle will ever get off their fat, lazy azz and go to work for a farm, they'll just bitch about how high their food prices are and that it's Obama's fault Ha ha ha ha. Touche'

RWHALL:

I agree. If you want to solve the illegal immigration problem, you need to eliminate the reason illegals want to be here, the jobs. I believe that if we make E-Verify the law of the land and enforce the existing laws we have against hiring illegals, the problem will take care of itself. I am also a firm believer in the free market system. The employers will need to pay higher wages to attract American workers which in turn will drive the prices of some goods up. If the American consumer is unwilling to buy these goods at the new prices, than so be it, the businesses marketing these goods will fail and we will have to do without them. That is how the free market works.

SI

IF they paid a living wage for the job done the immigration problem would solve itself. American workers would take the jobs, illegal immigrants would not have work and would go home.

Bama,

"Let the American worker pick the crops the ones that are getting paid ever week for nothing."

That sounds like a good idea, but the problem is that there are not enough Americans who are willing to do that kind of work, and those who are do not have the necessary experience. Harvesting crops may not sound like a job that requires much experience, but you would be surprised if you think that way. This law is killing Alabama's agricultural business.

Entering the country without documents is an illegal act. Running a red light is an illegal act. So, to call undocumented workers "illegal" makes as much sense as calling anyone who ever committed an illegal act an "illegal".

Should we start calling prisoners "illegals"? Gimme a break.

What's all the whining about? Getting a work permit is easy and in some industries like farming there are unlimited numbers available! There is even an employer program where employers can fill the forms out for the illegal aliens.

It's very easy! All you have to do is go to the post office to get a work permit form, fill it out and send it in. Then they can't get deported.

Good grief!

bluepanther20

10 million? Is this a misprint? If he can spend that much on transportation, then he can pay more than 10$ an hour.

No misprint at all. I just hauled a load of pickling cucumbers from Uvalde TX to Green Bay WI, approx 1500 miles and it paid just over $2 a mile. I was one of 22 trucks being loaded on that day alone, so $10 million in transportation costs sound right.

Just to give you an idea why transportation costs so much -

Tractor - $120,000 -- $2200 a month

Trailer - $63,000 -- 1200 a month

Fuel - $0.70 a mile

Driver pay - Up to $0.40 a mile

Repairs - $0.08-0.12 a mile

Insurance - $0.03 a mile

Does anyone find it ironic that Republicans claim to want government out of their states business, but complain that the government wasn't doing its job so the states had to pass this law?

Alabama, in it's xenophobia, not only chased off the "illegal" pickle pickers, they chased off all the Mexicans. Good luck with your harvest schmucks.

getalifevirginia says:

It's very easy! All you have to do is go to the post office to get a work permit form, fill it out and send it in. Then they can't get deported.

Actually, it's not that easy. See the below from an associated press interview with Rachel Wilson, an immigration attorney in Tucson AZ (I can't get the link to stick):

"Out there, there is this perception that there is a process you can easily go through to become legal, but let's say you're Mexican as an example, since most of the immigrants in Tucson are from Mexico. You decide you want to move to the U.S. for economic opportunity, but if you don't have any family members here ... that will sponsor a visa for you, there is no way for them to come legally to the U.S. If a person wants a work visa in the U.S., and eventually to become a citizen, it's easier if they have a relative in the country who has legal status and can file a petition on their behalf. In those instances there are lines of people waiting -- a wait that can go from a period of a few years to sometimes almost a decade."

Mexico happens to be the most backlogged of all the countries. For example, next month the State Department will look at petitions of brothers and sisters of adult citizens that were filed in January 1994. "Let's say you're Mexican and you have a brother or sister in the United States who petitions for you. Here we are in 2010, and they are processing petitions that were filed in 1994. So that's a wait of 16 years," Wilson says.

If you needed a social security card to wok and it took 16 years to get you'd be working undocumented too, because you have to have money to live while you're waiting for ICE to get to your paperwork. That's the difference bewteen undocumenteds and illegals. Illegals are the ones who are undocumented AND have actually committed a crime; undocumenteds are here legally but ICE just hasn't gotten around to their paperwork yet, or they have lost or misplaced it in the 16 year wait time. To then penalize these people by incarceration and deportation when they are here legally would be unconstitutional--it's not fair to penalize someone for someone else's, or in this case, a government agency's, mistake.

To all of the above who say that farmers should pay their workers more, remember that means that your food in the grocery store will cost more. Is your employer going to give you a raise to make up the difference between what you pay for pickles, or cucumbers, or tomatoes? Just wondering.

After reading the article I say it's a great thing that the States are pushing the laws the Fed is supposed to enforce. Someone needs to do it! But, it would be much better if the Fed would just do it in the first place. Some States are pushing the illegal farm workers out and they go to other States that do not. It does cause a mis-match in the wages from one State to another. And it doesn't help the overall cost of illegal aliens for the country. Come on Feds, step up and do your job. Uphold the laws in this country! Make it fair for everyone!!

So, basically our conundrum is this:

We want jobs--even spend days sleeping out on the streets protesting because we don't have jobs--but we don't want THESE jobs because the work is hard and the pay is too little.

We don't want to pay more for the pickles as the consumer, so the pickle companies won't pay higher prices for the cucumbers (why the pickle companies care about the cost of labor for picking), and the farmer (who also doesn't want to pay more out of pocket) will not pay higher wages. We like that we have slaves to do the difficult tasks for next to nothing. And the slaves seem perfectly content to continue in their slavery... for a reason.

The illegals who work these jobs pay social security taxes using legal residents' social security numbers attached to false names, but the SS administration never has to pay out those benefits because the income is on ghost accounts for stolen numbers, which is why the government refuses to enforce the laws--because it is actually making money off of the illegals' illegal activity.

Meanwhile every time an illegal has a child, that child qualifies for benefits as an American citizen, so the illegal receives welfare through the child, which is one way they can afford to survive in the US while earning such low cucumber-picker wages.

Our medical system is allegedly costing us more all the time because people who can't pay their medical bills, including illegals, skip out on their bills, but I, as an actual citizen, don't skip out on my bills because I know that my name is actually attached to a real social security number, and I exist as an entity in this country who can be and will be liable for everything regarding my person. I may not have insurance, but I guarantee I pay my bills. So I'm paying higher prices in order to support illegals who skip their bills because they can simply because they are not a legal entity. And I'm going to be forced to buy insurance I can't afford, when they won't be forced to buy insurance because you can't force them to do anything because they just lie and act illegally anyway. (By the way, we all have to have auto insurance, but there are plenty of uninsured motorists out there, which is why we're sold uninsured motorist policies as well--the illegals win all the way around.)

We don't want to get rid of the illegals because 1. our hearts are too big and that would be inhumane, 2. we're making money off of them as employers, 3. we're making money off of them as consumers in the form of cheaper goods, 4. we're making money off of them as a government in the form of social security being paid in that will never have to be paid out, 5. we're making money off of them in the medical industry because we can increase prices to everyone else in order to offset the cost of thieves. I'm sure there are more reasons--heck, we can even count that ICE has no viable reason to actually enforce the laws because removing the illegals and making illegal entry more difficult and non-beneficial actually puts the ICE Workers out of a job--but I digress. The benefits of allowing them to continue committing crimes obviously outweighs the benefits of enforcing the laws that are on the books.

I suppose the real answer to our problems is that we should all be using someone else's social security number to do business. We can all skip out on "our" medical bills until the medical community lowers their prices to be affordable to people with lower wages. If you'd have to pay too much in taxes on your wage, then just lie about your social security number and set your witholdings to the minimum, and come tax time, don't file--no one ever has to know it's you. When the IRS gets too close, just move--you'll have saved up plenty of money to run and start a new life elsewhere. And on the upside, if we're all doing it, enforcing the law will be much more difficult--safety in numbers, people. Furthermore, we could all just use fake numbers for our employment, and then claim we don't make any money on our real social security numbers and taxes, so we would all qualify for benefits from the government as well--we'd even get medicare because we're actually citizens.

Either enforce the laws, or those of us who are sick of being held accountable while others are flagrantly allowed to flout the laws will begin to flout the laws as well. If they can do it, why can't we?

if the lazy Americans won't work , kick them off welfare .

it's black and white .

Interesting facts about liberals... They want the illegals to be allowed to stay for:

1) Backbreaking work for low pay (read: farm animals)

2) Long hours in hot weather (this particular farmer complained about Americans taking bathroom breaks and getting drinks of water...read: modern-day slavery)

3) Farmers that can't compete financially with farms that still use illegals (read: If they're breaking the law - I get to, too)

Liberals want to blame this illegal immigration mess on independents, republicans, and anyone else that tells them it is wrong to hire non-citizens. Facts are, liberals want to keep a class of people oppressed, treated like sub-humans, and have the audacity to complain that their rights to do so are being trampled.

While Obama is demanding congress do their job, Erick Holder sue Alabama, Arizona and will go against any other state that help the government do their job. All this is about politic and power, Democrats need the Latino and they are selling the country to illegals for their vote. If Obama had the chance to do something about an immigration reform but it wasn't his priority so in order to appease the Latino community continue protecting illegals. If Democrats where in favor of protection of human rights they should go against illegal workers , this is another way of human slavery.

bluepanther20 -

Why would the pickle company care how much you pay your workers?

The pickle company bids on crops. If the farmer has to pay workers more in wages, the bid will have to be higher from the buyers to cover the higher overhead. If the farmer's prices get too high, the cucumber buyers will buy from a farm with less overhead to save the consumer money. Once again (as usual) it is about money.

KayT,

The thing is, illegals cost the country 338 billion dollars a year. If we put that in check, then the theory is we could spend 338 billion dollars a year towards higher food prices and have more Americans working. This is a simple way to look at it I know, but it is simple economics.

Of course the farmers are angry, they have been exploiting the illegals for years, paying them $3.00 or less, and charging them for sleeping on their fields like slaves because at the end they end with nothing on their pockets, and now they cry cocodrile tears.
The real victims are the illegals here, they leave their countries just to become slaves on this one. Too sad because this country cannot take all the poor people of the world.

Oskar: Just to give you one more fact for your overloaded brain. Obama has deported more illegals than any other president. Do you think that raises his poll numbers with Hispanics?

So we see what happens when we run off the illegals but still pay Americans to do nothing. No labor on the farms. We did half the job. all we did was run off the illegals. Now a state with 11% unemployment shouldn't be hardpressed to find people for jobs Except they are being paid not to work. We have a few thousands gubmint programs and people who are good at it can collect on many at the same time. Perhaps the farmer has to pay more than $10/hr. But then you people will have to pay more for pickles and tomatoes at the store. If you are willing to do that then it will work. If not, he will grow soy beans and harvest with a machine and the illegals can stay home. Then you can buy cheap pickles from Mexico or do without. Either way it will all work out without going back to open borders and lots of illegals all over the place.

"The U.S. Justice Department, under President Obama, has sued Alabama, arguing that enforcing immigration policy is the job of the federal government, not the states."

Obama - "How dare you try to enforce a law that I refuse to enforce".

The new Oath of Office - "I, Barack Hussein Obama, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and I will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States, except the parts that I decide not to for political reasons."

Our medical system is allegedly costing us more all the time ....I may not have insurance, but I guarantee I pay my bills. So I'm paying higher prices in order to support illegals....

Liar, liar, pants on fire.

The Rand Corporation has studied this exact issue and found that:

1) unauthorized immigrants are the healthiest segment of American society and incur lower medical costs than authorized immigrants (the next healthiest) and much lower costs than the least healthy segment, US citizens.

2) Unauthorized immigrants are also the MOST likely segment of society to actually PAY for the medical services they receive. The LEAST likely segment: Deadbeat US citizens who don't bother to obtain medical insurance and then blame immigrants for the havoc that they themselves wreak on the medical system.

..of course...that's what those dumb rednecks voted for....now let them pick their own crops....lol!!...

IF they paid a living wage for the job done the immigration problem would solve itself. American workers would take the jobs, illegal immigrants would not have work and would go home.

Read the whole article. You might realize then that the American workers you claim would take the jobs have already tried and quit after a day or more. And you'll see the reasons why :

He voted for Alabama’s current governor, Robert Bentley, a Republican. But he now says he regrets that decision.

“It was an honest mistake,” Danford says, “but, you know, I feel bad over it.”

The claim that hiring Americans to do the work by paying more is a fallacy - this guy would love out to suppliers from states where they can use undocumented workers because their overheads would be less and therefore would charge less when they sell up the chain. Simple economics - something even GOPers can understand (if they read this far . . . )

“They'd want to be on break all the time, going to the bathroom, going to get a drink, or, you know, something. They just don't have the initiative to work, just plain and simple,” Danford says.

He says he bases this opinion on decades of experience with local workers who show up for a day and then quit, if they apply at all.

But as with so many who back these unconstitutional immigration laws you are not anywhere close to being fully versed in the facts. Even the subject of the article blindly votes GOP without thinking about the implications of his actions, and the best he can say is

Well this is just what we get with the GOP and their masters the Tea Party! The 'ultra-patriotic' right makes the wrong decision again, based on bigotry and ignorance! Their own voters, the conservative mostly Republican farmers of Alabama are paying the price for their ill conceived and thoughtless legislation. But hey, the Republican Governor of Alabama says wait a couple of years, possibly more and the local citizens MAY work the fields. Until then starve, lose your farm, lose your savings, and hurt your local community. This is just ONE example, of many, of the far right not knowing what the 'F' they are doing, nor do they care!

"How dare you try to enforce a law that I refuse to enforce".

Except that 1) Obama has done a more thorough job of enforcing our unAmerican immigration rules than any president since the racist quota system was introduced in the 1920s.

And 2) Alabama's laws do nothing to "enforce" immigration rules. They merely scapegoat everyone with brown skin or an accent, and they trample on the US Constitution and the basic principles of free market economics while doing so.

UnAmerican, unChristian, anti-Bible, and unworkable. THAT's what the Alabama and Arizona political politicians back. They are destorying America.

To get a work force the farmer will have to pay more which will make his cost more. He can pass that cost on to the customer or he can take less profit. We need to do things legally even if it means higher cost, I'm tired of illegals being allowed into this country, and I'm tired of these guys exploiting the illegals once they're here.

The idiot politicians won't rest until they have sent all the agricultural jobs outside our borders, just like they sent the manufacturing jobs packing by raiding factories.

We dom't put a quota on the number of people who can drive a car, why would anyone but a FOOL put a quota on the number of people allowed to WORK and PAY TAXES?

He's paying the Hispanic workers "nothing!?" $10.00 per hour is nothing!? That is probably more than many of those unemployed would receive at McD's or Burger King. The truth is that most American workers do not want to work outside in the sun & rain. I know I don't! But I have an option, I am an insurance man, working inside at a desk. Those that don't have that option can usually find some reason why they cannot perform the task (too far from home, weak back, etc!) The truth is that the lawmakers are letting the agricultural community take a killer blow just to be able to be able to say to their conservative constituents, "I stand for protecting American jobs for American people" when the American people do not want to do those jobs, under any circumstances!

The immigrants will be welcomed back when they register & start paying taxes like all citizens do.

It takes more than a decade for a Mexican to get a green card unless he/she marries a U.S. citizen. So good luck with that line of thought. We need real immigration reform, better border security, and we need to make it a crime punishible by prison time for employers hiring illegals. With out all of those we will never get a handle on illegal immigration

Based on an article on picking tomatoes a few days ago, they could double the wages for picking (to about $15 per hour) and it would add only about 2 cents to the cost of a tomato, which would probably attract plenty of legal workers.

This whole discussion is about 2 things;

1 - Growers don't want to pay a decent wage for the work.

2 - The liberal media wants to paint this as "we need those poor illegals to do 'the work Americans won't do' ".

The reality is that Americans are more than willing to pay a fraction more for some foods if the work was done by American workers and we didn't have to pay all of the tens of $Billions in welfare costs to support illegal immigrants and their families.

A crew boss of a mostly undocumented Mexican crew, Servando Popoca, says he won’t bring his men to Alabama anymore.

“They're gonna get deported,” Popoca says. “And I will not risk my crew or myself.

ITS WORKING!!!!!! THIS LAW WORKS. DONT STOP NOW!! now if only the the other states could rewrite laws that would do the same thing, hundreds of thousands of these ILLEGAL scum will finally leave. And yes if you are a CRIMINAL i can call you scum.

dieselbug,

I agree to some extent, but it wouldn't surprise me a bit if this farmer is skewing some of the facts. He is worried about his bottom line after all. And we must remember the media slant in these stories as well.

the lawmakers are letting the agricultural community take a killer blow just to be able to be able to say to their conservative constituents, "I stand for

Lying to the voters? Complete ignorance when it comes to economics? Big government telling people how to runtheir business? Bigotry and intolerance?

Obama still hasn't deported enough mesicans. They all need to go. I'm tired of the politically correct skyt about hurting Mexico's feelings. Send their trash back home with their anchor babies.

Dude I think you need to put the bottle away. Obama has a great track record on immigration. I would like you to show me who has done better in the last 5 administrations.

Nobody is questioning why this farmer needs 100 acres of such a labor intensive crop. Nobody questions why this farmer can send 22 semi loads of cukes all the way to Wisconsin instead of a smaller factory that's closer.

Our business models now days really stink. "Family farms" have gotten so big that they need 20-30 times as many employees as family members. Companies are putting up huge state of the art factories, then brag about how much they cost and how their automation cuts down line jobs, but nowhere does anyone mention that it takes a ton of trucking to get the raw materials to the factory, nor do they mention that then the product needs to get trucked back to the customer.

We've been heading down an insane road and need to come back to the middle ground somehow. We need to think more about locally grown, locally processed, local manufacturing.

Roy Wilson,

The REALITY is that neither you nor anyone else is paying tens of billions in welfare costs to support immigrants. They receive NO welfare.

THEY on the other hand, are being robbed of over 8 billion per year to shore up Social Security, and will never receive even a dime in benefits.

You usually have well reasoned arguments for your positions. Why do you resort to such blatant falsehoods on this issue? You're capable of doing research. Try someplace besides the Nazi-inspired sources of information. (Hint: if the organization was founded by John Tanton, they were dedicated at their inception to bringing Nazi "genetic" policies to America.)

@!$%# it. I don't even like pickles.

We can go back to the days of Cool Hand Luke and get chain gangs out there to do the work. Americans will NEVER go back to doing that kind of work, no matter what their situation is.

This is a Federal Government problem!! They don't want to enforce all laws of the United States, and they want to pay Americans to be lazy! If they would enforce the laws and stop paying welfare to lazy people this country would have a chance to be great once again!

Of course I know the people getting welfare that don't really deserve it will find this wrong.

Put the inmates to work like they used to do in the old days. They won't be much of a flight risk when their under the aim of buckshot. It gets them out of the prison, working to earn the same low wage. Reduce recidivism, depopulate the overcrowded prisons. Let them learn a skill other than being a criminal or druggie. hire more COs and create jobs in the community. There are solutions. Let's be smart about it.

No misprint at all. I just hauled a load of pickling cucumbers from Uvalde TX to Green Bay WI, approx 1500 miles and it paid just over $2 a mile. I was one of 22 trucks being loaded on that day alone, so $10 million in transportation costs sound right.

Just to give you an idea why transportation costs so much -

Tractor - $120,000 -- $2200 a month

Trailer - $63,000 -- 1200 a month

Fuel - $0.70 a mile

Driver pay - Up to $0.40 a mile

Repairs - $0.08-0.12 a mile

Insurance - $0.03 a mile

Wow, that sounds like a lot of money for transporting cucumbers. Why don't we have uninsured trucks and undocumented workers from out of the country do the transporting also?

Seriously, these people are criminals for hiring undocumented workers so they don't have to pay a real wage.

ITS WORKING!!!!!! THIS LAW WORKS.

What you mean is it's driving brown people, citizens and noncitizens alike, out of Alabama, which is all the 'law' was intended to do in the first place.

I can see why you're excited. First let's get rid of the Latinos, then we can start working on the African Americans. Never mind the farmers. Never mind the citizens harassed for having brown skin, speaking with an accent, or being held up for ridicule by the school district for daring to have a Spanish surname.

It won't work.

I'll bet if citizens of this country want to eat, they'd be out there picking up chicken sh*t if they had to. Problem is...everyone has a "right" to a certain "standard"...

As I see it, if your receiving free money from the government, you have no reason to work for it. If you aren't, you're more apt to get off your arse and work.

There's plenty of jobs in eastern Montana and North Dakota...why is it that companies have to throw incentives at people to get them there? Guess it really hasn't gotten bad enough for some...

This is a Federal Government problem!!

Actually, it's a farming problem.

And we should let the farmers solve it.

It's best to keep the gummint (and the bigots) out of it. The farmers KNOW what to do. The gummint (and the bigoted politicians who run it) have proven that they don't have a clue.

I better correct my grammar before some strawman troll comes along and tries to delegitimize my idea by correcting me. THEY'RE

No payroll taxes. No workers comp insurance. No need to document work place injuries. No discrimination or harassment worries. And the smallest but least of the fruits of knowingly hiring illegals, along with simply paying their recruiter 1/3 what they would have had to a legal is the fact that they know they can break federal laws galore and not be held accountable. These illegals are only trying to make a living and are being exploited by every single recruiter and business that hires them. I agree with the republicans that they need to do things the right way or be deported but I'm more interested in the people that bring them here and exploit them and even more concerned with all the businesses that break federal laws on every level without remorse or fear of being prosecuted. I'm very surprised that the Internal Revenue Service haven't gone after these criminals for tax evasions etc.

This isn't about low wages for the businesses that knowingly hire them. It's about immunity from every other law they break in connection with intentionally hiring scalpers to fill their worker quotas.

Put the inmates to work like they used to do in the old days. They won't be much of a flight risk when their under the aim of buckshot.

Or bring back slavery. Like they used to in the old days. Not much of a flight risk under the aim of buckshot, especially when the 'law' says they must be returned even if they manage to escape.

mikela...

Thanks for bringing one more piece of the larger "pie" to light. I haven't given much thought to that group of criminals...damn, our illegal immigrant problem just got bigger!

I really like the part of the article where he said he voted Republithug. So either the republithugs lied to their constituents or these peolple that voted them in have no idea what the GOp is about.

here is a quick note for you: The GOp is out for either the wealthy or themselves. Lying to the public is just a normal part of life for the republithugs.

G

Thom... from the looks of things you have nothing better than to spew your hatred on here all day, maybe you out to take one of those jobs and see how you do at it. I dont think you are as good at it as collecting food stamps and surfing the net for porn.

I see a lot of "out-of-work?", liberal arts and philosophy majors protesting in cities these days...... Some entrepreneurial farmer should pay them an extra $2 per hour to discuss philosophy between the rows of tomato's they are picking. Then sell the tomato's for $20 per pound as "cultured".

I wonder where all our Libertarian friends are - the ones who think the government has no right interfering in people's business - why aren't they out here, front and center, complaining about the government getting in between a farmer and his workers?

We're supposed to feel bad for a company that became successful by hiring people illegally, and working them like dogs, because now people are watching, and making them follow the law, they're having a hard time?

Critical Thinker...

With terms like republithugs...how can anyone take your vine name seriously? Sounds like an oxy-moron to me.

commonsense,

Have you ever stopped to think the legal immigrants wouldn't be looked at suspiciously anywhere near as much as they are if it wasn't for the illegal aliens?

Just a little common sense.

What this farmer is saying is the same thing that has been happening for decades - the people that are willing to hire the cheap illegals make it so that the honest farmers cant compete and so must also hire the illegals. So it is not Alabama that is wrong its the states around Alabama that are wrong, get a move on Feds!

Quite a while ago, national parks figured out that bears and wildlife aren't near the problem if you don't leave food and garbage out. Now, in many places they make campers have bear proof garbage cans and require you to keep food up out of reach or in bear proof containers. the blame is not on the bear for being attracted to the goodies, it's the camper's fault for attracting them in the first place.

The same principles apply to illegal immigrants. They are just trying to feed their families but if we stopped the people who are illegally hiring them, there wouldn't be much to attract the illegals to the states. The economics would eventually work.

We have the rules in place, we just need to enforce them.

commonsense...."unauthorized immigrants are the healthiest segment of American society and incur lower medical costs than authorized immigrants (the next healthiest) and much lower costs than the least healthy segment, US citizens....Unauthorized immigrants are also the MOST likely segment of society to actually PAY for the medical services they receive"

What nonsense. I live in California, and every time I have gone to the emergency room at a hospital, it is filled with Spanish speaking people, and considering the cost of a visit to the emergency room, there is no way they are paying for their visit. When I asked the admitting nurse what percentage of the Hispanic patients actually pay for their visits, she said "Almost none - they typically don't have any identification and give false addresses".

American citizens typically have insurance for their visits, but there is always a small fraction that also 'game the system', but nothing compared to the illegals.

So funny that people like Thom Davis complains about "illegal mesicans" saying they are "leeches" and want to get everything for free. Then says they are hardworking, but drive him up a wall. So, they work long hours, doing a backbreaking job, for $10 an hour, so the rest of us get our produce for a reasonable price. How much do we save every time we go to the grocery store by paying $1.50 lb for tomatoes instead of $4.00 a lb? What happens to our our already poor health if produce is priced out of the rage for many lower wage Americans? It is already too expensive for some. And we complain that they (illegals) get some stuff for "free". Oh the unfairness of it all! American workers won't do the job for $10 an hour, so these farms, if they hire American workers at a higher wage, won't be able to compete in the marketplace. Their farms go under and guess what? We end up importing our produce from Mexico. I'm not saying our current immigration policies are all good, but I'm pretty sure that the way these states are handeling them is wrong.

I have to laugh at the idiocy of those blaming Obama for not enforcing the immigration laws when it was no different under Bush. This has been going on for decades under Democrat and Republican presidents but now you idiots blame Obama.

@ Prof-1231703 comment #1.32

You do realize that this farmer you call a liberal is a lifelong Republican don't you? But then again your comment is so far off that it's absolutely stupid. It seems like you have liberals mixed up with Conservatives because everything you said holds true for Conservatives...not liberals. Liberals want people to be treated fairly...not like abused animals.

Here's a solution you won't like. Move the farming jobs to Mexico.

1. You won't have to worry about illegals coming to the U.S. to work on the farms because the jobs will be there instead of here. Solves the illegal immigration problem.
2. You won't have rotting crops in the fields since there won't be any crops.
3. The farmers can still own the business in Mexico and make the same profit (and probably more).
4. Unemployment won't change since U.S. born don't want those jobs.
5. The feds will have to enact a tax to cover the cost of the goods coming in so they will still get revenue.

My point is, if you don't want the jobs they will go elsewhere, so be careful what you ask for.

Countries have been doing this for a long time. It's called comparative advantage. If the U.S. is good at R&D and Jamaica is good at growing sugar, get your R&D from the U.S. and your sugar from Jamaica. Both countries will pay the least amount from each other and will maximize the benefits. This is Economics 101.

But isn't this shipping U.S. jobs overseas? Isn't this outsourcing? Yes and in this case it doesn't matter. We don't want these jobs anyway.

Do we?

Or bring back slavery. Like they used to in the old days. Not much of a flight risk under the aim of buckshot, especially when the 'law' says they must be returned even if they manage to escape.

Commonsense - What exactly is your point? these days people go to prison just to get free healthcare. People would be a lot less inclined to committ a crime if they knew they wouldn't be sitting on their butt in a jail cell, but rather wokring n the fields. Seems like it kills 4 or 5 birds with one stone. Where is the common sense?

TamL "Obama has a great track record on immigration."

Apparently you missed the latest policy directive from Obama;

"Stop all deportation proceedings against most illegal immigrants unless they have a felony conviction"

Gee, I wonder if Obama is pandering to the Hispanic vote?

Just because we rely on illegal labor doesn't make it right. If we start hiring legal American workers, the produce companies will just have to adjust their profit margins to make food affordable. There will be no easy fix to this mess because we have relied on illegals for 50 years to do this hard work.

I live in California, and every time I have gone to the emergency room at a hospital, it is filled with Spanish speaking people -- Roy Wilson

That's because California is filled with Spanish speaking people, Roy. But consider this: every time YOU go to an emergency room, YOU are there.

And I challenge you to back up your claim that these people are all speaking Spanish, or that they are all immigrants, or that they are all unauthorized to be in the United States of America.

How many of them have you actually spoken to, to determine whether or not they have committed the "crime" of speaking Spanish in your presence?

How many of them actually showed you their birth certificates, so that you could determine that they were foreign born?

And finally, how many visas did you personally check before you determined that someone either lacked a required visa, or had allowed their valid visa rto expire?

Here's a link to the Rand study. REAL research is a lot more meaningful than making up stories about the people you saw during your many visits to hospital emergency rooms.

"The Public Spends Little to Provide Health Care for Undocumented Immigrants" --Rand Corporation http://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RB9230/index1.html

Farmers can hire an UNLIMITED NUMBER of temporary farm helpers using the current guest worker program we have, the H2 Visa for farm help program.

What farmers are really saying is that they WANT only ILLEGAL workers, so they can cheat them out of money.

Not legal workers obtained through the current legal H2 guest workers program.

the produce companies will just have to adjust their profit margins to make food affordable

No, they'll just start buying produce from Latin America.

commonsense.... "Roy Wilson,The REALITY is that neither you nor anyone else is paying tens of billions in welfare costs to support immigrants. They receive NO welfare."

I should have clarified it to say "Welfare and social service costs" to be 'Politically Correct'. In California alone the estimated cost in social services for illegals is estimated at $10 Billion per year, so I'm sure the national total is far higher.

Your contention that illegals don't get welfare is wrong. Once they have an 'anchor baby', they qualify for all sorts of welfare services, including medical care, food stamps, etc., not to mention the education costs of their other siblings. Just the cost of keeping illegal felons in prison costs several $Billion per year in California. And over half of new babies born are to illegal parents - and taxpayers pay the bills.

This is a system 'out of control', but the Democrats are weak on enforcement because studies show that the 'anchor babies' tend to vote Democratic when they grow up. That's part of their 'long term strategy' for political control.

@ Roy Wilson

Apparently you missed the latest policy directive from Obama;

"Stop all deportation proceedings against most illegal immigrants unless they have a felony conviction"

Maybe you failed to see that this from last month's news. 400,000 deportations this year. How many did Bush deport? In fact the Republicans had control of congress and the presidency from 2001 to 2007 and never did a thing about the immigration problem but to people like you it's Obama's fault. I guess it's true, you can't fix stupid.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obamas-illegal-immigrant-crackdown-implications-hispanics/story?id=14836244#.TsFB3vLeIgA

commonsense.... "I live in California, and every time I have gone to the emergency room at a hospital, it is filled with Spanish speaking people -- Roy Wilson" 'That's because California is filled with Spanish speaking people, Roy. But consider this: every time YOU go to an emergency room, YOU are there.'

If they were Americans of Hispanic descent, I suspect they would have learned to speak English while in school. Most of the people I referenced cannot speak English and need an interpreter. And when I go to the emergency room, I have insurance to pay for it, which I have paid for.

Back to the subject article - If growers paid a decent wage, they would attract plenty of legal workers, and the extra cost to the consumer would be minimal (only about 5% of the cost of produce is from the picking cost, so doubling the picking cost to attract legal workers would only add about 5% to the consumer cost).

What's amazing is that Americans have been growing and eating vegetables and other crops since before we separated from England. Somehow all of this time we managed to harvest our crops without modern machinery, and without ILLEGAL aliens to pick them, that is, until the 20th century.

If you "have to" hire illegal aliens to harvest your crops, you're doing something wrong.

Illegal immigrants work for cheap. Why would we not want them here? This whole topic is simply asinine. American cannot survive WITHOUT "illegal" immigrants, and even if we somehow did, we'd all be broke or suffering from starvation, one or the other. Why do Republicans want to get rid of this cheap labor? It's just plain STUPID. These illegals aren't displacing unemployed Americans, they are doing the dirty work we won't do, for cheap. Oh, NO!

I swear, if the US somehow managed to solve the problem of illegal immigration, we'd almost immediately be begging for them all to come back, just to save our sorry and lazy butts from ourselves...or perhaps more accurately, to save us from conservative policies that cause even bigger problems then they could possibly pretend to solve. It's just silly short-term thinking in support of a moronic conservative ideology...and I've about had enough of that nonsense, thanks.

Bush's position on illegal immigrants?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3887721/ns/politics/t/bush-seeks-legal-status-illegal-immigrants/#.TsFDofLeIgA

ROY WILSON-336103 - Gee I wonder if you hate Hispanics much?

For your information if I happened to be in an emergency room with my family -I might just be speaking Spanish as I am bilingual. But get this, EVERYONE in my family works and EVERYONE has health insurance and EVERYONE pays their bills and taxes.

That said I haven't been in the emergency room in years- no need. YOU on the other hand say "every time I have gone to the emergency room at a hospital" DANG what's wrong with you? Sounds like you need a better diet. I sure hope the price of vegetables don't rise even more now that slower laborers who work at much higher rates will be working the fields because it doesn't sound like you eat very well as it is!

P.S. Thanks for driving up my premiums with all your visits to the ER!

Machinehead "Americans have been growing and eating vegetables and other crops since before we separated from England."

Yeah the issue was THOSE people who separated and came over to the new world were immigrants too! Hard working people willing to work hard to survive. The issue is the average John Smith of TODAY considers himself above the back breaking work his ancestors once did and is NOT willing to do it.

Larry-2260635 "@ Roy Wilson Maybe you failed to see that this from last month's news."

Your comment and link totally ignores the recent policy change wherein Obama has stopped deportations for most illegal immigrants that are already in custody.

The article you referenced was a convenient subterfuge by a compliant media to mask the real implications of Obama's policy change to stop deporting most illegal immigrants.

Roy , quit being a blind a$$. The article I post was from last month but the Bush policy was to: " President Bush called for a major overhaul of America’s immigration system Wednesday to grant legal status to millions of undocumented workers in the United States, saying the current program was not working."

Oh wait, you still say all this immigration problem started under Obama?? Never mind.

put all the Americans that are unemployed in Alabama to work in the fields .. six months later all the farmers will be getting sued and all the workers willbe on SS disability .. a win win for the unemployed in Alabama

There are several reasons why this is a good law, and people are mistaken about some.

The ten beans per hour is the going rate; stated by the farmer. That can be taken as legal rate, as I doubt the illegals are being paid this. If in fact ten an hour is the rate, I'm certain there's many that would take the job.

Then comes the pickling companies not buying because of the pay rate. This makes no sense, as all the hourly wage does is cut into the farmer's profits. And, if done legally, some can be a write off. Also, there's no reason for the rate to not come down closer to minimum wage as this is unskilled labor; you don't need folks to work long hours, just more of them to work less hours. These jobs are really meant to be part time, extra cash, etc.... . I don't believe he's even paying close to minimum wage to the illegals, so he's white washing a bit.

Then there's the system of it all, which is almost funny; the same system that has promoted farms to evolve to this size, has allowed and really promoted illegals to come in to America and has turned a blind eye to what this farmer and others have been doing for over a decade at least is not only to blame, but partially accepting of the illegal practice AND promoting that it's necessary; without it, you're hurting fellow Americans and businesses being the rationale for continuance. This should be a WTF moment for all.

When there is a supposed American business telling you that they need to break the law and employ 3rd world wage earners in order to stay in business, or that prices will sky rocket for goods, .....think China and the bogus 'global economy' because that's the EXACT mindset you're dealing with. People like this guy that can't use traitorous NAFTA and it's like to move jobs overseas to 3rd world wage earners bring them here.

All.... size, profits, etc.. will have to be scaled down to reality, corporate farms will be back to workable sizes and be businesses once again. To say that the law must be broken in order to remain in business is ridiculous, as is any reason for supporting blanket amnesty for law breakers, especially in these economic times. Don't be fooled; there's an amnesty agenda, and some, like this 'farmer', are hosing people just like NAFTA has and just like corporations have using NAFTA and the like, the loopholes.

"I think its time to investigate Mr. Jerry Danford for a federal crime. Hiring illegals is aganst the law I think hes admitted that so jail him"

Then it is time to investigate Mitt Romney for hiring illegals too.

Larry...

News Flash!!

Bush is NO longer POTUS!

...and Bush was NEVER conservative!!

News Flash!!!

As of this moment, former president Bush is still NOT president...

BG-1026147 "ROY WILSON-336103 - Gee I wonder if you hate Hispanics much? For your information if I happened to be in an emergency room with my family -I might just be speaking Spanish as I am bilingual."

Thanks for the laugh. Two of my children are half-Mexican since my former wife is Mexican. I have lots of Hispanic friends, and they are warm, humble and wonderfully hospitable - you might say the 'Salt of the Earth', and extremely hard working. I base my 'emergency room' comment on the statement by the admitting nurse, not merely the language spoken.

I think Hispanics bring much to our culture, but the problem I object to is the lack of enforcement of our immigration laws and the resulting high cost to our society.

I have to laugh at the idiocy of those blaming Obama for not enforcing the immigration laws when it was no different under Bush. This has been going on for decades under Democrat and Republican presidents but now you idiots blame Obama.

That's about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Since when is another persons mistake an excuse for yours? Obama is president NOW. So NOW he's the person to blame. When Bush was doing nothing about it, then he was the person to blame.

Yes, Bush sucked. He made mistake after mistake. But liberals seem to think that Bushes mistakes make it ok for Obama to make the same mistakes.

The only way to make Obama look good is to compare him to a screw up. What does that really say about Obama?

Roy Wilson,

commonsense is looking at the welfare as the illegals don't get it, the legal babies do. He is always touting this stuff. He is either enjoying getting people going or he is hispanic or something like this. I wonder how many of the "sympathizers" on here are employers of illegals. Anyhow, they are not worth getting upset over.

I know stating this will cause them to collapse this post as they cannot have someone show them for what they are. And that is okay, we are all entitled to our opinions. Of course this will bring on a flurry of comments about who they are, and I'm sure we still won't know who they really are.

i liked the part where the state of alabama then set up a government ran program to help farmers find workers.

man. irony alert broken much?

I read many of the posts above and really concerned. Are there THAT many people above who cannot think rationally or understand the issue?

The article implies that trying to fix the illegal immigration problem will mean there will be nobody to pick crops. DON'T MIX THE TWO!! The FIRST problem is we have people in this country ILLEGALLY!! If you cannot protect your borders and know who is in your country you CANNOT survive!!

The question is NOT whether we should allow illegals to work or we can't get pickles to market. The question is how our country enforces its own laws!! There is nothing wrong with immigration. Both Democrats AND Republicans believe in immigration - but the difference is Republicans want LEGAL immigration. Go through the proper channels. Show us you have an ability to support yourself. Show us that you are healthy medically and will not bring in any viruses or contagious diseases. THEN we will allow you to stay for a period of time with a Temporary Visa AND if you you are able to continue to find LEGAL work then you can extend.

Then the Alabama farmers tell the appropriate departments how many "pickers" they need and the appropriate department will ALLOW that many LEGAL immigrants in the country. But you forget one MAJOR problem!! Democrats have pushed through labor regulations like minimum wage, mandatory overtime for extended hours, required costs of labor (unemployment insurance, workers comp, SS/Medicare, etc.), and so on. Now those are not necessarily "wrong" but a farmer cannot pay "pickers" that kind of money and requirements so are FORCED to hire illegal workers because THAT is all they can afford. So labor laws must be "relaxed" for legal immigrants, tighten up ILLEGAL immigrants and throw them out of the country, and everything else will work itself out.

Lu at post #1.30: Best post I've read in a very long time! Thank you.

Yes, Bush sucked. He made mistake after mistake. But liberals seem to think that Bushes mistakes make it ok for Obama to make the same mistakes.

The only way to make Obama look good is to compare him to a screw up. What does that really say about Obama?

BS.

That is not even close to the point. the real issue is the big deal being made about immigration, border jumping, jobs, bank failures, drug war, bringing our troops home, unemployment, increased debt, loss of privacy, government bail-outs, energy consumption...etc. Hurry up, why isn't fixed yet...

You (collectively - GOPper's - had nothing to say during 2 terms under Bush. )

Seriously... Now, its a problem? Now it "must" be fixed yesterday?

Everyone of those issues has been a headline issue during the Bush debacle, yet you were not only silent, you actively tried to label anyone who had the good sense to complain as being unAmerican! Stay the course, get behind the jester...even when the war was finally proven to be fabricated, you guys resisted the naked truth.

I think the best solution would be to set up Social Security booths at all border crossings, issue SSAN's as anyone that wants one enters the country, and tell them to get to work. Then maybe Social Security will be around when you retire. One of the things all of you rocket scientist have not addressed is how someone with a family is going to support them on 10 dollars an hour working the two weeks needed to pick the cucumbers. Then what. Most of the individuals performing these jobs travel over large areas of the country, showing up when the crops need to be picked. I do not profess to have the answer, but it really is an impressive organization that has worked quite well. Now you expect the government to fix it. No wonder we are no longer in the space business.

Probusiness; see my post 1.101.

There can be no relaxing on OT, minimum wage, SS, workers comp, .... that would surely start a downturn none would accept.

That people still would say what you have makes me re-think my position on modern day unions, as I'd respected them in the past but believe many have become abusive.

@ cantakenomore

I'm well aware that Bush is not the president anymore...thank God. My comment is merely to point out the hypocrisy of those that blame Obama but fail to see that the immigration policy is the same today as it was under Bush.

Here is what is pathetic about people such as the politicians in Arizona and Alabama etc. NAFTA ONLY worked well because we had illegal labor. America has USED illegal labor for decades and decades. It is only a MISDEMEANOR to be here illegally because we need illegal labor for farmers and the "LITTLE guys" to compete against corporations when they are starting out. ; ]

We can all see that there are STILL and will always be those jobs Americans do not want to do and will not want to do and DO NOT do to this day.

Sadly America was successful in its infancy due to slavery or it NEVER would have competed on equal footing as France and Britain. It was and remains despicable. But the understanding of a better life here for immigrants even at lower wages perpetuated a quid pro quo that worked for the immigrants and the Americans who hired them. When you speak of unfair tax law you are able to compete with rich folks and corporations by hiring under the table labor at a lower wage. But not anymore.

And now we are seeing what I have been explaining for YEARS as my readers know. Business declining and people leaving in exodus states like Arizona and soon Alabama and anywhere else that does this. Anywhere else that plays JUDAS to those who built there local economy. Because those places economy does not go around without those who helped create and perpetuate it.; ]

Cheers

commonsense....

I live in California, and every time I have gone to the emergency room at a hospital, it is filled with Spanish speaking people -- Roy Wilson

That's because California is filled with Spanish speaking people, Roy. But consider this: every time YOU go to an emergency room, YOU are there.

And I challenge you to back up your claim that these people are all speaking Spanish, or that they are all immigrants, or that they are all unauthorized to be in the United States of America.

How many of them have you actually spoken to, to determine whether or not they have committed the "crime" of speaking Spanish in your presence?

How many of them actually showed you their birth certificates, so that you could determine that they were foreign born?

I have to agree with Wilson there. I work in a busy ER at a county hospital in Texas. We do get a large % of illegals that go through there because it requires no insurance. We treat them first and ask method of payment later. OF course they never end up paying because they believe its free. It's pretty obvious they are illegals and you don't need a degree in commonsense to figure that out. Middle age and older, very polite and quiet, no insurance and can only speak english.

The pool of labor that they want is currently occupying wall street complaining that they don't have jobs.

" Obama is deporting more illegals than Bush"

This is another spin , from the first statement of ICE that state in 2009 47% increase in deportations a non credible number, they correct few month after, now this number went down to an increase of 5% , however this year numbers are even lower ICE report 17 % lower than previous year. Obama need the Latino vote and he won't do nothing that hurt his path to the re-election. Source Washington Post

Larry,

So...did you blame Bush? if so, you are blaming Obama now, aren't you?

We conservatives blamed Bush for a number of things...immigration policy, never vetoing crappy bills, pushing us deeper into the middle east, etc.

Bush was as far a cry from a conservative president as Obama is transparent...

@NVart: So $10 an hour is a decent wage for back breaking work picking produce? What planet do you live on NV? Assuming these lucky field hands are working 40 hrs a week, that would amount to $400 a week, minus about 25% for Federal, State and FICA (SS) taxes, resulting in a take home of around $300 a week, $1200 a month, and a grand total of $14,400 a year. Gee, those pickle pickers could live like friggin' kings on 14 grand a year, eh NV? News flash genius, with a wife and kid that's called a POVERTY wage, not a decent wage. Oh yeah, the wife should be working at least 2 jobs to take up the slack, right? I suggest you do the math first before making such an ignorant statement NV. And this, and every other farmer paying 10 bucks an hour for this kind of work should know they're paying slave wages and should be ashamed of themselves.

RICKM- illegals are not paid cash, and pay income tax under their shared ss#, they don't file tax returns, more $ for uncle sam. they are much more productive in the community than your average legal alabama middle school drop out.

Boo Hoo--- these lawbreakers aren't going to be able to participate in the black-market labor scheme on which they have previously relied to pay poverty level wages and no benefits --- so sad (sarcasm)--- Now-- you're actually going to have to pay a true market wage rather than continuing to subvert American law.

But let me ask you this lawbreakers---

* Did you provide health insurance for your ILLEGAL workforce? NO? Who do you think gets to subsidize your lawbreaking enterprise? The American taxpayers--- that's who (as when illegals have no health insurance, their medical insurance is funded by the American taxpayers). When will you be refunding the American taxpayers and the national treasury?

Did you pay the employer portion of social security taxes for your ILLEGAL workforce? NO? You have defrauded American taxpayers again!!! When can we expect your deposit into the national treasury?

Do your ILLEGAL workers have children who attend American public schools? Did your ILLEGAL workers pay enough in taxes to cover the thousands of dollars per child for this education? NO becuase they didn't make enough? Who, once again, is subsidizing your ILLEGAL workforce--- THE AMERICAN TAXPAYER!

Cheap Labor is not Cheap---- it's just that the lawbreakers have endeavored to shift the true costs of doing business onto the American taxpayers rather than themselves!

gelly...

but they are STILL illegal and shouldn't be here.

LMAO! This is the best!

Douchebag Party proving they are as stupid as the radical left.

This is what happens when a bunch of yahoos choose the wrong method of solving the right problem.

The Federal Government can and should be smaller, but for the right reasons, not the stupid Douchebag Party reasons. Immigration is a national issue, not an issue Alabama, or Arizona or any other knuckleheaded state is going to solve. And I understand the desire of the states, since the Fed has done nothing as its politicians are bought out by CEO's trying to move their companies' workforces to slave shops in China. But that doesn't mean you can change things with laws enacted by your state legistlature.

LYING are the people (generally from the left) that say the US workforce is too lazy to take these jobs.

Because the American workforce works hard jobs, like steel mill and mining jobs. But no American worker wants to be paid zero for their trouble. And you can't raise the price of produce in one state, like Alabama, to properly compensate workers, when the state next door has illegal immigrant workers being paid zero and accepting it. Nationally, American workers would need to get higher salaries to be properly compensated, and then your average family would need to pay more for food, which means they would need higher salaries from their penny pinching companies that only want to increase profits by cutting costs, instead of making worthwhile top line increases to pay these salaries.

That will never happen because your average CEO is stupid. It is easier for them to hand off their work to accountants to fire people, than to actually make a company do something useful.

So, until we get American companies that do not suck a$$, run by CEO's who do not suck a$$, and pay our workers salaries that do not suck a$$, and stop being so idiotic as to shop at WalMart to save a few bucks, this won't change. The joke is while your average American worker wants to save by buying at WalMart and getting dirt cheap produce, they are giving companies the perfect excuse to keep shipping their jobs overseas.

Good luck with saving $1 on your fruit while you lose your salary.

There is nothing wrong with immigration. Both Democrats AND Republicans believe in immigration - but the difference is Republicans want LEGAL immigration. Go through the proper channels.

Everyone wants legal immigration. What the "liberals" don't want is unlawful search and seizure of legal US citizens just because they happen to have Hispanic ancestors. Does anyone actually believe that "liberals" benefit from having illegal immigrants doing the jobs of our Americans when the "liberal unions" have been fighting against the illegals for years? Get you head out of your arse and realize that everyone has been against illegals for as long as I've been alive except the businesses and farmers that use the cheap labor for profit. It's the method of enforcing the law that I have a problem with and personally I see nothing wrong with the Alabama law as long as a person's rights have not been violated. Businesses and farmers should have been required for the last 50 years to verify that a person was a legal citizen before hiring them. It's just that the people that used them had the political power to stop the government from doing it.

http://www.fresnobee.com/2010/11/14/2156116/are-we-in-denial-about-illegal.html

This illegals are going to vote for Democrats , this is why they don't want illegals show their IDs. In poorer countries like Peru in South America to show their ID in election day is mandatory, why Democrats in US oppose this requirement . Unions don't fight anymore against illegals as long they are part of an Union and pay their dues.

I live in Tuscaloosa (Roll Tide!) so I am right in the middle of both the debate and the area in question.

1) The article was incorrect: It stated that a UA report said that there would be an estimated $40 million lost. I read that report. The $40 million was only in direct losses to farmers from unpicked crops and unfulfilled contracts. The report went on to say that the losses to the state would be $100-120 million in lost taxes and an undetermined additional amount in lost taxes to localities.

2) It turns out that the illegal immigrants do pay taxes ---- just like the rest of the country they pay sales taxes, gasoline taxes, personal property taxes and numerous fees to local and state governments and most pay both payroll and income taxes to the federal government and state government as well. Do you think that if an illegal immigrant gopes into a store and buys a coke that they just skip the sales tax?

3) Right now the state of Alabama is trying to find further cuts to make up for the $100 million plus in lost tax income. They are considering cuts to senior services to replace the income. This does not count the lost income from, for example, transporting the crops that weren't picked to market. Within a mile of my house there are two grocery stores and one butcher shop that catered to Hispanics. I have no idea whether the owners were legal or illegal. My guess is legal. But it makes no difference because all three are now closed and that tax income to the city is lost.

4) I grew up "in the country" though I was lucky enough to escape the life. I do not know of a farmer that would himself, or allow a family member to pick his own crops. Farmers can't do the work and know it and it is not something they want for their familes. If they won't let their children do it, why would you think that someone who just lost a good job with benefits would want to do it. It is incredibly difficult work and involves exposures to toxic chemicals (both legal and illegal) and slave-like working conditions. The people are NOT paid by the hour as the article implied. They are paid by the pound, box, or basket. If you check in a basket with a "defect" you get nothing for it. A person who hadn't done it before would be extremely lucky to make $3 an hour. A good tomato-picker can make as much as $8 an hour. The farmers pay them as "independent contractors" and withhold taxes out of that and report it on a 1099. The taxes are then confiscated by the IRS because the SSN is bad. The fact is that illegals pay more in taxes than they use in services. Anything that tells you otherwise is a lie.

5) The state's big answer was to set up a web site where people could look for temporary jobs. People have stopped listing jobs because no one was ever hired off the web site. It is difficult to find picking jobs. The illegal workers who had done it for years knew which farms hired when and had set up networks of places where they went from crop to crop and farm to farm. With this knowledge lost, the picking jobs are almost impossible to find, even if you wanted one. And there is the issue of transportation. The migrant farmers live in their trucks or in shanties or even in caves dug into roadbeds and lined with cardboard. Sanitary facilities are usually absent. All it would take was one person reporting it and the state would shut the farm down for good for violations of labor laws. Most of these jobs don't pay enough to even pay for the gasoline to get back and forth. That's why so many rural kids go into the military, even knowing that they will be repeatedly sent to Iraq or Afghanistan and might be killed or wounded. The pay is better and the job much safer and it offers a way out of rural life.

And I don't see any of the posters lining up for the jobs. Or maybe sending their teenage sons. Or wives. Just right-wing jingoism without an ounce of intelligence behind it.

“They'd want to be on break all the time, going to the bathroom, going to get a drink, or, you know, something. They just don't have the initiative to work, just plain and simple,” Danford says.

Yeah, God forbid the worker's actually want to use the bathroom or get a drink! LOL! That's a great quote.

It's simple, legal immigrants are welcome to work. If you're here legally and want to work then there shouldn't be a problem. But illegals are just that, illegal. And it's not about initiative, it's clear from Mr. Danforth's comment that he'd rather have illegal workers that are too frightened to speak up rather than documented or American workers who probably wouldn't like being treated like peasants.

These jobs, as well as others, are part time, temporary, and not meant to be for sustanance. Ten an hour is not bad at all for unskilled, temporary local labor; money to take your girlfriend out, gas in the car, what have you. And, I doubt any of these farmers are paying close to that to the illegals. Given the conditons, perhaps above minimum wage is warranted, but not much.

Work ethics learned, some cash in your pocket, and learning that education is imporatant unless you wish to continue this type of work throughout your life.

Local farms here in Ohio? Some still do it the old school way, employing part timers throughout their high school and college years, know their labor pool, work several different shifts throughout the day, some housewives do it to add to income..... works out fine. No illegals wanted or needed, prices don't go up. Good size farms, too.

Now, some of the mega corporo institutions? They do have trailers for illegals that come and go; they do work long hours, the corpor farms break the rules in more than just hiring illegals, they also work them mega hours per day. Not right or good for anyone. And, no... no American should endure those practices nor should mega corps. engage in them and decry they need illegals to do so.

@ canttakenomore, I don't know how I can get it across to you that I'm blaming neither Bush nor Obama. I'm pointing out that this immigration mess has been going on long before any of them planned on running for president and it won't get any better until the federal government cracks down on businesses and farmers that use them. No president or congress has done that.

As to the idiots that make the claim that Obama wants the Hispanic vote, they need only to come to Florida and see how many politicians of Hispanic descent are running under the Republican ticket.

But what if he paid a higher hourly wage? The going rate now is $10 an hour

I don't believe that B.S.

I have worked for farmers in five different states including Alabama, and they all have one thing in common. They will work you 15 hours a day for meager wages, how fast can you cram a sandwich down your throat at lunch time. No water cooler in sight.

I have even worker for some who have found loop holes in the law so they didn't have to pay over time. And yes I am a legal citizen.

And BTW --- in Tuscaloosa, both legal and illegal Hispanics have pulled their kids out of schools. Not because of the law, but because of the harassment by the kids and teachers of kids with Hispanic-sounding names. It is costing the Tuscaloosa school system millions of dollars in lost federal and state money and will probalbly result in 10-12 more teachers being laid off.

But for the idiots who say that Obama has stopped deporting illegal immigrants: You're full of crap. So far, the Obama administration has deported 18 times as many illegal immigrants as the entire 8 years of the Bush administration plus the 4 years of the GHW Bush administration. The only deportations that were stopped were those requested by the foreign governments themselves. They are people who have "deep roots" in this country. The biggest number are those currently serving in the military and those just being discharged. Apparently gay-baiting in the military has been replaced by "outing" Hispanics who outrank you or have a lower promotion number. There are also many illegals who came here as infants, don't speak Spanish or Indian, and would not be able to fit in in their natal country. Many have graduated college or otherwise have settled down as tax-paying citizens because they had no choice. All have no criminal record, including misdemeanors such as traffic tickets. This was done because deportation would have been cruel and the Pentagon was pitching a fit. And the people who are not deported because of the executive order are not given permanent residency or a path to citizenship. The only thing they get is a "green card" and are left as "stateless persons" in a sort of legal limbo.

It is much better for people to keep their mouths shut and let people think they are ignorant than to open it and remove all doubt. The right wing has chosen this as just another of their causes where their "facts" are made up and do not match reality.

You can collapse the truth, you can ignore the truth, but it is still the truth.

Larry...

Agreed. Sorry I was pressing so hard. I am just as irritated by the left who say Obama has done more than Bush...as I see it, there's been nothing done for 30+ years. I didn't agree with Reagan's solution, either. Amnesty is not the answer. Legal immigration and traceable guest worker programs are the only ways...

Sorry again...we seem to be on the same side on this one.

regards

@Thom Davis And Roy Wilson, neither of you provided anything that showed previous administrations that did a better job. I can only think of one (can't remember the president), Operation Wetback. Waiting for documented sources that show any of the 5 prior administrations that had a better track record on immigration. If you can't provide that, quit posting lies.

I would like you to show me who has done better in the last 5 administrations.

I should have clarified it to say "Welfare and social service costs"

The only state to do an exhaustive study of the cost of unauthorized immigration is Texas.

What they found is that unauthiorized immigrants add $17.7 Billion annually to the state GDP, resulting in lots of jobs for US citizens and lots of direct and indirect tax revenues.

As for the direct measurement of taxes paid minus the cost of services (social and otherwise) received, the unauthorized immigrants pay in a NET of over $420 Million per year in taxes paid minus the cost of services received.

The whole 'politically correct' crap of blaming all of our budget woes on immigrants is just plain not true. In short, it is a LIE.

sounds like some tea party style ethnic clensing down in alabama. how bout we load up those shiny new buses with those "patriots" and take those jobs they created.

"As to the idiots that make the claim that Obama wants the Hispanic vote, they need only to come to Florida and see how many politicians of Hispanic descent are running under the Republican ticket"

I guess the adjective describe you....You don't have any idea about how the Hispanic population is divided,the huge majority of illegals come from Mexico and Florida has no border with Mexico, latino immigrant in Florida come from, Cuba, Puerto Rico( American Citizens), Rep. Dominican and most countries from the Caribbean and South America,most Cuban descendants tend to be Republican because they scape from a communist as well others that come from Peru, Chile where socialist destroy their country. Obama wants the Hispanic vote no doubt and his biggest support come from immigrants mostly from border states which include a vast majority of Mexican and their descendants that support also their brothers illegal immigrants. Many of them are more extreme " Chicanos" have a position of re vindication and demand for Mexico the land they lost from war and an open border.

This is where ideology always falls apart. It's the same problem we'll have should Roe v. Wade be overturned. Once you pass extremist laws, that's when the red tape of enforcing such actions will only make the government - and government intrusion - even more large and prevalent. Republicans like to put together things in theory that, in practice, becomes virtually impossible to implement or sustain.

illegals are going to vote for Democrats

Just another lie by the xenopathic haters.

Never mind the putridness of a mindset that categorizes people, as opposed to actions, as being "illegal".

Unauthorized immigrants DO NOT VOTE. If you 'think' they do, here's a challenge for you:

Find ONE documentable incident of even a SINGLE unauthorized immigrant being convicted of casting a ballot in a national election anywhere in the United States. Voter fraud is a serious crime and carries very heavy penalties. If it happens so often that the President of the United States can be elected on the strength of the unauthorized immigrants voting, you ought to be able to document ONE case.

I'm not asking for proof of a million votes, or even a thousand votes, or even a hundred votes. I'm not even asking for proof of TEN votes, of FIVE, or even TWO.

Provide evidence of even ONE CASE, or admit that you have no actual knowledge of what you contend. I've made this challenge many times. No one has yet been able to meet it. Not even the people who complain that MILLIONS of votes are cast by unauthorized immigrants.

“Americans lose sight about how we get our pickles in a pickle jar in a grocery story. We forget that this is where it comes from,”

This statement from the farmer is pure BS and self serving. Just because he is greedy and did not abide by the law before does not make it right to continue hiring illegal aliens. He will have to get his pickles in the jar a different way!

By the way, one reader came up with the great idea to use the prisoners and jail house occupents for these fine jobs. This will build character and get their lazy criminal asses to work!!! Love that thought.

Have you ever stopped to think the legal immigrants wouldn't be looked at suspiciously anywhere near as much as they are if it wasn't for the

Bigots?

Have you ever stopped to think that the Ku Klux Klan never would have gotten started if we hadn't abolished slavery? Does that mean we should blame African Americans for the people dressing up in sheets?

wow, congratulations to some of the most uninformed posts of the year.

Commonsense said:

The Rand Corporation has studied this exact issue and found that:

1) unauthorized immigrants are the healthiest segment of American society and incur lower medical costs than authorized immigrants (the next healthiest) and much lower costs than the least healthy segment, US citizens.

2) Unauthorized immigrants are also the MOST likely segment of society to actually PAY for the medical services they receive. The LEAST likely segment: Deadbeat US citizens who don't bother to obtain medical insurance and then blame immigrants for the havoc that they themselves wreak on the medical system.

I'm not certain which Rand study you're talking about, but if it's this one:

The report – which appears in the November edition of the journal Health Affairs – estimates that in the United States about $1.1 billion in federal, state and local government funds are spent annually on health care for undocumented immigrants aged 18 to 64. That amounts to an average of $11 in taxes for each U.S. household.

In contrast, a total of $88 billion in government funds were spent on health care for all non-elderly adults in 2000.

Which one of us is really the liar here? We're spending tax dollars on the health care of illegals, something you claim in other posts is not true--so either the RAND study stands or it doesn't. To be clear, this very RAND study states:

Extrapolating to the nation, total spending by the undocumented is $6.4 billion, of which only 17 percent ($1.1 billion) is paid for by public sources.

Despite the conclusion that the study jumps to in order to make the matter sound better (ie "they must be healthier than the rest of us because they use less medical services") the fact that they visit the doctor less, does not mean they are healthier, it means their ills are less likely to be diagnosed and treated, and when they are diagnosed and treated they are more likely to require greater medical attention, including hospitalization.

A large number of foreign-born residents of Los Angeles County had almost no contact with the formal health care system, researchers found. One-quarter of the foreign-born had never had a medical check-up and one in nine had never visited a doctor – twice the rate seen among the native-born. Only 58 percent of undocumented immigrants had visited a doctor in the past year and only 11 percent had been hospitalized in the past two years.

Among undocumented men, just 2 percent had any hospitalizations in the prior year. Half had not seen a doctor in the prior year.

One of every five undocumented women had never received a checkup – four times the rate seen among native-born women – and 7 percent had never seen a physician, compared with 1 percent of native-born women.

“The lower use of medical services by immigrants is driven in part by their lower rates of insurance,” Goldman said.

It is important that you recognize 11% of a population being hospitalized within the past two years as a true indicator of their actual health. Two percent requiring hospitalization in the past year is a really big segment of the population, especially when you consider that they had excluded elderly and children and were considering only those aged 18-64.

As for them being the most likely segment to pay, that's absolutely ridiculous and actually goes directly against the above study, which states:

"The authors estimate that total medical costs for all Los Angeles County residents ages 18 to 64 was $13.9 billion in 2000, with private insurers paying a bit more than half the costs and public insurers a little more than one-fourth the costs. The remainder was paid for out of pocket."

This study says nothing about uncompensated care. In fact most studies say nothing about uncompensated care, especially that specific to illegal immigrants, because little data is collected on the matter. This study made no claim to who is more likely to pay for the uninsured beyond this: 36% of medical payments for illegal immigrants are out of pocket, compared to 27% for other immigrants and 20% for native born citizens. But in another RAND study:

Researchers found that 68 percent of the undocumented immigrant adults they studied had no health insurance. This compared with 17 percent of the native-born Americans, 23 percent of immigrants who had become citizens, and 38 percent of immigrants who are permanent legal residents. As a group, four in 10 of those born outside the United States lacked health insurance.

In the first study they were asked how they paid for their medical expenses, not if they ever failed to pay them. In the second, which showed a much higher rate of non-insured than those out-of-pocket-payers, they also were not asked whether or not their medical expenses were paid for in the first place.

I doubt very seriously we could get liars and thieves to answer the questions honestly in order to know for certain which segment of the population produces more uncompensated medical billing. But, I ask you, which segment of society is more likely to report their real social security number, name, and address when obtaining medical care? If they are reporting their real numbers, they can be and are pursued until they file bankruptcy. So perhaps we should do a study on uncompensated medical expenses that continue to be uncompensated because they are untraceable to a viable entity versus those that are only uncompensated until such time as bankruptcy is declared. Perhaps while we are at it we should also look at the rate of claim of identity theft, where someone reported that their medical identity was used by someone else who racked up significant bills (this might be compensated or it might not--depends on if the person had insurance or not).

Either way, I'm going to have to call BS on your post. Sorry, dude.

The farmer DID NOT say that he pays $10 per hour. He only said that minimum wage is 10 dollars per hour Now.... which it isn't in his State.

Frankly I doubt that these farmers are paying field hands 10 dollars per hour in Alabama, anywhere down south or anywhere in the USA for that matter. They can get away with paying bare minimum wage because the people they hire are seasonal, and even if they have permanent staff keep the count under 10 persons so the higher minimum wage does not affect them.

Didn't another article on this very issue of rotting veggies in fields talk about pay per basket or whatever they collect the veggies in and it was not 10 dollars per hour? I think it was Mississippi or somewhere there.

Isn't the minimum wage depends on the State and can be anywhere from 2.25 per hour to 7.50 per hour depending on the amount of workers, type of jobs/seasonal or non seasonal /part time or full time/ provide health insurance coverage/ company gross revenue?

If this farmer was indeed paying 10 dollars per hour wouldn't more people stick it out because after all it is much higher than they could get working as wait staff in restaurants, washing dishes, cars washes, clerks at places like Walmart/stores etc and even in some form of construction?

How about the many areas where there is need for skilled labour and these companies are not even paying 10 dollars per hour as they pay the state sanctioned minimum wage?

Averaging out the minimum wage throughout the USA it is anywhere from 2.25 per hour to the highest 7.75-8 per hour (in some high cost of living states).

Still think that that farmer is offering 10 dollars per hour?

Considering that the dishwasher guy isn't earning anywhere near even 7.75 per hour, as restaurant wait staff earn about 2.75 /hour plus tips, wouldn't he have toughed it out for 7.75-10 dollars per hour as it is a lot more money than many other fields of labour....?

The bottom line is....there are US Visa's that address immigrant farm workers...immigrant farm workers are not using the proper avenue to work in this country legally....

Commonsense, I tend to agree with majority of your perception. However, I completely disagree with the possibility that KKK never would have gotten started if we hadn't abolish slavery... KKK did not simply go after the blacks, they were after every non-white. And in several cases, they were after particular religious affiliations as well... KKK was particularly interested in the Jews, for whatever the reason...

They are simply a hateful group of people.

I love the liberal train of thought here. Anyone who wishes to enforce immigration law is a racist bigot, but Obama is a hero for supposedly enforcing it better than any other president (Hint: When more people than ever are pouring over the border, you're going to be kicking out more than ever).

This guy is treating illegal immigrants as slaves. He complains that normal people would want bathroom breaks and water in HOT climates. Yes. How dare they!

This man wants slaves, and the liberals are all too happy to give them to them, and anyone who would dare try to screw with the nanny state is an enemy. We can't be creating jobs, well over minimum wage mind you, for menial labor (no one needs experience to pick a vegetable, no matter how many liberals insist it requires a two week course or a bachelor's degree.....people who can't speak English were apparently doing it just fine). People will stop taking the gubmint checks, and if that happens, Obama can't run on "Those mean old Republicans are gonna make you get a job and fend for yourselves!".

Give me a break. If the Federal Government refuses to uphold the law, then it is the state's right to do so. Here's proof that Mr. Obama is telling ICE to pick and choose which ILLEGAL immigrants it deports. I'm sure that's not frustrating to law enforcement at all that they find an illegal, and they are back on the streets soon after. He wants to pass reform to make illegals legal...aka amnesty. They already cost us $338 billion a year. Think of how much they'll cost us when they can start REALLY using the welfare kitty.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/13/us/politics/president-obamas-policy-on-deportation-is-unevenly-applied.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

Bottom line....you want to come here to make a better life for yourself? Don't have your first act be breaking the law, go home, and wait in line like several thousand Mexicans do every year.

And by the way, Commonsense,

62.1% of all bankruptcies in 2007 were medical; 92% of these
medical debtors had medical debts over $5000, or 10% of pretax family income. The rest met criteria for medical bankruptcy because they had lost significant income due to illness or mortgaged a home to pay medical
bills. Most medical debtors were well educated, owned homes, and had middle-class occupations. Three quarters had health insurance.

From the American Journal of Medicine.

Does this make them deadbeats or does it make them honest and in a situation they cannot escape? First these families are stricken with illness, then they are hit with bills that no one can afford--even those with insurance. Of course this doesn't cover everyone, and by no stretch of the imagination am I trying to claim that the problem lies solely on the shoulders of illegals--there are plenty of American citizens who are criminal. However there is a problem when I as a citizen, wishing to act legally, am forced to file bankruptcy, taking accountability for the medical bills even though I cannot pay them, owning them and being known for years as an unreliable debtor, and the illegal immigrant who has no legal entity to hold accountable for the debt in the first place can just change identities. If they skip, and some no doubt do, then it is no big deal because they are not acting legally in the first place, and why should they worry when no one requires them to do so? Further to this, I'm going to be forced to purchase insurance I cannot afford, insurance that will not cover the cost of all medical debt (as evidence the "Deadbeats" you cite), but the illegals will still not be forced to abide by the law.

Like I said before, maybe it's time we all start using each other's social security numbers and making up identities. Government will be forced to fix the actual problems when no one is abiding by the rules.

Gelly,

Illegals pay into SS, but not much in income taxes. Since they use illegal documents they can claim a lot of exemptions which means no income tax withheld. They do pay sales tax for things they purchase, but for what I have seen, they live fairly cheaply. So I don't think they are contributing as much as legal citizens. They do help our SS some but then the gov't steals it.

The farmer from the article sounds like a person with some serious buyer's remorse...voting party lines without thinking how it'd effect his business. now it's effecting his pocket book & he's upset.

at any rate, get on board with the fact that migrant undocumented/illegal labor "bakes in" the price of the crop & eventual product at the store.

however, the long-term effects of kicking out the cheap labor weren't considered--there was plenty of that "let's make the current admin look like crap" thinking going on.

i'd suggest some reading, but most won't...so, the documentary, "fast food nation" touches on this cheap labor, cheap fast-food, cheap groceries network & it's entertaining too! youtube it...rent it...but get something to stop the misinformation.

LOL... God I LOVE poetic justice.

So first, this farmer votes Republican.

Then these Republicans f--- him over and ruin his business, with laws that HE voted for.

Now the state is LOSING even MORE money through lost taxes, lost legal jobs (transporting crops, sellers, etc.)... so the state has to cut MORE programs.

Now programs that benefit HIM are on the chopping block.

LOLOLOLOLOLOL... God I love this. This Republican is getting EXACTLY what he deserves.

See, this is the problem with Republicans... they can not see the big picture. They think illegal immigration is bad, but don't realize that it supported their business. Now those truck drivers that transported the food have less business, the retailers have less product, and the consumer spends MORE money for food.

I remember a fundamental, philosophical problem... from my economics class, back in the day:

"Americans who don't like illegal aliens DO like their food cheap. You can not have one without the other. So they need to decide what is more important, immigration policy or their personal money?"

The farmer in this article sounds a little fishy -

“The [pickle] company wouldn’t buy it from you then,” he says. They’d turn to suppliers in other states where labor is cheaper -- states that allow undocumented immigrants to continue working under the radar.

The [pickle] company does not care what the farmer pays their workers. The company contracts for the crop. The company contracts for delivery of produce at a set price - how much the farmer spends to produce it is the farmer's business.

When Danford planted watermelons last year, he estimates he paid a trucking company close to $10 million to transport them.

Even if he paid $5,000 a truck to ship the melons - that means he produced 40,000 TONS of melons. That would be 80 million pounds of melons. The shipping price for watermelon is about $0.14 per pound. That means this farmer produced $11 million in watermelons alone. Sounds a little far fetched.

I am not sure this farmer isn't stretching a little for sympathy. Either way, he is not a small operator.

Most farmers don't pay by the hour, but by the number of baskets picked. The "illegal" problem is the fault of everyone, from the corperations that want the cheap labor, to the home owner that hires the "illegal" lawn care. Or the states and cities that have declared themselfs as "santuaries".

It looks like the farmers, need to rethink on how they harvest their crops, or they need to plant a different crop. And when is the last time Farmer Danford got off his fat a$$ and helped harvest the cucumber crop? or does he just sit in his truck and let everyone else do the dirty work??

Work Visas, Health screening, and age screening. Children should not be able to get work visas. Why is it so hard to get them? It's not, just go to our embassy or yours and file, so you have them before you come. It's that simple!

With so many people in US prisons (1 million or so) we can't send them out to pick vegetables and fruit?? Let's put them to work for our benefit for a change.

Two weeks ago, news broke that Homeland Security had ordered the Border Patrol to stop random inspections at transportation hubs along our nation’s borders. (See FAIR Legislative Update, Oct. 31, 2011)

The Obama Administration is doing it's best to saturate this country with illegal aliens.

I, one of your "saggy drawer, materialistic, self-centered, I-Pad obsessed youth", would be thrilled to take a job picking crops that paid at minimum wage, or by the bushell. Not all teenagers in america are white suburban stereotypes, and in the country where there arent many jobs for teenagers (or anyone for that matter) picking crops would be a good seasonal way to earn money. Besides that, farmers are relying more on technology these days to harvest their crops, and less on field hands. Any experienced migrant worker will tell you that it's getting harder and harder as time goes on to get work in the fields.

Commonsense

You just love these forums where you can try to spread the same old BS over and over.

1. The Rand Study was extremely flawed from the start. If you have any ability to read whatsoever you will note that these 3 rocket scientists, that did the survey and report for RAND, basically asked the individuals if they caused any unpaid Bills.

There are no numbers from the hospitals given nor is there any numbers given from Medi-Cal and the reason for that is because the advocates for the illegals would whine and moan and claim that racism was the motivating factor for anyone trying to collect any data of costs caused by illegals.

One need look no further than the amount of hospitals/trauma centers that have closed in California in the last 15 years to see that the bills are going unpaid. By 2004 over 84 hospitals and or trauma centers were closed in California leaving less than 1.8 beds per 1000 people living in that state.

2. You love that Texas Comptroller report from 2004?? but you always fail to report what the Comptroller really found. She said that illegals cost versus what they paid in to the state government was pretty much even but she left out the fact that Texas has no state income tax and that would have made the disparity much higher.

She also flat out admitted that since her report was on the cost to the State of Texas Government that she would not include the over $1 billion plus a year that illegals costed local governments within the state. She also chose not to count the costs of babies being born to illegals or the costs of educating those children.

She said that illegals, which make up about 5% of Texas population, produced approx $17.7 billion towards the state of Texas GDP. What she failed to mention along with that statement is that any 5% of the legal population produced approx $65 billion of the states' GDP. In other words the illegals were approx a $50 billion drag on the Texas economy for the year the report was done.

As for your statement about how illegals can't get entitlements. Either you have your head so far up, that you won't ever be able to get it out, or you just think a lie won't be called when you post. One need look no further than the President's own aunt to see that illegals can and do get entitlements.

Illegals can and do get entitlements on behalf of their kids that are born here. They have control over how the entitlements are used.

Illegals do get tax returns. Last year the IRS admitted to paying out over $3 billion dollars to illegals in child credits. Look it up.

Chris 7 whatever

"18 times more illegals deported under Obama than the whole 8 years of Bush II and the whole 4 years of Bush I."

Do yourself a favor; reach way down and pull your head out and then follow the last statement on your last post above because that is a pretty ignorant statement that you like to use.

Im not a math whiz but the number of illegals that have been deported, since Obama became President, is approx 1.2 million or about 400,000 per year. That would mean that only approx. 66,667 illegals were deported in the 12 years in question. Really????? Im pretty sure that your statement is way over to the 'full of crap side'.

As for soldiers being the majority of the 300,000 deportations being put on hold, again BS. First of all an illegal can not legally join the Armed Forces. No recruiter is knowingly trying to get illegals to join because they know they will be court- martialed if they do.

You also said "All have no criminal record, including misdemeanors such as traffic tickets". What can I say, again the full of crap meter has pegged all the way over. All these people have come into contact with law enforcement for one reason or another and from all over the country. They had to do something wrong in the first place to have been found out.

Again pull your head out, do some research and then come back when you actually have at least half a truth to post.

The bottom line is advocates for illegals will always condemn any law that actually works to make the illegals move.

E-verify work. In Arizona over 90,000 illegals left the state after e-verify was made mandatory. This was well before SB1070 went into effect. It is already working in Alabama even though it hasn't gone into effect yet.

Illegals do not create wealth! If they were good for any economy then why aren't their home countries trying to keep them there?

Illegals are not good for the economy! If illegals were good for the economy then why are states that welcome illegals also the ones having the most financial difficulties. (California, Illinois, New York, etc.)

If a farmer is too lazy to fill out the request for H2-B workers then he or she should not be in business anyway.

Some open questions for all the Chris 7s, nocommonsenses, tesses, and to all those that advocate for the illegals to stay here........

1.Why would you advocate for something to be given to an illegal that you would not advocate for a legal resident?

2. Why do you advocate for the outsourcing of jobs?

3. Why do you advocate for the tax payers to subsidize every business that hires illegals?

4. Do you think our economy can possibly sustain an endless amount of illegals coming here without the U.S. turning into a country like the ones the illegals left behind?

5. Do you really think produce prices are going to go up to an astronomical level? ($8 head of lettuce, $10 lb of tomatos, etc.)

6. Do you really think legal residents will not take most of the jobs that illegals currently have/had?

Please supply us with your never ending supply of ......... well, a somewhat intelligent answer will suffice.

If they were good for any economy then why aren't their home countries trying to keep them there?

They tore down the Berlin wall years ago. Not many people are as fond of that totalitarian big brother government model that you seem to be so infatuated with.

Does anyone actually keep statistics on governments crying over individual people who left?

@Michael Lockwood #1.160 and #1.161 -

You say the Rand Study is deeply flawed I see many flaws in your post but let just look at one and I make my point. You say no numbers given by Medi-Cal. I have assisted a person to attempt to get on Medi-Cal and they need to supply a Social Security number that would be checked by the state and a work history and in about a month or longer, after losing the original paper work, an Medi-Cal card or benefit was awarded. A grand whopping total of $800 total per year. Now you ask yourself why all those medical centers were closed and it is profit that drives the provision of medical care and not a moral imperative to provide medical care for those with little to no means to pay the exorbitant cost of medical care here in California and throughout the country. That is why the California as other states have closed hospitals and these "medical clinics" (for profit) have sprung up all over California. Low overhead, minimal treatment and the same high cost, honest to goodness profit centers not a public service.

As for my point of illegals you need to get a handle on the ramifications of what you imply which to me is to go on some "witch hunt", spend tens of millions if not hundreds of millions with personal we do not have and get these illegals. Now, even if this herculean task were even possible to apply, just imagine if they all asked for a jury trial? I mean we do not have the means to process this amount of people. But, my point is just whom is it that will replace the millions of migrant farm workers? You seem to leave this out or maybe I missed it?

I have read Arizona lost, all numbers considered close to $100.000,000 (on hundred million) and quickly put out the word the laws would not be enforced. We do not hear even a squeak from Jan Brewer and the rest as the products were mostly left to rot in the hot Arizona sun and now they are welcome back. I only point to Arizona as a case study that should be studied on what actually will happen when these anti-migrant farm worker laws are really enacted.

They should have studied Arizona and even if the governor says nothing has changed that is a lie. Nothing has changed as to the rhetoric but the enforcement is a relic of the past. The same pattern of Americans unwilling to work these field jobs as magic repeats itself again and again whenever the field workers are run off the crops are left to rot and Americans do not seek this kind of work.

I suppose my point to you, besides your flawed cost benefit analysis, is just whom do you expect to harvest these fields? Don't say Americans will that has been a fallacy, to be a false assumption many times over.

How will the fields be worked? We practice benign neglect in California and our agriculture products benefit from the loss of these other states and yes I am all for the get tough approach just not here in California - thank you.

With a real child care, pre-school program I see no reason why an able bodied person on welfare or Medi-Cal should not be put to some work, if a single mother a few hours a week. A real program has to be put in place and I think the powers that be think it less bothersome to just drift along as we have been and we are surely not going to repeat the fiasco of Arizona. My contact in Arizona, a used to be Republican now a "stay at home Republican" now sees the downfall and is all for welcoming back the migrant workers, it seems he has a change of heart, reality can sting sometimes and be careful for what you wish for, you may get it.

Finally, I should add the fact that California (a Creditor state) paid into Washington $313 BILLION Dollars in 2008 and this debtor state probably around 10 Billion only a guess based on other states of similar size and an economic base of agriculture.

Meaning the Debtor state gets back much more in government revenues than they pay in. Sad but True.

This is just precious, I think that it is outstanding that they have shot themselves in the foot/ cut their nose off to spite their own face!!!

If they really were that ignorant that they seriously couldn't see this as a direct result of their actions then the residents need to wake the hell up smell the coffee and get some elected officials in office who have their head outa their azz!!!

@Michael Lockwood - Post #1.163 - Nonsensical Questions

The article answers your question -

6. Do you really think legal residents will not take most of the jobs that illegals currently have/had?

Please supply us with your nevending supply of ......... well, a somewhat intelligent answer will er suffice.

I refer you to the article and the number of applicants for the job offer to work the fields and the statement of the farmer that it takes three American workers to do the work of two migrant workers. BTW the vast majority of these migrant workers I have read do in fact have "work permits" and return to Mexico when the seasons are over you are more concerned with those that stay past time allotted and find work in the local fast food joint as Del Taco and McDonald's and so forth.

Again, some American youngsters work these jobs and sooner than possible move up and out of the greasy low paying no real health care job of being a junk food employee. You may like to eat in these places I do not and my children did work during their high school years and decided college and a degree if ever in doubt was no longer an option but a necessity. They described the non-stop motion and when not busy they had to clean and wash down the outside and unload trucks of food for the business. The grease was everywhere they said and I won't mention which was the most greasy but I rarely eat in these, well, I don't eat in I drive through and order a small item just to have something in my stomach to balance my blood sugar and metabolism otherwise I stay clear.

So there I hope #6 is answered your major fallacy among others is that Americans are or will locate to say Brawley (a "farm city)" in the heart of the Imperial Valley and live in barracks, buy necessities from the on site markets, owned by the farmer called in old days "the company store".

Your #5 - even a high school student is taught the economic principle of supply and demand on a graph and the relation to the increase of the commodity in this case food, and yes this applies to lettuce too. I remember we had a crop of tomatoes here in California years ago and the price was over $4 a pound and that is possibly a decade ago when prices were lower than they are today so $4 per LB. was unheard of. I could answer the rest but are as vacuos as these #6 and #5. Reality trumps up make believe scenarios that have already proof positive answers as - "do you really think Americans will not take these jobs"? - You must be kidding or just out of your mind to make statements as these.

If so move to the beautiful area of the Imperial Valley or go north to farm areas there, you do know there is no health insurance provided? Yeah Americans will just flock to these rural areas even though the fact is already established that will not that does not stop someone as yourself to assert a totally false proposition. Just more miss-information and a puny attempt to make @!$%# into shinola and sell it to the public. Nice try though..............

Michael Lockwood, you toss the word "entitlement" around as if it is a bad word. Well, it is not a bad word. it is simply a word that stands for if you pay for a product or service, then you are entitle to it.

Health Insurance is a an entitle program, because if I pay a premium, then I am entitled to the service. If I am an American who has contributed into the Social Securities program for a certain number of years, then I am entitled to receive the benefits that program. If I am an American, then I have inalienable rights.... IT IS AN ENTITLEMENT. So you need to clear up the ole attic and stop shoveling the same of manure, because it sounds good.

Texas like Nevada chose to not have State Income Tax. And if you have problem with that then you need to go see your local Rep. Undocumented pay into State coffer... You have a problem with Illegal paying little into state GDP, then you can pay them more so that they can spend more. It is simple economics.... That is why min wage system works, and that is why businesses are againsted it. The outlay is not worth their risk... What if the extra wage will allow their employees get the idea of starting competing biz or leave????

Name a state that has suffered economically directly due to an increase in min wage.... CA has one of the largest workforce and the the largest tax, yet CA remains one the largest economy in the world... Yes we subsidize your a$$.

My first initial thought this was a perfect example of an American voting against his (or her) own best interests, but I gave it a second thought.

Yes, this guy voted Republican, and now the party he voted for is screwing him over. But then, when you think about it, the Republican party has done nothing about immigration because it has basically been another corporate welfare program. This guy voted for a party that has done nothing in the past to solve the immigration problem.

I have worked in the "field service" industry for most of my life, and have worked at more factories than most Americans. They are full of illegals, from all over the world (not just Mexico, Central and South America). These companies know exactly who they are hiring, many using (and paying) an outside contractor who buses them in for the company, some companies also house them seasonally or year round.

Where I don't agree with many on this thread who blame a particular party, this is not a Republican or Democratic problem, but both are guilty, maybe for different reasons. The Republicans have always wanted to help out their corporate buddies (Corporate Welfare), while the Democrats have always wanted to save the world (More Welfare).

Personally, I see no reason why we don't (and haven't for generations) enforced these laws. With that being said, it's actually hard to blame the immigrants. How many decades (Both Parties) have the laws been ignored? Where was the incentive to abide by the law? We let this happen, we need to look in the mirror and realize it's been our own fault.

This is not an easy topic to solve, but I believe any step towards a solution is a good thing. I have always been one to say, "hey, you broke the law when you illegally crossed the border". But to put it in layman terms, if you continually stick your hand in the cookie jar, and never get it smacked (and have not for generations), how can you blame the cookie thief?

Stop the partisan crap, seek solutions, push for what's right to do. Not what the TV tells you to do, (either channel), stop being brainwashed by MSNBC or FOX.

Chris: As a previous employer for independent contractors, I assure you they were responsible for paying their own taxes. Nice try though, at convincing us that illegal farm workers are a bunch of misaligned tax-payers.

"..independent contractors are responsible for reporting and paying their own Social Security and income taxes."

http ://www.irs. gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=177092,00. html (please remove spaces)

Michael Lockwood "Illegals are not good for the economy! If illegals were good for the economy then why are states that welcome illegals also the ones having the most financial difficulties. (California, Illinois, New York, etc.)"

Bingo.

California has about 12% of the people in the Country, but about 35% of the welfare cases. People who say that 'illegals don't qualify for welfare' just don't have a clue how things work. As soon as a family of illegals have an 'Anchor Baby', they qualify for all kinds of public assistance. A recent report by a major newspaper indicated that an estimated $576 million was paid to illegal immigrant families who had an 'Anchor Baby' in Los Angeles County alone - $312 in food stamps and $264 million in direct welfare checks to their families. While it's supposedly for the 'baby', the welfare benefits go to the parents.

Unfortunately, the California Legislature is now dominated by Hispanics, so it will only get worse. Los Angeles is totally controlled by Hispanics, so they will have budget problems for the foreseeable future. Los Angeles now has the second largest population of Hispanics in the World - behind Mexico City.

As for illegal immigrants actually voting, it's difficult to determine if this is a significant problem, but it's made easy by California's 'Motor Voter' rules that allow a person getting a driver's license to register to vote at the same time. But the long-term goal of Democrats is to gain the votes of the 'Anchor Babies' who will vote when they are old enough. Most illegal parents have no intention of going through the process of becoming American citizens - they just want to stay here and work until their kids grow up and take care of them.

So all of you that keep advocating they let the illegals stay, you are also advocating the treatment of said employees like this man treats them. He complains of having to give bathroom breaks and water for God's sakes.

More proof of the "tolerant left" advocating slavery.

I work in a busy ER at a county hospital in Texas. We do get a large % of illegals that go through there

Same questions:

Of all the people going through the ER at the county hospital where you work, HOW MANY BIRTH CERTIFICATES DO YOU ACTUALLY CHECK?

Etc., etc. Making things up is NOT the same as knowing the facts.

commonsense....

Anyone can buy a fraudulent birth certificate so your argument is useless....

Hospitals in Texas can pretty much go by the returned to sender bills because the billing addresses offered by illegals are often bogus or belong to other people. If they give their accurate address then they might risk having to pay a bill if they had to go back to that hospital. And they will go back to the hospital because it is their source for free care.

The answer is Romney care on a national basis a single payer system

California pays more as reported 2008 $313,000,000,000 (313 Billion) than any state though we have a deficit of 20 Billion and have measures in place to reduce this amount. We should stop being a nanny state to many of these whiners commenting here and make them pay their own way for once. We could hold back 20 Billion for a few years and let these "poor states" learn how to make ends meet for once.

Take care of your own problems first and go pick, work the fields and have your children out there too. I read there are more people as in "white" (whatever that means) than any "identity" collecting welfare (total numbers) or on some sort of public assistance and do nothing for the economy as say harvest our national farm products.

Hold back 20 Billion California get smart let these leaches (like Kentucky and Tennessee, ole Miss, Arizona and the list goes on) find a way to make it. As for those that don't like it here you can leave California anytime we won't miss you. Get the hell out.

Michael Lockwood said:

All these people have come into contact with law enforcement for one reason or another and from all over the country. They had to do something wrong in the first place to have been found out.

Eighteen years after I ws adopted ICE lost my adoption paper and decides that years of 'legal' vanishes with one paper and they detain me for deportation. I never did anything wrong. I have no criminal record, no arrest record, not even so much as a parking ticket or points on my driving record. I have a squeaky clean background check.

commonsense said:

Of all the people going through the ER at the county hospital where you work, HOW MANY BIRTH CERTIFICATES DO YOU ACTUALLY CHECK?

Thank you. That's the problem with the AL law that everyone seems to miss.

The law AL and AZ passed DOES NOT SPECIFY what is considered an acceptable way to prove you are here legally--your DL, BC, and SS card are not proof of citizenship. And therein lies the Federal government's problem with this law--there's not enough definition and not enough protection for those who are here LEGALLY. It tramples on the rights of those the Federal goverment has legally deemed have a right to be here, legal citizens, naturalized citizens, and legal immgrants.

In every other state except the ones who have passed this law our DL, SS, and Birth Certificate suffices and the Naturalization Certificate by federal mandate only has to be presented if an ICE official asks for it. This law confers that right to EVERY law enforcement officer--and there are lot of LEO imposters going around too! Suppose a criminal were to put on a bogus uniform and ask a legal immigrant or naturalized citizen for their papers--he can drive off with it and that legal immigrant would now be able to be picked up by a real LEO for not having that paper!

Our Certificate of Naturalization is a piece of 8 /2 x 11 sheet of green paper with a photo stapled to it and the Oath of Allegiance printed on it and if this paper is lost, stolen or damaged it costs $600 for another copy and a three-year wait. If your DL or SS card cost $600 to replace you would not be carrying it around either--in fact, the SS admnistration already recomends that the averge citizen NOT carry their card with them bcause it is too easily lost damged or stolen.

What you can't debate is this...

All workers are assigned ITIN numbers by SS Administration, and have deductions made from their checks. Those go into earning suspense accounts, and are paid out to citizens. I dare someone to find anything that challenges this. It's not a study, or statistic, it's fact.

1996 Welfare Reform disqualified illegal aliens from all means tested government assistance, i.e. food stamps, Medicaid, cash assitance. The director of Health and Human Services just testified in front of Congress and stated that children of undocumented workers may receive assistance, however HHS found that in those households ONLY the children were getting benefits.

I mean, do you really enjoy starving children???

8 million out of the estimated 11 million people here without Visa's file personal income tax. If paying taxes is such an issue, why aren't you all so adament about cracking down on "legal" citizens that cheat on theirs???

Deporting a single person costs $12,500.

Gary Johnson, former Govenor of New Mexico said it beautifully, we should make obtaining a work visa as simple as it can possibly be. Why not??? If you're thinking of crime and drugs, well that's not what's at issue in this article. That's a problem that won't be solved through immigration reform, or crazy unconstitutional laws. Otherwise, you're looking at a cheap, taxable, hard working, labor source.

commonsense

"They tore down the Berlin Wall years ago" Who cares it has nothing to do with ensuring that the laws of this nation are obeyed. If the immigration laws were not in effect and there was no ICE then what would happen?

No borders, total chaos, and the U.S. would be no better than all the 4th world countries these people left in the first place. Like I said go back and continue to try to get that head out of its current position.

Preserve

I guess you did your best in trying to give an answer to at least a couple of questions but overall your answers are lacking and actually show your ignorance if not bias towards the illegals. Your calling them non-sensical questions leads me to believe that you have no clue how to answer, them because you do not know enough about the subject.

In one of your posts above you mentioned the millions of migrant farm workers. Just how many do you think there are. The Department of Labor put the total number of farm workers at around 800,000 back in 2008 with an estimated decrease of 1800 workers per year up to 2018.

I get it. You are one of those that actually think that all illegals only work in the fields right?

You also stated that illegals can not get Medi-CAL. You stated that you know about the process because you helped someone fill out their application or something to that effect. Are you really that ignorant or just trying to pass on a lie hoping everyone would believe it?

I went to the California Department of Health Care Services (MEDI-CAL's) website and did a little reading and it didn't take me long to find a letter that established a small part of eligibility for the program. This letter was sent out to all of the MEDI-CAL document processing people. In the letter the Director wrote " Person B entered the U.S. with the intention of remaining as an unlawful immigrant. Person B sets up his/her primary residence and obtains employment in California. Person B is a resident of California and is entitled to receive restricted Medi-CAL benefits limited to emergency and prenancy-related services".

You want to say what I posted is flawed but you come back with somthing that pegs out the FULL OF CRAP METER. Again you only proved how ignorant you are by saying no illegals get the benefits. I will say that it just isn't California and is actually widespread.

You went on about how legal residents don't work the fields or do menial jobs, long term. Who would???? Once a person can they will try to move up to a better or higher paying job. Just as your kids went to college to get better jobs, others will do the same.

However not all legal residents can or will go to college! Many don't have a high school education and those "menial" jobs are all they will quailfy for. Right now they have an unemployment rate around 18% and need/want these jobs that illegals have moved into.

Pull your head out and do a little research before you open mouth and insert foot.

Look at Construction, manufacturing, food service, natural gas industry, etc. The list goes on and on. The problem is people like you who either believe that all illegals are here only to pick produce, or just lie about it.

commonsense is ... blah blah blah ... or he is hispanic

Wow. Is that supposed to hurt my feelings? Is that supposed to be some kind of insult?

I feel sorry for you, but I feel even sorrier for the people who are the victims of such blatant bigotry.

If you go back far enough, we are ALL related. Even you and the hispanics.

I see Michael Lockwood is still tying to make the world a safe place for the uber race. Those brown people are soooo scary! Oh my!

If the immigration laws (did not include idiotic hidden quotas based on bigotry and ridiculous attempts at social engineering) then what would happen?

... total chaos, and the U.S. would be no better than all the 4th world countries these people left

You believe that because you believe in social engineering as the only way to make America safe for the 'ubermensch'. Since 1986, the number of immigrants staying here is roughly equal to the number of immigrants obtaining jobs.

You like rules like the upper limit of 5,000 unskilled laborers per year, because it fits in with your snobbish views that anyone without a college degree has inferior genes, even if they come from a country where almost no one has a college degree.

Never mind the fact that American businesses have been hiring, training, and gainfully employing closer to 500,000 low-skilled laborers per year. YOU still think some idiot bigot politician in 1986 knew what the needs of the American economy would be 25 years down the road.

Even the Soviet Politburo revised there centrally planned economic goals every five years. You can't even do that, and you think your methods are better than the free market?

It would be funny, if it wasn't so dangerous.

Nobody wants an end to 'law'. We just want sensible and just laws. Laws that serve the best interests of ALL Americans, not just the ZPG bigots.

txmom, do you just make that stuff up, or does someone else tell it to you.

And if someone else is telling it to you, why do you believe it without any evidence to back it up.

You're an intelligent person, try researching these issues. There are real studies out there, written by qualified experts. Try reading some.

There is nothing wrong with immigration. Both Democrats AND Republicans believe in immigration - but the difference is Republicans want LEGAL immigration.

Actually, that's not true.

All the Republicans have to do is make immigration LEGAL, and the whole problem of unauthorized immigration will end OVERNIGHT.

By refusing to look at passing sensible immigration rules, it is precisely the Republican Party that is guilty of perpuating unauthorized immigration.

The silly myth is that if we ALLOW people to come here legally, TOO MANY will come. The truth is that the economic market place determines how many come. The politicians decide how many of those will be unauthorized.

KKK did not simply go after the blacks, they were after every non-white. And in several cases, they were after particular religious affiliations as well...

And immigrants. They hated immigrants, too.

commonsense

You must really need illegals in your life. Otherwise why would you be spreading so much BS and trying to pass on so many lies as facts. It just shows how ignorant you are of the facts and how silly your arguments sound.

I never lie, Michael. I can back up everything I say, as you well know. I've left you sputtering more than once.

commonsense

BAHAHAHAHAHA

You????? BAHAHAHAHAHA

The only think that has left me sputtering is your total ignorance of the facts. All you do is lie and spread your BS! You tried to show only the positives in every report that you cite when all the negatives easily override them.

You wouldn't believe a fact if it hit you in your grill. The truth is you need the illegals and preferablly hispanic illegals. In fact your past posts show that you are the racist in the bunch and would surely be crying, pissing, and moaning if it were millions of white illegals coming here.

You can tuck and run and keep spreading your BS with no facts to back them up but you can't answer one question that I have ever posed to you.

Pretty pitiful for one that seems to think he has any commonsense at all!

@Commonsense, you are wasting your time with Michael he has never backed up one thing he has ever posted with evidence from an unbiased source.

You are all wrong:

commonsense.... is a member of the cartels that profits from human and drug trafficking, that's why he is against any regulation concerning illegals and has a "let them all in, no questions asked" approach. And based on his comments, he must be getting high off the supply.

TAML

Right I have shu you down on every occasion that I bothered with reading your posts. You and commonsense actually have no....... commonsense. Totally ignorant to most of the facts and only going off your one or two incidents with what you have seen or dealt with.

Guess what no one cares; the fact is the majority of legal residents do not want the illegals here.

Both of you should get together and try to pull each others head out of the total ignorance both of you live in.

Every source I have used has been as unbiased as could be and in fact I tried to show commonsense in the report that he loves to qoute where he is wrong. Both of you sit back on the couch with your heads so far up that you will never get them out.

TamL, Commonsense, Chris, etc.

Brian Williams, the author of this story has you all fooled. Go back and read the article then do a little research instead of sounding so ignorant. You will find that the poor, broke, unable to pay living wages, farmer in this story is the second highest receiver of government farm subsidies in the state of Alabama. He is second only to his brother. He received over $1.3 million dollars or approx. $87,000 per year for the last 15 years.

Not bad on top of all the profit he has made off the crops he took to market. You fall in line and believe only one thing and that is that illegals should be getting a break and we should all be happy they are here.

We subsidize this farmer, we subsidize his workers, and on top of that we pay taxes on the produce once it gets to market. If you count all the money that is being paid out for the illegals to be here and add in the direct payments from taxes to the farmer, then the prioce of goods is well above what we would have to pay if the farmer doubled his wages to the pickers.

You all need to get togehter and do a pull your heads out party, do a little research, and quit sounding so ignorant.

It is undeniably the bigots who, like Lamar Smith and J. T. Ready, oppose immigration reform that are working hand in hand with the drug cartels.

Wasting billions upon billions of dollars on building ineffective walls and unproductive activities based on persecuting immigrants from Latin America gives the drug cartels a second line of business: acting as shepherds, guiding those who yearn to breathe free across the hostile desert to the land where hard work and honesty mean something. Not that it means anything to Lockwood or 81 – they couldn't care less; in fact they are openly hostile – but that, in America, the person who works hard can build a better life for their family. The American work ethic lives on in most unathorized immigrants to a far greater degree than it does in those crying "we need special hereditary favors because we can't compete otherwise."

Why does Michael Lockwood have such an obsession with feces, body cavities, and people's heads? Check out his posts, I'm not making it up.

do a pull your heads out party

pull each others head out

Pull your head out

try to get that head out

Again pull your head out

And that's just a few. Sometimes he uses pet names for the cavity. I'll spare you the pooh pooh references.

Commonsense...

txmom, do you just make that stuff up, or does someone else tell it to you.

And if someone else is telling it to you, why do you believe it without any evidence to back it up.

Commonsense...why would you assume that I have no evidence to back up my remarks? I live in an areas where the cheats continually abuse medical facilities. They receive treatment without intent to pay. Many, many of these are illegal immigrants who have no scruples with regard to the debt they incur. The mantra that the illegal immigrants work hard and are owed something by this nation allows and encourages those in this country illegally to take what they feel is owed to them that all others must pay for or qualify for.....Throughout or time in this area we have received bills to our addresses that do not belong to us. When we moved into the house we live in now...within two weeks of living in a new home we received third notice bills, under two different names, for Texas Children's Hospital. It seems reasonable to believe that these bills were originated by workers that had been contracted to participate in the building of this home. The home had been completed for 18 months. Yes I believe that these deadbeats offered a bogus address to the Hospitals for care. I believe they did this intentionally because they did not care to pay for the services offered to their child or children. I believe their intent was to defraud.

As I have three children and if they need hospital care this is the facility that we use. I wanted no conflict when it came to billing so I made several calls to assure this would not inhibit my children from receiving care if they needed it, because we actually value the professionals, their time, expertise and care and pay our bills. Through these calls I learned quite a bit about the problems of illegals and what they impose on the medical community.

I have every respect for any individual or families that immigrate to this country through legal means. Those who come to America legally place a great deal of time, money but most of all confidence in our system to offer them the same committment toward life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness that our great nation offers those who are born here. Those who cheat and bleed the system diminish the collective. It is not our system that is broken rather those who refuse to abide by our system.

commonsense

It is apparent to everyone that has ever read one of your posts that your are the one fixated with feces since you love having your head buried in its current position all the time.

You have no arguments and I have constantly refuted your posts where you try to use some sort of fact that shows illegals are needed and or wanted in this country.

You either do not answer or as above you try to go around anything I present. You have no facts and you are biased leading most to believe that you are an illegal, married or related to an illegal or need the labor of illegals to make a living.

You go ahead now run and hide and don't answer any of the questions I posed. Do us all a favor go back and sit on your couch and let grown ups discuss this issue. You obviously have nothing to add.

commonsense....

we need special hereditary favors because we can't compete otherwise."

I have never read anything so clueless in my life. This is not the point at all. Do you honestly believe that most Americans are scared of illegals surplanting us?

Wasting billions upon billions of dollars on building ineffective walls and unproductive activities based on persecuting immigrants from Latin America.... Not that it means anything to Lockwood or 81 – they couldn't care less; in fact they are openly hostile

Just so you know, I'm not for deportations, also it may help to know that I am hispanic, so my beliefs has nothing to do with prejudice. All I want is for it to be impossible for illegals (from all nations) to work in the US and strict penalties for any corporations or companies that knowingly hire them. That's it! what is wrong with that? Every country has these laws, why should the US not adopt this?

Meanwhile, we have a poor class that is maintained by the government.

Yeah, like others have said, pull your head out.

Once again for the IDIOTS who think CA is trouble due to illegals. Illegals were here before Prop 13 and here after Prop 13. The the undocumented did not cause any crisis before Prop 13 for decades!! So why suddenly are they causing a deficit crisis? Have you actually sit down and think the scenarios through or have you actually check how the sides are using ineffective and infactual data to argue their cases?

Have a brain. immigration is not a partisan issue. It sounds like a partisan issue because one party or the other will attempt to use this polarizing issue to divert attention. Whenever a party use this tactic, look their history or enforcement and their agendas to see if it is something that they are willing to go to bat for you.

All politicians are obliged to their contributors (not their voters). The larger the contribution, the greater the obligation. Unfortunately, it has been human nature since Ronald Regan let in the horde of lobbyists. Currently, the corporations are backing the Republcians (heavily). While the Unions remain the main supporters for the Democrats. Now, how would the Unions benefit having undocumented workers compete against their jobs or contracts? .... the fact is they are against it. The corporations and farming industry is heavily Republicans, who are constantly trying to reduce their bottom line which include wages, health benefits to the employees/unions.... In order to do so, they use undocumented workers to help reduce cost whenever possible (and also to compete against legal workers, so that the legal workers are not so complacent)... So why would the corporations and the farmers (Commerce) vote against their own interests? THEY DON'T!!!!!

Finally, for the idiots who think the Democrats are trying to get undocumented workers to vote for them? There has been ZERO case of undocumented alien who was guilty of illegal voting. Then there are the arguments that the Democrats are grooming for the next gen of undoc workers to become legal voters... HMMM, THE PROCESS takes over 7 years at best. Do you seriously think that your local politician will last beyond 8 years??? Then there are clear indication that new citizens (especially those of Latin roots, generally vote Republican instead of Democrats in South). You can check the FL, TX and other states on your own.

thturd

The statement about how the unions are against illegals is just more BS. The fact is one of the heads of the AFL-CIO was just in Alabama talking to the illegals and telling them that they were brothers and they supported them all the way. The fact is the unions see them as ignorant and uneducated and know that if they make them a few promises the illegals would quickly join the unions.

Nobody is claiming that getting rid of the illegals will fix all the economic problems in the U.S. but to say it won't help is BS.

Michael Lockwood, What are you trying to say? AFL-CIO is trying to recruit undocumented workers to vote??? Do you seriously think that Americans are so stupid? Are you still pissed at Martin Luther King? Are you a memeber of the Jim Crow Society? lol...

If you actually care about the Alabama businesses and lives are effected, here are the some of the blogs and documentations. There aren't any buisnesses large engough to sustain the likes of any unions in that area of town. The south has always been supressive enough that the workers dared not to form unions. You can read for yourselves why they (the African American delegates) were down there to document what is going on.... If there isn't anything then why worry? AFL-CIO are interested in documenting and observing the rights of Americans. You have a problem with that?

• http://blog.aflcio.org/2011/11/16/alabama-deli-owner-businesses-stands-strong-for-immigrant-rights/
• http://blog.aflcio.org/2011/11/15/african-american-delegation-arriving-now-in-alabama/
• http://www.aflcio.org/crisisal/

turd

Di I say anything about anyone trying to get the illegals registered to vote. Read what I wrote. It said nothing about votes did it. As for King, I was not old enough to know who he was. As far as Im concerned he did what needed to be done.

Are you somehow trying to compare illegals that have no right to be here, to the plight that the blacks faced in securing their civil rights? Please tell us how a black citizen being treated as a citizen is the same as an illegal coming here and demanding something he or she has no right to in the first place.

Go back and read/comprehend the AFL-CIOs position of Comprehensive Immigration Reform. In 2009 they published their so called framework for what they thought Reform should look like. This was a 5 point program and one of those points included "a swift adjustment of status for the illegals already presnt in the U.S.

They also stated that the AFL-CIO does not support the e-verify program.

The truth is the AFL-CIO sees the illegals as a chance to rebuild their dying Unions. They want the illegals to be legalized in hopes that they will quickly join the UNIONS and replenish their roles. They state that by changing the illegals status and making them legal that it will improve the status of all workers.

Some things they forgot are that many of those illegals have committed misdemeanors and felonies. Many are convicted criminals but the AFL-CIO doesn't even ask for any kind of screening. They just want a swift status change.

They also do not take into account that currently there are not enough jobs to go around in our current economy. How can any competent person or group say that more illegals are needed when we already have so many that are unemployed?

turd

Di you read any of these cites before you put them on here or were you just in a hurry to try to put something up. The last two cites just say that these delegations are going to Alabama to try to document what is going on. So what, so is the DOJ, so is the Alabama Govenor's office.

Please in these cites show where e-verify is against the law or should not be used. Is it just because your precious AFL-CIO claims it is wrong? How is making illegals self-deport so that legal residents can take the jobs wrong?

Do yourself a favor and do a little research. In several counties in Alabama the unemployment rates have dropped since the law was signed. In Marshall County, where most of the industry is poultry plants, (you know, the jobs that legal residents won't do), the unemployment rate went from 10% to 8.2% in just 5 months.

You say there is no industry big enough for a union. Really where? Is Mercedes not big enough for a union? How about Honda, or Toyota. Do you even know that Alabama has car manufacturing in the state? One of the reasons that businesses move to a right to work state is so they don't have to worry about strikes shutting down operations and costing them millions if not billions.

One need look no further than GM and Chrysler to see why most foreign owned car manufacturers have moved into southern states to conduct their businesses. Unions and their members think they should have the right to dictate how much they should receive in doing a job. If it were their own business, then I would agree but nobody is owed a job and the workers do not own a job slot.

No one owes you or any other person a living. That is the biggest problem in Europe right now. Everyone wants a pension instead of investing in their own future.

The bottom line is the AFL-CIO knows they have majorly slipped in power in recent years and the only hope they see is by adding millions of mostly un/undereducated illegals to their ranks to add to their dues, hence adding to their power.

Michael Lockwood: Like I pointed it out earlier. You are one hearty fool who will live for the short term gains. Not my cup of tea. I see you are still harping on Unions, which now have very little impact on industries. Southern states are cheapter to operate, because those state Republican officials give tax and land incentives. Those incentives cost tax payers. Those loopholes actually increases tax payer burdens.

HB56 was signed into law on September. So the improvement of the local country's unemployement over the past 5 months clearly is NOT DUE TO HB56. Both you and I know what you were suggesting in regards to AFL-CIO doing in the State of Alabama with undocumented workers. Deny all you want.... What you wrote is for all to see. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

turd

Do you do any reading whatsoever. Better yet do you comprehend what you read? The law was signed by Bentley on 9 June, so I guess that makes you the only fool in the room. Pull your head out or go sit back on the couch.

It is obvious to all that the AFL-CIO needs members and it sees a potential in the millions of illegals. Only an idiot would think otherwise. It is apparent by their actions and in their printed word.

Apparently, you don't. The H.B. 56 was blocked immediately from being enforced. It was not until late September that portion of the HB 56 was recognized by the Alabama Court deemed law (became law).

Don't really know why I am trying to inform someone who wish to remain in ignorance... However, this is really for anyone else who is reading... In general, most controversial laws will get challenged to prevent it from becoming officially a law. Unfortunately, there are many people like Michael Lockwood, who are still trying to falsify or mis-direct data so that you think they are telling the truth.

DO YOUR OWN FACT CHECKING.

thturd

Actually it is you that tries to twist data and the facts. If you were told tommorrow that your city was going to sink into the earth, in 3 months, and all science and all logic said the prediction was true, would you wait until day 89 to leave? Well considering your thought process I guess that is a moot point. You would be there to see how deep it went right?

The fact is once the law was passed the illegals started moving. Also once the law was passed the businesses that were not in compliance with e-verify started the process of weeding out their illegals.

If you had a clue..... you would know that no matter what the court does with this, the e-verify provision is golden and the Appeals court can not over turn that fact.

Do yourself a favor instrad of sounding so ignorant. Look up the BBVA study done on the effect e-verify had in the state of Arizona and you will find how truly ignorant you are to the facts.

Pull your head out do a little research and then you won't seem like a turd floating around face down in the tiolet bowl of common sense.

By the way Einstein. When the law was passed it was not immediately halted. If you had any idea of how laws go into effect you would find that this law like many others had several different compliance dates. The hold on parts of the Bill went into effect as the first parts of the law were to take effect.

In other words most laws do not go into effect once signed by the Governor or the President for that matter.

It isn't hard to look up Thurd the law was passed in June and the main parts took effect Sept 1. The hold on parts of the law did not go into effect until 14 Oct.

If you need the links and the proof I will gladly post them just so you won't have to use what ever you have in your pumpkin to do research. Im sure it is truly a strain for you to actually find the truth much less read it.

The dates are easy to find...... don't be a turd and look for them!

You can wish refuse and deny all you want. Like I said before, you're not the person I am trying to inform. Everyone knows that Laws do not become law immediately after it is signed, especially when it is challenged in the court. In this particular case there are provisions that were struck down in the Alabama Supreme Court.

People will look for signs and try to convince themselves of indication when there aren't the information.

As for Michael Lockwood, you already proved that you misled readers. Shame on you for continuing to blow hot air. If you already know that the laws don't immediately go into effect then why in the previous blog #1.200 you wrote "... In several counties in Alabama the unemployment rates have dropped since the law was signed. In Marshall County, where most of the industry is poultry plants, (you know, the jobs that legal residents won't do), the unemployment rate went from 10% to 8.2% in just 5 months..."

You willfully mislead given that you already know that the data does not have influence / persuasion other than appearance.... You are the worst kind of offender, because you treat people with callus thinking that you're are superior, hence entitled (because what is a little lie).... From earlier blogs, it is also clear that you were caught in compromising facts.... SHAME ON YOU and YOUR KINDS.

turd

Do you need a picture drawn for you????? A lot of people that know a tornado is on the way don't wait for it to hit their house before they seek shelter. Businesses are not going to wait until the full law goes into effect to come into compliance. Illegals are not going to wait until the full law comes into effect before they start leaving a state where they are not welcome.

Is that so hard for you to understand. No willful misleading, no BS just pure facts. I can't help it if you are too ignorant to see the truth or is it that you got showed and you cant stand it.

Do yourself a favor and sit back and relax because you have proven over and over that you just can't keep up.

No misdirections, no lies, no misleading statements; just plain truth, and just like old Jack said...... you can't handle the truth. You also can't find one time that I was compromising facts although the same can't be said for you and "YOUR KINDS". That is where the true shame, lies, misdirection, and compromised facts come in...... straight from your BS posts.

I work in South Dakota where the employer pays the help $8 an hour, and the owners take overseas vacations.

When you end up paying $6:00 for a jar of pickles, and prices escalate on any other stuff you buy in stores, you'll know.

worker pay is a very small part of the price per pickle. If it was doubled it would not make a big difference.

Actually it would. There is some very simple economics at work here. And I am guessing you cannot figure it out which shows the level of your ignorance and why this country is in such bad shape.

Watermelons are sold by the pound, and this $10 million represents pennies per pound per watermelon. If you have every picked one up you will notice they weigh considerably more than say a banana. If you raise labor rates to accommodate the wishes of the less than willing labor force, you would not be able to afford the cost of a watermelon, or cantelope, or any of the other produce that is hand picked.

America did not just start farming 10 or 20 years ago. The only reason some wish to continue supporting illegals is for profit.

Blacksheep-286101

20 million dollar industry....10 million for trucking the product....and the farmer can't or won't pay more to the workers??? Whats wrong with this picture??

...not to mention the 25 Billion Dollars given out annually in farm subsidies

"Danford is referring to the Republican lawmakers in Alabama who’ve passed the most severe immigration law in the United States. He’s angry at those Republicans for what he sees as a political move that has deeply affected his life on the farm".

I'm sure that Danford, enjoyed the cheap labor that came from these migrant workers also.......There are PLENTY of LEGAL migrants that have proper permits....he can hire the illegals cheaper, scape the ins and taxes and pay them cash though.

Get rid of the illegal ones and the LEGAL ones will appear....and don't give me any CRAP about breaking up families and all...they created this mess themselves...let em go home and sort it OUT!!!

Its simple folks - obey the law. Know it and follow it.

How many pickles can someone pick in an hour? I'm sure at least 200. A little more than 3 a minute should be doable. So if a worker gets $10 an hour then each pickle costs 5 cents in wages. How many pickles in a jar? Not sure but I'll guess 8 or so. So 40 cents of a jar of pickles goes to picking labor. Now double the wages to $20 an hour and the pickly picking cost per jar goes up just 40 cents, really not very much, and the picker now earns money at the rate of $40K a year. Can't find anyone to pick for that? Are you kidding? And it only tacks on about 40 cents to the cost of a jar of pickles? Ok, I don't see a real problem here. And, if ALL states actually enforced our laws, there would be no competitive disadvantage to raising wages. There you have it.

buy american, pay americans good wages, and we'll happily pay 6 bucks for american pickles from american workers in AMERICA!!

If you live in Alabama, you can continue to support the racist regime of the current Governor and buy your pickles from Mexico, or you can be a capitalist and let the farmers hire whomever they please.

Since it's their farm, and their money, they hire whomever they please, and run their business however they please.

Most of the commenters here want big government to make the hiring decisions, and they have the audacity to call themselvs 'conservative'?.

You big government types sound more like Soviet social engineers than anything that could plausibly be called conservative in this country. That wretching noise you hear is the Founding Fathers throwing up in their graves!

You are assuming that the American farmer gets a lot more for his product than he does. In fact, the processor, shipper, and the store where the product is sold make the bulk of the money that the retail price produces. If Zoo Lou's reasoning is correct, and it costs 5 cents in wages to pick a pickle cucumber, and the farmer gets 6 cents for his cucumber from the packing house, that leaves only 2 cents per cucumber profit! Since neither you nor I knows what the details of the deal are, why don't we both leave off discussing it?

Zoo Lou - If this business is anything like the one I am in, the difference of a half penny WILL make the difference on who we buy from. Loyalty is one thing, the bottom line is another.

Business will do whatever it takes to be the most competitive on the shelf. My wife will buy comparable products based on how well she likes them, but if two are acceptable, the one with the lower price goes in the cart (even if only a few pennies different).

You assume that the average American is going to work as diligently as the immigrant labor workers do. those immigrants work at a pace(with very few breaks), and long hours, that most Americans would cry about.

The amount of heat in the direct sun, would probably make half of the population sick. Then factor in all the bending at the lower back. Only the young and those in good physical condition(no back problems), would be able to keep up the pace.

$10 an hour isn't that low of a wage. It's still above minimum wage.

Hey Wizard, you forgot IFTA and the cost of permits at every state line!!

Commonsense..."If you live in Alabama, you can continue to support the racist.." You forgot to use xenophobe, nazi and "show me your papers"!!

"Since it's their farm, and their money, they hire whomever they please, and run their business however they please." WOW!!! Serioulsy? Totally unregulated? I guess you want exactly the same thing for corporate America and Wall Street?

"Most of the commenters here want big government to make the hiring decisions, and they have the audacity to call themselvs 'conservative'?." No, they just want the farmers to hire Americans or (legal) Immigrants.

Jeff...

20 million dollar industry....10 million for trucking the product....and the farmer can't or won't pay more to the workers??? Whats wrong with this picture??

Translated: I don't know WTH I am talking about and show it every chance I get. :)

Translated: Neither do I...

hope we get free health care cause my hands have blisters from doing the work that the high class american don't want to do, they would rater sit on ther butt and get free stuff than actually work for it. me and my family needs it work cause we needs to eat, I vote por Obama, he will fix tis racial lazy country!

hs321 - you say

"Most of the commenters here want big government to make the hiring decisions, and they have the audacity to call themselvs 'conservative'?." No, they just want the farmers to hire Americans or (legal) Immigrants."

How about we apply that same sentiment to all big corporations and stop buying products from American companies that have shipped all of their factories to China, MX, etc? Seems that we are all crying that illegals are here doing work that Americans would never do for $10 an hour. But we willingly shop at Walmart and buy cheap stuff that, if produced in America, would cost triple the amount (or more). If we, as citizens of the US were as passionate about demanding that US comanies stop sending jobs to other countries, as we are about blaming all of our unemployement problems on illegals, then maybe we'd have more companies keeping their factories in the US, and hiring more US workers. Our unemployement might drop so low that we wouldn't need to spend so much time worrying about the illegals picking our produce.

"In California, farmer are investing money in equipment that will do the same job that illegals have been doing in the past.

Why can't the farmers take the money that they pay illegals and use it to invest in their own futures instead?"

What can you invest in for $25/year?

I am so sick of these articles about how Americans won't do the jobs or that if you raise the wage to get Americans to do the jobs the prices would skyrocket. This is a huge pile of crap. First of all, if you pay a decent wage with decent benefits, you will have people lined up to take the jobs. You just can't get away with paying Americans below minimum wage with no benefits. I read an article a few days ago talking about a Mexican tomato picking crew. They estimated that for an eleven hour day (7 am to 6 pm) picking tomatoes they would each wind up getting paid about $60. Even if you factor in a half hour for lunch and two fifteen minutes breaks, one in the morning and one in the afternoon, you are looking at $6.00/hr. This is well below the current federal minimum wage of $7.25/hr. (Alabama has no state minimum wage so federal law applies) plus they get no benefits. Of course you will not get Americans to work for these illegal wages.

As for the idea that paying a decent wage will drive food prices through the roof, this is a load of crap. The labor costs of picking the crops are a very small percentage of the total amount you pay for produce in the stores. The example for picking tomatoes was based on them getting paid $2 per basket of tomatoes. I can only guess at the number of tomatoes in a basket, but I would guess that the labor costs come down to literally pennies per tomato. Even if you were to double the wage rate and then add for benefit to maybe triple the labor costs, it would have a minuscule impact on the actual price consumers pay at the store for the product. The only real impact would be cutting into the farmer's profits and maybe raising the wholesale cost a few cents. These are trivial once you add on the transportation costs and all the markups that are added along the way by everyone that touches that produce.

As for the argument in this article that is this farmer paid his workers more than companies would simply buy from growers in other states, there is a simple solution to that. Get the federal government to do it's job and put an and to the employment of illegals at substandard wages across the entire US. This would keep the playing field both level and legal. Granted, this grower says he is paying $10/hr, which if true is a legal wage, but still not a living wage, plus I doubt he pays any benefits for his workers. I also seriously question how much raising his labor rates to even say double, to say $15/hr wage plus benefits costing maybe and additional $5/hr, would really impact his price to the wholesalers. Once you add in all of his other costs like seed, equipment maintenance and operation, fuel costs, fertilizer costs, land taxes, irrigation costs, transportation, etc. I wonder what percentage of his cost does the labor component really represent. None of these farmers are going to open their books and show you because they do not want people to know the truth and blow their whole argument.

American Lobo - I think it's more a matter of the illegals know that if they speak up about the work conditions they'd be fired or worse, turned into to INS. With that kind of leverage you can get away with demanding long hours in the hot sun at low wages. I saw an article last week about illegals working 11 hour days in the fields for roughly $60/day. Really??? Is that what we want???

Can't say I'm too surprised at the level of ignorance in response to this story. It isn't like you're going to get any type of economic education in school.

I don't think anyone here actually understands business or modern agriculture at all.

$10/hr is a good wage, but ask yourself, you, person behind the keyboard, Do you want to do very physical labor for 16-18 hrs a day? 6 days a week? Do you think any other American wants to? Americans are the most overweight people in the world, but I guarantee you will not find a single fat migrant worker. That governor needs to get back in touch with reality.

For some reason most of you seem to think that all farm owners are somehow super rich wall street tycoons. They have no concept of what a margin is, or the difference between gross profit and net profit.

20 million dollar industry....10 million for trucking the product....and the farmer can't or won't pay more to the workers??? Whats wrong with this picture??

Yes, What indeed? Do you think that farmer made $10 million in profit? That farmer likely made around $25-50k for the year.

Large harvesting equipment runs anywhere from $100k to $1m a piece, and he's probably going to need several of them. Where do you propose he get the money from to switch to automation? Further, some vegetable crops are currently impossible to automate. What would you do if you had those choices to make?

Seems to me if you can build a machine that picks cotton, you can build a machine that picks pickles, not that I even like pickles. I think if you want to get that big as to where you ship $6M of pickles to Wisconsin then you should buy a pickle picker. Sure the machine costs money and the migrant workers don't, so then the real problem here is....................... GREED!

I bet if the crop were cannabis, you would have no shortage of workforce; some might even work for free? :-)

worker pay is a very small part of the price per pickle.

Probably true, but if you don't have enough labor to get your product to market there will be less to satisfy demand. With a leaner supply the prices increase. This is elementary school economics. If Alabama has trouble getting her harvest to market, I suppose the Republican thing to do would be to blame the farmers. You Republicans can go right ahead and blame the farmers and see how far it gets you on election day.

Red Sailor - Pickles are not pickles until they are pickled. When they are picked, they are cucumbers. They are produced into pickles by Vlasic.

(Humor in a rough day...)

Boo Hoo--- these lawbreakers aren't going to be able to participate in the black-market labor scheme on which they have previously relied to pay poverty level wages and no benefits --- so sad (sarcasm)--- Now-- you're actually going to have to pay a true market wage rather than continuing to subvert American law.

But let me ask you this lawbreakers---

* Did you provide health insurance for your ILLEGAL workforce? NO? Who do you think gets to subsidize your lawbreaking enterprise? The American taxpayers--- that's who (as when illegals have no health insurance, their medical insurance is funded by the American taxpayers). When will you be refunding the American taxpayers and the national treasury?

Did you pay the employer portion of social security taxes for your ILLEGAL workforce? NO? You have defrauded American taxpayers again!!! When can we expect your deposit into the national treasury?

Do your ILLEGAL workers have children who attend American public schools? Did your ILLEGAL workers pay enough in taxes to cover the thousands of dollars per child for this education? NO becuase they didn't make enough? Who, once again, is subsidizing your ILLEGAL workforce--- THE AMERICAN TAXPAYER!

Cheap Labor is not Cheap---- it's just that the lawbreakers have endeavored to shift the true costs of doing business onto the American taxpayers rather than themselves!

Sabrina Steele is accusing Pope's Plant Farm in Greenback, Tenn. of discouraging her from taking a job so the farm could hire foreign workers.

She "sued" the farm because they discriminated against her because she was a citizen.

Red Sailor - there is a really huge difference between picking cotton and picking cucumbers. The cotton can be squeezed, cut, and banged up and no harm done. The cucumbers can't withstand that sort of treatment. Same with strawberries, tomatoes, and well, you get the picture.

Dare I mention that most of the responsibility for the illegal immigration mess lies with the Republicans themselves. There were three key issues that set it up:

1) Back in the 1940's, and especially right after WWII the Republicans took on the cause of public education. You can look at the GOP platforms from the time and see how big a deal it was made. (And their emphasis on public education was what enabled them to, in the 50's and 60's morph into supporters of separate but equal.) But their target in the 40's were migrant workers --- the displaced dust bowl people from Grapes of Wrath. The GOP pushed and puched for laws against them. They contended they were "gypsies" and filthy and harbored disease and "sucked at the public teat far too much." And the GOP got laws passed in every state and locality that said that if you didn't keep your kids in school for 9 months every year (an impossibility for migrant workers) they would go to jail. And thousands were picked up for not having their kids in school and sentenced to prison and the kids put in orphanages. This pretty much killed migrant workers as a source of farm labor. It was illegals who replaced them. A few states tried to work with migrant kids and tried to set up things like Indian-bureau-like schools and such, but the GOP kept these activities confined to a few charities.

2) And then along came Ronnie Reagan. He noticed that most Hispanics except high-born Castillian Cubanos were voting Democratic. He wanted to curry favor with the Hispanic vote and thought the way to do it was to declare unconditional amnesty and a path to citizenship for about 4 million illegal immigrants and conditional amnesty for about 8.2 million more. This created an expectation among illegal immigrants that future presidents would do the same and the floodgates broke.

3) The 14th Amendment was intended only to protect freed slaves from deportation after the Civil War. But it was the GOP who sought to keep the natal citizenship language as it is. At the time they were currying the Irish illegal immigrant vote and thought it would help them make inroads with the Irish voters.

The GOP made this mess, so how about the GOP mans up, takes responsibility, and fixes it by simply creating two programs: 1) A military service program that allows an illegal immigrant to declare such upon being sworn in to the military. Then upon 6 years combined active and inactive honorable service, they automatically are granted full citizenship and their wives and children, if illegal, are placed on 3-year citizenship fast track. 2) Start a guest worker program. This would allow Mexican and other foreign workers to come to this country and work in the fields for 6 months out of every year. They would be exempt from Social Security and Medicare taxes since they would not be allowed to enroll, but would pay all other taxes just like anyone else. They would have to return to their country for at least 5 months and keep a clean police record before being able to return the next year.

It is astounding how many city people have no idea how their food is produced. Only certain row crops can be machine-picked. They must be crops that ripen mostly at once because the pickers destroy the greenery. They must not be bruisable because mechanical pickers are rough on crops. And the crop cannot have too much waste. Mechanical picking typically wastes around 40-60% of the crop. Harvesting wheat, for example, wastes about 40% which just falls on the ground. Canning tomatoes lose about 65% because they only do one picking and can use mechanical pickers because they want the tomatoes dead ripe and don't care if they're bruised a little. Crops like cucumbers are on vines and ones destined for pickle packers are too small to be harvested mechanically.

When I was a kid (I'm 68 now) I used to sucker tobacco for $.14 a tenth row. I wouldn't do it for a thousand dollars a row and don't know anyone who would. It is hard, hard work in hot southern sun and it was a bad way for even a kid to make pocket change.

WillingSniper (2.30)--- that's what you get when you engender a sense of entitlement to break the law through non-enforcement of our laws!

Really? The idea of letting farmers hire whomever they want is offensive?

It's called capitalism, folks, and it works better than the socially-engineered society the big-brother-government bigots are selling the public on.

Alabama's farmers are a case in point.

Who knows more about farming, farmers or bigoted politicians?

Permitting some people to violate the law while holding others to the rules is NOT CAPTITALISM --- it's anarchy. Capitalism requires a set of rules by which all participants must play--- it's called THE RULE OF LAW! When someone seeks to subvert the law by paying poverty level wages and no benefits (or bathroom breaks as mentioned in the article)--- this does NOT represent CAPITALISM or fairness!

The key issue that set up unauthorized immigration is that we only ALLOW half as many people as we HIRE.

We should let anyone come here who wants to, as long as they work hard and pay taxes. INSTEAD, the political hacks in 1986 pushed through some social engineering BS that limits the numbers of Mexicans, Latin Americans, Philipinos, Indians, Catholics, etc.

Since then, we have ALLOWED only 5,000 low skilled laborers to enter the US each year. Yet we have HIRED 500,000 per year; and the companies that hired them gave them all the training they needed, at NO EXPENSE to the rest of us. Not allowing those people to be citizens is crazy. It is bad for the economy, it is bad for the country, and it is bad for the US taxpayer.

The bigotry of some is driving the whole nation down the tubes.

Sally Lu, Do you really think illegals care as long as they can stay here, get lots of freebies (ed, food, healthcare on our dollar) hence you statement while was accurate was off topic.

Now to Mr. Danford

A. Slave Labor was outlawed in this country long ago and your current actions are a form of SLAVERY and wrong.

B. YOU do not pay Employee taxes on illegal immigrants and that is unfair to the people of ALA and to all legal AMERICANS in this country that you cal home.

C. IF you need real AMERICAN EMPLOYEES--GO TO YOUR LOCAL VETERAN CENTER< DRIVE UP AND DOWN CITY STREETS AND YOU WILL FIND EMPLOYEES WOULD BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO WORK FOR YOU EVEN IF IT IS MANUAL LABOR FOR MINIMUM WAGE____AS IT IS BETTER THAN NOTHING!

D. GO TO HOMELESS SHELTERS AND HIRE THOSE MOMS AND DADS WHO LOST THIER JOBS AND HOMES TO FRAUDULENT BANKING DEALS.

E. GO TO SOUP KITCHENS I AM SURE AND ABSOLUTELY POSITIVE THAT YOU WILL FIND AMERICAN EMPLOYEES OR THOSE WITH LEGAL GREEN CARDS WHO WOULD WORK FOR YOU IN THOSE FIELDS AS AMERCIANS DID LONG AGO! IT WAS AMERICANS WHO PICKED THE FILEDS DURING THE GREAT DEPRESSION AND IT SHOULD BE AMERICANS TO PICK THOSE FIELDS ONCE AGAIN. PICKING/HARVESTING FOODS IN FILEDS IS WHAT STARTED THIS COUNTRY AND WHAT HAS SUSTAINED US SINCE THE MAYFLOWER FIRST LANDED!!!!!

F. You are promoting and sustaining the Slave LABOR of illegals over that of hiring true AMERICAN EMPLOYEES FOR A MINIMUM WAGE---SHAME ON YOU!

Here's an idea... How about getting kids out of school for harvest season, as was done before there was one illegal alien around, to pick your stupid crops? Pay them to pick the crops. This way, the Mexicans stay in Mexico where they belong, our money stays in the USA where it belongs, helping the American economy, kids can actually make some money, get some exercise, and lose weight. Get those kids off their cell phones and computers and put their butts to work. Then, when harvest season is finished, back to school they go.

Prison labor could make up the difference. Let these prisoners earn their keep. Not the hard criminals, but the ones in for minor crimes. Make them pick so many bushels per day minimum. Another source of labor?- The millions that are collecting unemployment, welfare, and food stamps. Put them to work also. Problem solved.

Most people in this thread are thinking small. The economy is now global, it's not a state vs. state competition anymore. The supply chain involves the entire world, and as such, companies will go find the cheapest possible materials which will give them a price advantage. It doesn't matter if they buy it from Alabama, California, Mexico, South America, or Vietnam. If you can't compete with them, your business dies, period.

This is the reality of business, fractions of a penny saved in a single item will translate to a higher stock price, and that's what most companies care about, pleasing their investors. A corporation is amoral and will only try to follow its mission statement, most likely without regard to the side effects of it's actions as long as the mission is accomplished.

wow!!!!!! the community sure is busy collapsing good posts !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

To Chris 749391---you, sir, are only one of perhaps two or three in this very, very, very, long series of rants and raves that is spot on. As far as people squawking about "illegals," the entire farming industry is heavily dependent on migrant workers for produce that WILL NOT STAND UP to machine handling. Most farmers, I dare say, do NOT pay by the hour, but by "piece," or by weight picked or handled. I would be willing to bet that there is nary a person in this train of comments that will: Lie on a low trailer with the top part of his or her torso hanging off it to pick strawberries at supersonic speed while the trailer travels down a row, in the heat and hot sun. Or who will spend HOURS bent over the waist in the same conditions picking cucumbers, cabbage, lettuce, arrange them in crates and carry them to a truck, also in the sun. Or hang over the same type of low trailer planting tomatoes, peppers and other brittle plants that CANNOT be planted by machine. Or how about picking those tiny little blueberries? Do you know how hot it is in July & August standing in the sun? I DO! There is NOT ONE single American who will work THAT HARD. Not one would last two days. And certainly, you will not find one high school student, or even college student for that matter, who would be willing to earn money by working that hard to pay his or her tuition. No damned way. I could not even find a kid in my neighborhood would would cut grass at TWENTY DOLLARS AN HOUR because I didn't have a riding mower and they didn't feel like walking. It was 'TOO MUCH WORK." Bah!! People squawk about migrants taking American jobs. Can you find Americans who will do them? NO WAY. I suggest everyone here who crabs about paying migrant workers best learn how to plant gardens--in pots, in windowsills, or even in your bathtub, or the trunk of your car because you do not know what you are talking about, and eventually, you will be paying $5 for a head of lettuce, $8 for a quart of strawberries, and $12 for a quart of blueberries or cherries, not to mention $6 for a pound for peaches or apples. Unless of course you are willing to buy food that says "imported from CHINA!!!!"

Minimum wage in Alabama is not 10 dollars per hour as the article stated. Mr Danford DID NOT say that he is paying his part-time or seasonal labour 10 dollar per hour.

The folks that he hires are here illegally...do you really think that he is paying them state or federal minimum wage when the minimum wage through out the USA average from 2.25-2.75 to 8.75 dollars or less.

In the southern states the minimum wage is on the lower end and in many cases there are no set minimum wages in the first place.

If he was offering 10 dollars per hour he would actually have more people to do the job than he would need. I dare say that even illegals would risk being picked up by the authorities if they were getting or had access to 10 dollars per hour. These folks are probably lucky if they earn 2.75 per hour.

They are more paid by the basket or container picked and not by the hour.

It is no different from a person who work in a sweat shop for 50 cents per item sewn.

This is the usual muddying of the water that is attempted by some of these republican conservative teabagger dino folks. The same thing was done when it was stated a couple of years ago that the unionized auto manufactoring employees on the line were earning over 60 dollars pr hour or something like that, when in actuality they were earning only about 20 dollars per hour which was a few dollars per hour over what auto manufacturers were paying their employees in the right to work States.

If the farmers are indeed paying 10 dollars per hour perhaps they will now find employees after they read this article ..... if indeed these farmers are or were actually paying that sort of pay. LOL

PS.. wasn't there an article on a chicken processing plant in a southern state that was staffed with folks here illegally here and even some citizens who were being paid less than 7-8 dollars per hour... LOL. Do you really believe that these farmers were going to pay seasional workers that sort of money? The workers would be lucky to get 2.75 per hour.

FAMINE in the US is a very real possiblity if a solution to this illegals/farmers political issue is not found. If prices are forced up state by farming state (Alabama now, other states to follow) and companies (always about the bottom line) start importing cheaper 'goods' from other countries, we could end up no longer producing the majority of our own food. We already import 32% of our fruits and 13% of our vegetables. If a natural disaster, war or world crisis or food crisis occured, the countries we import our food supplies from would feed their own populations first and we would have a massive food shortage on a scale the US has never experienced. I don't mean to sound like an alarmist, but this situation could have far-reaching negative consequences down the road, if we started to depend on other countries for an even larger supply of our food. It would not be a good idea and the thought of it is scary. I agree with everything Whats ina Name posted. The reality of big business is about pleasing investors and board of directors, with no concern about negative chain reactions (sub-prime, derivatives, recession anyone?)...and politicians have no clue about the side-effects from their myopic policies. I agree with a lot of posters that immigration laws should be enforced, where it concerns construction, landscaping etc. But, when it comes to farming and leaving farmers in a crisis that will result in scaling back or even going under and companies importing, some serious brainstorming and viable solutions (not blanket policy) need to be considered by our govt. Many companies outscource to save money, let's not let that happen with our food also. We need to be our own food source!

And these republicans always boast how smart they are, well being smart means having foresight to have seen this coming, now you cry babies will cry about the cost of produce rising, you people have not got a clue, you are sheep following your puppet masters thinking you will some how get ahead, that is only in your dreams, you got what you wanted now where are those worker that could not get a job because of the illegal, Oh right kicking back collecting Welfare ...... LMAO

Tess

Another statement that has pegged out the 'full of Crap' meter. Do you really think that lettuce will go up to $8 a head? Really???? Get a grip and try to pull your head out!

Over 90,000 illegals left the state of Arizona the first year after Arizona passed mandatory use of e-verify. Lettuce prices did not go up. They also didn't go up after SB1070 went into effect.

Do yourself a favor and go take an economics 101 class because you could really use one.

I should have none that your post was going to be warped just for the simple reason that you thought Chris was spot on.

OWLIGHT

Its called an H2-B Visa. The problem is most of these farmers that are whining about the law don't want to get legal workers. They prefer not to do the paperwork because nobody made them do it in the past.

Do you really believe that these farmers were going to pay seasional workers that sort of money? The workers would be lucky to get 2.75 per hour.

You obviously do not have a clue what you are talking about. I have a friend who does the books for a local apple orchard. They hire immigrants... legal immigrants. They have had the same crew every year for the last 15-20 years...some new faces here and there. They earn enough money in one season to live extremely well back in Mexico the rest of the year. Picking is not unskilled labor and it is hard work. Yes it is piece rate, but it is well paid piece rate if you know what you are doing.

commonsense...how long are you going to continue to spout this nonsense: "Since then, we have ALLOWED only 5,000 low skilled laborers to enter the US each year."

Yes, that's the law on the books, but there are so many loopholes and other programs, like the family reunification, that allow many more than that in.

Here it is right from the government:

"Admissions of Immediate Relatives of U.S. Citizens. In
keeping with the objective of family reunification, the
immediate relatives of U.S. citizens—spouses, parents of
citizens ages 21 and older, and unmarried children under
21—are admitted without numerical limitation."

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/70xx/doc7051/02-28-Immigration.pdf

That means as soon as someone gets citizenship, they can bring their relative over "without numerical limitations." (Thousands of Mexicans walk across our border and have kids here ever year. When they come of age, they walk across the border and then bring the whole family with them based on this policy. You do understand what the term ABUSE means don't you?)

You know full well what you keep saying about the 5000 thousand is a blatant half-truth, yet you spout it out like its set in stone.

Do you realize when you do this you lose credibility?

Oh, and let me quote a little more:

Admissions of Immediate Relatives of U.S. Citizens. In
keeping with the objective of family reunification, the
immediate relatives of U.S. citizens—spouses, parents of
citizens ages 21 and older, and unmarried children under
21—are admitted without numerical limitation. In 2004,
about 406,000 immediate relatives of U.S. citizens were
admitted, accounting for about 43 percent of all permanent
admissions.

406,000!!! You know darn well many of those 406,000 are unskilled, under-educated adults, i.e. "low skilled laborers."

Thousands of Mexicans walk across our border and have kids here ever year. When they come of age, they walk across the border and then bring the whole family with them based on this policy.

BS, do you realize how long it takes to get a parent or sibling a Visa? It took 3 years for my MIL and FIL, my FIL only got to visit twice before he died. We filed for my brother in law almost 10 years ago and we are still waiting. I think you need to get facts and quit writing fiction.

Most produce farms pay the pickers by the bushel, the basket or the tote filled. That's why you'll see entire migrant familes doing the harvest.

As to watching them pick the melons, the first thought that came to mind when seeing them pick a melon and throw it to five different peolpe to get in the "bus' was what a waste of manpower. Design the "bus" with conveyor belts that extend out and and each of the five people pick melons. and the cost would be less than a couple of thousand dollars for the angle iron, belting and gears.

You may not be able to automate the picking of cucumbers, but if the pickers sat on a "tow behind" conveyor, they could be more effeicent in picking, since they wouldn't need to " stop, bend over, pick cucumber, stand up and move to the next one" The farmers gotten so use to cheap labor, they have gotten lazy trying to find ways to improve their operations. "Old habits die the hardest"

You don't need to be a "rocket scientist" to figure out there are better ways of doing this.....

TamL...reading comprehension? Where did I say anything about how long it takes? Nowhere. I merely quoted a government document that talked about the numbers of people that can be brought over, not how fast.

The government said 406,000 were admitted in one year (2004). If you have problem with that, talk to the feds.

commonsense...how long are you going to continue to spout this nonsense: "Since then, we have ALLOWED only 5,000 low skilled laborers to enter the US each year."

Yes, that's the law on the books

That's right. That IS the law on the books. At least you admit it.

And it is undeniably one of the stupidest 'laws' in the whole history of mankind.

And anyone who opposes immigration reform SUPPORTS THAT STUPID 'LAW'.

"Since it's their farm, and their money, they (should be allowed to) hire whomever they please, and run their business however they please."

WOW!!! Serioulsy?

Yes. Seriously.

It's called capitalism, and it works far better than the centrally planned, social engineering nonsense that you spout.

Speaking of centrally planned social engineering, how's the Soviet Union doing these days? The Third Reich?

Admissions of Immediate Relatives of U.S. Citizens blah, blah, blah

And those who are NOT immediate relatives of US citizens are NOT allowed to immigrate if they are from Latin America, the Philipines, India, or most Catholic countries. But if they are from northern Europe, they qualify for a 'diversity visa' lottery.

That's just wrong.

Where did I say anything about how long it takes? Nowhere. I merely quoted a government document that talked about the numbers of people that can be brought over, not how fast.

Your post makes it sound like the minute these kids turn 18 they will be sponsoring all of their relatives. There are strict income guidelines, the sponsor must be able to support everyone they sponsor. Not many 18 years olds are really capable of doing that.

You people who suggest that migrant workers should be grateful for earning more than the minimum wage...maybe even $10 an hour....make me sick to my stomach. Evidently you missed my post where I spelled out the math whereby someone doing back breaking work for the generous (ha!) wage of $10 an hour, which after taxes comes to around $1200 a month, or around 14 grand a year. Many of you said these pickle pickers were probably making closer to the minimum wage, which would mean they'd be earning closer to 10 grand a year. These aren't classified as decent wages, they're called POVERTY wages or SLAVE wages. But you compassionate geniuses think the migrants should be more than satisfied making this kind of money working 12 hour days, where the employer figures out how to dodge OT. After all, this kind of money should be able to secure their family some choice real estate under a friggin' bridge, right? Somehow I don't think this wage would be ok with you or your white buddy next door if you were doing the same work, know what I mean? But it's more than ok for the migrant worker who enables you and your neighbor to enjoy relatively cheap produce, right?

Enjoy $15 dollar a jar pickles, that is if you can find them. :)

labor is just a small part of the cost of a pickle. If the pay was to double it would not make a difference in the cost and people would have work

Minan50,

"You get what you pay for"

That's true, and you also get what you vote for. The farmer in this article said he voted Republican, so he's getting what he deserves.

Jeff, you are ok with supporting illegals as long as you can buy a cheaper product?

I love it we'll pay wall street large amounts of money so they will work better for us did sorry had to get that out. back on track now you can't raise pay on farm's to scale's that average guy or gal would find OK with out making farmers go instantly belly up yes tere are large amounts of money being used in this kind of work most of it doesn't stay in the worker's or farmers hand's it seams farmer are rich but most of the money won't stay in their hands for long they have large overhead cost with the need to keep reserves (Harder to get money from banks these days) for unforseen things (no more workers) if this go's on private farm for profit will go away just like mom&pop store it will be a sad day for many thanks to the far right pols.

If things cost too much due to the hiring of legal workers then I just won't buy them - I am not going to cry because I can't afford a jar of pickles - I would feel better knowing that the illegal immigrants were not sponging off of our society - just because you can't afford something doesn't mean that life is unfair.

An added note - If the Mexicans do not have enough love of their own country to try and fix it but instead run over here then I do not want that kind of coward in my country

Two points:

1) American farmers have employed LEGAL migrant farm workers -of many different ethnicities- for more than a hundred years. Alabama's law will not change that.

The farmworker population is racially and culturally diverse, and there are varying opinions on their legal status. The data from the most recent NAWS study indicates that 52% of farmworkers are not citizens or legal residents of the United States, while another report from the same time period argues that the majority of migrant and seasonal farmworkers are U.S. citizens or legal residents.

2) A person working outside the law is also, by definition, working outside the protection of the law. I have no problem with hard work and low wages. I do have a problem with exploiting illegal workers to produce a cheap jar of pickles.

Minan59:

You get what you pay for; higher wages attract a higher quality of laborers

Admit it - you didn't read (or maybe didn't understand) the article. The guy clearly states that the workers he has been using are more efficient than the Americans that tried out for him - saying that “The people that you could get locally, they wouldn't -- regardless of what you offered them, within reason -- they wouldn't put in the long hours. It'd take probably three (of them) to do what two of the immigrant workers do,”

Thats not getting what you pay for.

Jeff-1592116

Enjoy $15 dollar a jar pickles, that is if you can find them. :)

hey, if I can stop supporting illegals and worrying about having a car accident with them or them stealing my identity - I'll gladly give up pickles

How about we make it easier for non-residents/aliens to get work visas and start the process of legal residency or citizenship?

That looks like the best solution to the problem.

Many of you forget that most "illegals" are paid by check, and have deductions taken out. Almost all of them pay rent and buy food and other goods. A good chunk of their money goes back into the US economy.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1978&dat=19650419&id=O2MiAAAAIBAJ&sjid=3KsFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2010,6106728

It looks like this has been going on for quite awhile, look at the date on this newspaper article.

diesel - "Thats not getting what you pay for"

No, that is exactley "getting what you pay for"... it's not getting what you want (i.e. cheap slave-like labor).

The people who are not "getting what they pay for" is the American taxpayers whose dollars go to pay for the education of anchor babies and health-care costs of illegals... not to mention the lost wages.

@piegan

Typically the prison system gets some of that pay back, and a small portion goes to the prisoners themselves. I agree though, it would probably cost the farmers about the same as it would to hire immigrants, possibly a little more.

My biggest concern is with food prices. Food prices are rising constantly, if the workers are no longer there, or if the farmers have to pay significantly higher wages to get "American" workers to do the work, that cost will be passed onto the consumer. As it is already nearly half of my food budget is fresh vegetables and fruit. If prices continue to rise, there is no way I will be able to afford nearly as much fruit and vegetables I currently buy on a weekly basis.

"Many of you forget that most "illegals" are paid by check, and have deductions taken out" Oh your talking right out of your A$$hole now... No, they get paid cash. Employers hiring illegals are in violation of LAW and it would cost them a lot more than what they pay them to work the fields for years to come...

American farmers have employed LEGAL migrant farm workers -of many different ethnicities- for more than a hundred years.

Back when slavery was LEGAL, it wasn't really an issue in Alabama, was it?

If things cost too much due to the hiring of legal workers then I just won't buy them - I am not going to cry because I can't afford a jar of pickles - I would feel better knowing that the illegal immigrants were not sponging off of our society - just because you can't afford something doesn't mean that life is unfair.

Interesting statement this. Here, this person admits that they get a financial benefit from the presence of undocumented laborers in this country, and yet at the same time makes the claim that somehow these lazy immigrants are "sponging off him."

BTW, it's just just a single jar of pickles you would have to pay more for. It would be every jar, every item of food, everything becomes more expensive.

"We want to pay the cheapest price for our food. We don't understand that comes at a price."

Eduardo Pena, taken from this clip from Food, Inc.

Pointless: your moniker fits you well.

I've known many "illegals" who have bank accounts, and do indeed get a check as payment.

1. Pay workers fair wages, with better employment conditions

2. Americans will take the jobs

3. Advertise on produce "Picked by American Citizens in Alabama"
3.5 Competition sues those that misuse the label (as happens with false-advertising in business already)

4. I pay more for that produce to support living wages (and also legal labor), with a great big smile on my face.

Can you check with them and see which one is using my social security number?

pjam - How is paying more and getting less in return "getting what you pay for" exactly? The normal line of thought is pay more - get more . . .

this law is a dream come true for all the red necks in Alabama .. its like hitting the lottery .. just get a job picking crops .. work for a month then suddenly have a bad back that wont allow you to ever work again .. free insurance free food free housing .. ITS A RED NECKS WILDEST DREAM COME TRUE

You get what you pay for; higher wages attract a higher quality of laborers.

Only if the field is open to all. If you legislate that the best laborers are not allowed to work, you will get a lower quality of laborer, even if you pay more and ensure that the eligible workers have lighter skin.

commonsense

Just more proof of your racist tone. You pull the race card but your posts show that you are the true racist in the bunch.

Amen piegan, amen.

In the past two weeks there have been two serious car accidents in my town - both involving Mexican nationals who had neither valid drivers licenses or insurance.

There was a police officer seriously injured in one of the crashes - and they are now asking for donations to help with his expenses:

http://www.ocala.com/article/20111108/ARTICLES/111109722?p=1&tc=pg

For those of you who wring your hands about the plight of poor "undocumented workers" - how about sending some money to help out this police officer and his family instead?

So I guess that you are saying that native born Americans don't crash cars, don't drive drunk or drugged and always have insurance. Try to think through your arguments because this one makes you just seem stupid.

Piegan- I like to clarify my comment, I was stating that if American voters are so against amnesty then why vote for those Politicians who support it like Obama. Thats what I meant.

@Kay (post #4.4): Are you serious? How 'bout thinking through your arguments first before posting because it makes you seem sophomoric otherwise. Basically what you are saying is Americans crash cars so it's fine that illegals do to, more crashes on the road are acceptable, more people injured/killed. This is all just fine and dandy, as long as it doesn't effect you and your ignorant liberal agenda, right?

piegan - You do know about the Simpson-Spazzoli act of 1986? The bipartisan law enacted for immigration reform that granted amnesty to many "illegal" workers across the nation and introduced the I-9 form (the federal requirement to state a worker's immigration status - sounds a lot like what AL is doing now, is it not?).

It did not destroy any job market or take jobs from Americans, because Americans don't want to do these jobs, at any price.

KayT-1718089

So I guess that you are saying that native born Americans don't crash cars, don't drive drunk or drugged and always have insurance. Try to think through your arguments because this one makes you just seem stupid.

ah yes, the old "well, ya'all do it too - so there!" argument.

Very clever....oh smart one.

I'm not saying anything of the kind; however, I am sure that most, if not all, illegals have no license or insurance. Furthermore, if I am in an accident with an American citizen who does not at least I have some kind of recourse available to me.

The illegal just leaves the country. leaving me (and you and everybody else) holding the bag.

You should include people like Rick Perry. He signed into law a provision allowing the children of illegals in-state college tuition rates. TX has a wink-and-nod attitude about illegals. We hate 'em at the teabag rallies, but we love 'em when it's time to pick onions. Hypocrites.

Yes, native born Americans crash cars, drive drunk and sometimes don't have insurance. When they cause an accident, they can be found and dealt with. Illegals, on the other hand, simply disappear, and leave their victims to pay for their mess, and continue to drive drunk and uninsured in another state under another false name.

Once you break a law (illegally entering our country) and not only get away with it, but have a fair percentage of our citizens defending your "right" to do it, why bother obeying ANY laws you don't like?

yet they keep supporting this President who supports amnesty to those who break our Federal Law,

What amnesty bill is on the table right now? I am not aware of any...please back up your statement.

TamL - The Dream Act and Obama's dictatorial mandate to not deport some criminals unless they have been caught and convicted of even more crimes... both back-doors to the coming amnesty push.

Here's an idea.

Why on EARTH would anyone be stupid enough to make WORKING a crime?

The answer is that, statistically, we only make it a 'crime' for certain ethnic groups to work.

Make it LEGAL to pick pickles and only LEGAL PEOPLE will pick pickles. (Pickles don't make people 'illegal', politicians do.)

Cost to the taxpayers: ZERO.

Apoplectic reaction from bigots: priceless.

pjam, I see you're spreading falsehoods about the DREAM Act again.

When a child of three is carried across a border without a visa, or with a visa that expires six months later, only a monster would accuse the three year old of being a criminal.

The DREAM Act does NOT apply to anyone convicted of a crime. It allows Americans to serve in the military or go to college (at their OWN expense) and work and pay taxes while doing so.

Doesn't sound like you understand "illegal" either. Try again.

I know that is was "illegal" for a black man to cross a state line to escape slavery (see Dred Scott).

I know that Hitler made it "illegal" for Jews to work for a living in the Third Reich.

And I know that the Bible mandates (it is no mere 'suggestion') that the "alien among" you be subject to the SAME law as everyone else. Not a DIFFERENT law.

Our nation was founded on the priniciple that "All men are created equal" and endowed by their Creator with "unalienable" rights.

Our Founding Fathers had it right. The Bible has it right.

Alabama has it all wrong.

What part of UnConstitutional don't YOU understand?

We witnessed a police officer pull over an illegal immigrant because he was driving the WRONG WAY on the shoulder of a major highway. (There was a big traffic jam and this guy decided that instead of waiting through the slow traffic, he'd point his car toward oncoming highway traffic and drive a few hundred yards on the shoulder to the nearest offramp).

The police officer took photos of him, filled out a traffic citation and waited with him until the guy's licensed-driver friend arrived to drive his truck away for him. (By the way, it was a really nice truck -- looked new and very expensive). This unlicensed driver will simply pay his fine and jump back into his truck tomorrow and keep driving.

It makes me angry that my local and state government is completely ineffective at giving severe enough penalties for driving without a license that would actually deter illegal immigrants from driving unlicensed and uninsured.

For those of you who wring your hands about the plight of poor "undocumented workers" - how about sending some money to help out this police officer and his family instead?

Where is this guys medical insurance, where is his health care; the police force does have health care yes??? Why does he need a fund, charity?? Why isn't he afforded total health care..........because the health system is a "money" business not a "care" business.

This should be the real topic for discussion, not the the price of a jar of pickles.

We witnessed a police officer pull over an illegal immigrant because he was driving the WRONG WAY on the shoulder of a major highway.

And the officer allowed you to just wander over and get in the way of his inquiry?

Baloney.

It makes me angry

It makes me angry that some people just make things up and try to pass them off as the truth. It makes me sad is that other people are foolish enough to believe the lies.

Here is a fact for you The first illegal that was arrested in Marshall County, under Alabama's new anti-illegal law was a hispanic that was also wanted for child molestation!!!!! Nobody has to make up anything.

Its all in black and white just look it up!

Child molestation is against the law. Being Hispanic is not, no matter how much you wish it were, Michael.

John Wayne Gacy, child rapist and child murderer, not Hispanic, not African.

Jeffrey Dahmer, child rapist and cannibal, not Hispanic, not African.

Nobody has to make up anything. It's all, er, black is bad and white is good, right, Michael? And brown is the new black. Not AS bad, but easier to pick on, because "illegal alien" sounds so much more scary in modern times than "runaway slave".

The guy was arrested for having sex with a 12 year old, not for being Hispanic. After they arrested him, they added a charge of not carrying immigration papers with him.

Alabama's anti-immigrant law didn't help catch the criminal, nor did it stop the criminal from harming the child. It just made sure that the foreign-born criminal would suffer a greater penalty than a native-born child molester would, because, as far as Governor Bently is concerned, it's not so bad when a 'white' citizen molests a child?!? Sick. No matter WHO does it.

commonsense

Isador Amaya illegal in VA sentenced to 48 years for murder

Jorge Loredo illegal in VA sentenced to 4 years manslaughter

Santiago Jimenz in VA 25 years for rape

Carlos Hernandez illegal in VA 25 years for rape

Jose Sifuentes illegal in TX charged with the murder and molestation of 10 year old, the girl was his relative by marriage. Sifuentes had already been deported before.

Wanderson DaSilva-Neto illegal in MA hit and dragged an 11 year old girl. Neto already had an outstanding deportation order.

Eduardo Jaraleno illegal in Florida 10 years for attempted rape of 10 year old.

Pedro Cruz illegal in IL. charged with first degree murder

Luis Flamenco illegal in NY charged with murdering a woman in Walmart parking lot.

Carlos Montano illegal in VA found guilty of murder in DUI death of nun.

Rene Viramontes illegal in CA charged with child molestation

Jose Ayala illegal in CA charged with rape of 12 year old

Hugo Garcia illegal in CA charged with 9 felonies including rape and robbery

Carlos Pagoada illegal in TN charged with rape of a 9 year old

Jesus Trujillo illegal in CA convicted rapist served 10 years deported 3 times and arrested again during a traffic stop. The person driving the car was also an illegal and had already received a DUI in CA.

Eduardo Torres illegal in MA had previously been deported, charged with 6th DUI

Victor Rodriquez illegal in NE 20-40 years for 2 counts of vehicular homicide. He told the parents of the dead that it couldn't be helped.

Melvin Mercado illegal in PA charged wth rape.

Shall I go on. Im not making it up. Its all in the news and the illegals are bringing it all on themselves. If the immigration laws were upheld these pieces of garbage would not have been here to commit their crimes in the first place.

Go ahead with your ignorant blather but you prove over and over that you are biased towards the illegals and especially to the "brown ones".

..... throw his ass in jail or hire Americans .... its not the lawmakers job to supply that jerk with a work crew ...... or how about make a little less profit and hire Americans..... or how about we do without pickles ?

What don't you people understand about Alabamans who are unwilling to do the work? Harvesting is piece work, not hourly waged work. Laborers are paid based on how much they produce, you know, pay for performance. That is what Republicans push every day, pay for performance. If you want to earn the $16 an hour that the undocumented laborer gets then perform at his level. I seriously doubt any of you critics are ready to go out into the fields and work for a living. I've done it. It is hard work. harder than any American I know is willing to perform. Why do you think migratory workers have come to the US since the 1940s. tow work the harvests. Americans aren't willing to really bend their backs and work. Maybe the farmers who form the backbone of Alabama employment should mount a few recall elections and get some farmers in the state house instead of the suits. Fire the Republicans and hire the Democrats who care about the real people, not the corporations.

Olde Sarge,

Amen ! Luv ya, Olde Sarge !

We have relied on LEGAL, seasonal farm labor for years! They were NOT immigrants, they were workers on Farm Labor Visas. After a few seasons of working in the fields they started overstaying their visas and had to find other work to continue to live. And, so it started!

We still have these visas available. The problem is there are so many ILLEGALS coming across, looking for work, it is easier to hire them than to go through the legal channels.

Remember, less than 2% of the ILLEGAL ALIENS actually work in the fields. The other 98% are taking AMERICAN CITIZENS jobs, like washing dishes or flipping burgers or building houses or manicuring lawns or cleaning swimming pools and on and on...

Most of these jobs used to be taken by high school and college kids to make some extra money and/or put themselves through school. Now, they don't NEED that income because they can get student loans that the 99%, OWS crowd wants to not repay! It's a lot more fun getting high than sweating in the kitchen of some hamburger joint.

They get a degree in basket weaving and expect to be hired as CEO of some fortune 500 company! They scream about inequality but would be first in line for a $150K/year job.

In a way, I can empathise with them. Who wants to work side-by-side with an ILLEGAL ALIEN? What kind of motivation is that? Not only am I doing some crap job, I'm working next to a criminal who has no right to be here! They should be working with their peers, competing, gaining work experience and interpersonal skills.

It is simple: There is no constitutional Authority for the POTUS OR DOJ to pick and choose which laws to enforce. They are bound, by their oath of office, to enforce all laws enacted by Congress.

Enforce the laws, secure our border and the ILLEGAL ALIENS will self-deport at no cost to the tax payers. Prosecute States, Cities, Landlords, Churches and Employers who aid and abet ILLEGAL ALIENS, a FELONY...

Give the USA back to its CITIZENS...

We still have these visas available.

And they are fully utilized every year. There is not enough of them for the demand.

Robopoopalot, speaking of cesspools...

Oh, never mind.

I'd like to see some of those idiot politicians, or the deadbeat bigots who fall for their propaganda, out working in those fields. It would do them all some good.

TamL:

Please provide a source for that statement... What we don't have is enough "farmers" willing to go through the paperwork to hire them!

Nearly half of the farm laborers are ILLEGAL (48%) according to one report.

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-04-13/politics/immigration.agriculture_1_farm-workers-visa-program-agricultural-industry?_s=PM:POLITICS

In 1956 a picker made as much as $30 for a 12-hour day pitching peas into a viner. I went to the inflation calculator at the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. It says $30 is like $237 today.

Today, a good picker working a 12 hour day can make $120, even $150 per day.

So, farmers today are paying pickers $120 to $150 a day for work that earned this farmer the equivalent of $237 in 1956.

Old Sarge: Well Said!!

Please provide a source for that statement... What we don't have is enough "farmers" willing to go through the paperwork to hire them!

Actually you are right, I was thinking of the HB1 visa program that a friend of mine uses for a resort busines, I didn't realize it was different until after I had already posted.

commonsense....

Robopoopalot, speaking of cesspools...

the truth hurts, I guess...nocommonsense

What part of the immigration laws are hurting our economy don't you understand? People want to have a deeper discussion on the law and its economic impact and the closed border people want to discuss a definition.

If people want to be shallow and parrot slogans perhaps they should stay in the kiddie pool and leave the deep stuff for the adults.

Good point, Mr. Jones.

Labor is a small part of the cost per pickle. Doubling it to a living wage would not affect the total cost much.

George - $10 an hour is, or should be, a living wage for a lot of people. When did this country start believing that everyone should live in a mansion and have a yacht?

George-2463560:

Please define a "living wage".

NVArt, when was the last time you tried to live on $10.00 an hour? It's virtually impossible if you want what we consider a decent standard of living. Just out of curiousity, what do you make? I'll bet it's more than that.

$10 per hour is doable in Alabama. The cost of living isn't as high there as say, California or New York. It isn't great, but it is better than minimum wage. I am not saying every job in Alabama pay $10 per hour, but for this work it is appropriate.

You guys (both sides) all overlook something: Danford is saying he can't afford to pay $10 an hour (the going rate for American labor) -- he was paying his illegals even less than $10 an hour! The fact is, food is as cheap as it is in this country today because we (not just Danford, but indirectly our entire society) have been paying food pickers way less than a living wage. We get away with doing this by hiring desperate people from Mexico and keeping them "illegal." Then we add insult to injury by falsely calling them welfare parasites and so on.

A "living wage" should be enough to afford 3 square healthy meals a day, a clean/safe place to sleep/shower(rent?), decent clothes, basic health care, and transportation(even if just a bus pass).

The cost of living being higher than what many people make, is the problem.

Health care doesn't need to cost as much as it does. Becoming rich off of people who need medical care, is wrong(IMO).

That's why many with less $ and no insurance are going to other countries for their health care.